Are these ebike batteries legitimate or questionable?

[nukezero]

I am considering buying a nicer looking battery pack for my ebike build (aluminum case) and came across some new offerings. I have to wonder about it's high capacity claims (15-20ah) in such a small form factor as well as its battery chemistry. Especially the skinny one at 20Ah, that seems highly questionable doesn't it?

Does anyone have any experience with them or whether or not they are even worth taking a chance at?

Conhismotor and Asian-resources.com eBay vendors - I guess it may be safer to go through eBay as it may be easier to get my money back but I can't help but wonder if these batteries are what they claim.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/2013-New-48V-20AH-Li-ion-Battery-with-Black-Flat-Aluminium-Case-Charger-and-BMS-/181182925439?pt=US_Rechargeable_Batteries&hash=item2a2f580a7f

http://www.ebay.com/itm/2013-Latest-Big-Capacity-Li-ion-Battery-48V-20AH-with-Aluminium-Case-BMS-Charger-/230965500369?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item35c69dd9d1

 

[MadRhino]

What they claim is perfectly realistic for 2c Lifepo4 pouch cells.
Not saying that what they say it is is effectively what they ship, yet their feedback is good.

 

[bowlofsalad]

I am unfamiliar with those vendors myself, ebay could be anything. It's not like those names are trademarked or something. I assume you have questionable thoughts on a vendor, if it's reputation is unknown or negative, I'd avoid buying from them unless you can afford to lose the money in that purchase and rebuy from somewhere else.

There are tons of options and ways to make a box, some folks don't like to break a nail when putting a little effort into a task, and I can understand that. But if you are seeking to buy a battery JUST for the way it looks, that might be a little silly. You could probably save by making the box yourself or even having a box made for you out of all kinds of different materials. Wood, plastic, steel, aluminum, whatever suits you, there are many options and routes here. There is something to be said about buying for fashion over function.

Many people put a lot of effort into making something look really attractive, but on the inside the contents were trash or worthless. This frame of thought may yield a lot of wisdom to you if you understand how to apply it. Things that look both good and work good are often substantially more expensive than things that just work good. Often, though, features are cut out because of the appearances they give. Personally, I think the route is to buy the better functioning battery and make the container yourself.

An important missing detail in both of those ebay ads (I may have missed it) is the chemistry of the battery packs.

To further illustrate, a lifepo4 battery costs 658 from pingbattery (not including shipping). This doesn't involve a "pretty" looking box either. Lots of people have enjoyed batteries from ping and they were what was claimed.

The bottom line is, you get what you pay for. Do not be fooled by a pretty box.

 

[Eujangles]

I doubt they are LifePO4 due to the weight (should be a bit heavier than that for 20AH in my experience), but if they are LiCoMn then yes, all that sounds about right. Pricey though, might be worth checking out what http://www.bmsbattery.com has to offer; they have lots of LiCoMn packs as well as LifePO4.

 

[wesnewell]

Both are lico, not lifepo4. Both made with the same specs, 13s4p using 5ah lipo cells. Both have a bms. The second one has a better bms imo since it has a 30A output compared to only 20A for the first one. Either should work well. Take you pick. The second one appears to be better imo.

 

[nukezero]

Thanks guys. These are probably a hit or miss. $500-600 bucks is too much to take a gamble on. The house will probably win on this one.

 

[dogman dan]

Lico does not = LiCoMn. Chances are they are the latter. (safer) Soon enough, we'll be raving how good these are, once we sort out which vendor to buy from. My main objection to stuff like this has always been that 10 ah is a tad small for the more high powered bike typical in the USA. This is why I never liked the frog battery, for example. But 20 ah, that small and light, yeah, that'll work.

Somebody has to go first, just like we did with Li Ping 5 years ago. Even with the best vendors, they get their cells from a china factory, so sometimes you lose. Cell looked good leaving the factory, but croaks in a few months instead of years. It happens.

 

[nukezero]

Lico does not = LiCoMn. Chances are they are the latter. (safer) Soon enough, we'll be raving how good these are, once we sort out which vendor to buy from. My main objection to stuff like this has always been that 10 ah is a tad small for the more high powered bike typical in the USA. This is why I never liked the frog battery, for example. But 20 ah, that small and light, yeah, that'll work.

Somebody has to go first, just like we did with Li Ping 5 years ago. Even with the best vendors, they get their cells from a china factory, so sometimes you lose. Cell looked good leaving the factory, but croaks in a few months instead of years. It happens.

"somebody has to go first" lol... when you say that, reminds me of watching a movie years ago when they push a guy first off a cliff over to the other side. :lol:

 

[wesnewell]

With the specs given they could be one of several chemistries, lifepo4 not being one of them. My guess would be LCO (LiCoO2) because its nominal voltages is always stated as 3.7V afaik, and both list this as nominal voltage. One list LI-PO, but that doesn't really mean anything without clarification. Otherwise they could be LMO (LiMn2O4), NMC (LiNiMnCoO2), or some other chemistry. LCO has the highest energy density of all and is the cheapest. And that would maximize profits for a company. If I were interested in buying one of those packs, I'd ask this question of them. What is the battery chemistry, LCO, LMO, NMC, or other?
Ref:
http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/the_high_power_lithium_ion
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium-ion_battery

 

[dogman dan]

I couldn't agree more. If they won't disclose the chemistry to me, I would not send a dime. If they reply that it's lipoly, that doesn't tell you jack.

I was nervous as a cat on a hot tin roof buying that first ping in 08, but at least I knew I was getting 1c lifepo4.

I run Lico/ RC lipo now. But I know what I have, and act accordingly.

As to guessing the chemistry by weight, that means assuming the capacity is stated honestly. For sure, we know its not lifepo4, unless they overstated the capacity a LOT.

 

[MikeFairbanks]

eBay has guarantees that will help you if things don't go right.

My wife and I use American Express to buy stuff. They have a 90-day unconditional guarantee up to a thousand dollars. They are really good about honoring it. Backed us up many, many times.

 

[nukezero]

I decided not to chance these batteries given the risk. It is China after all and better to pay a middle man over here to buy in bulk and resell at a higher price than a complete loss.

For this 48V15Ah battery, the seller told me it is LiMn2O4 if any of you are interested. I already ordered a Sunthing28 ebay bare pack 36V15Ah LifePo4 for my girlfriend and that's coming with sea shipping in another month. I'll probably pair that with E-BikeKit. Sunthing28 seems to have good reviews here already and it has the best price/Ah ratio of any LifePo4 I've seen. Only problem is it is pouch cells and not 18650s. I don't know which is better but I would think pouch cells may have a tendency to swell.

I just witnessed her riding a electric bike and she was so freaked out, "like it has a life of its own!". I even think the 36V may still be too much for her. She probably needs to run at 12V :lol: :lol: .

http://www.ebay.com/itm/48V-15AH-Lithium-Ion-Battery-for-Electric-Bike-Conversion-kit-/390637086975?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_2&hash=item5af3c8e8ff

 

[nukezero]

Can someone tell me why there are two discharge ports on the bottom of the battery?

I see a - - + + ?? Why would you have two discharge ports like that? Also, my battery also has four discharge ports like that but it is + empty empty - . He also includes 2 bottom brackets which seems to not make sense to me. Those brackets seem to just perhaps change the polarity sign. But I would think one would need to open up the terminals and swap it over.

 

[wesnewell]

Perhaps to double the amperage rating of the connector, and/or improve connections.

 

[nukezero]

I just received a response from conhismotor on eBay. He tells me the slim battery 48V20Ah chemistry is Li-NiCoMn. But I thought that Li-NiCoMn batteries operate at 3.3V or is that just for cylindrical cells? Pouch cells operate at 3.7V?

Is the battery voltage related to the chemistry of the battery or related to the shape/form of the battery such as being cylindrical or pouch? Anyways, does anyone believe it is Li-NiCoMn as he states? He does mention that LiFePo4 would be a much bigger battery than this.

If it is indeed Li-NCM, then it is a good battery being high density/weight ratio.

 

[wesnewell]

http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/the_high_power_lithium_ion

 

[nukezero]

http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/the_high_power_lithium_ion

Okay, so it does seem like LI-NiCoNm is one of the best compromises of all. It has the discharge power of Manganese and the density of cobalt.

Here's the part I got confused. It says to not keep the cells at 4.2V too much (which is fully charged) as this can reduce life. Yet in another note, it says to frequently charge the Lithium battery to prolong it's life. Ok, so I am assuming you want to charge it to 80% instead of 100% then.

*edit: I just answered my own question here. This is an even better read: http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/how_to_prolong_lithium_based_batteries

It sounds like it is best to have a charger with a switch that can charge 50%, 80%, 90%, and 100%. 50% for long-term storage. It's best to charge it frequently but don't charge to 100%. For every 0.1V drop, you can double cycle life. So it's almost like it's best to take a ride out, drain 50-70% battery, but don't drain completely. Yet when you come back, don't charge it back up either. Wait until you are about to go out, charge it up to 80% then stop there and take the ride out. By staying between maybe 40-80% capacity, one would get the maximum possible cycle life.

 

[wesnewell]

Most people charge to 4.1v and discharge to no more than 3.6V resting. There's all kinds of ways to extend battery life and I ignore most of them because I don't really care that much. I charge to 4.2V almost always. I leave my pack on the bike most of the time in the garage that gets up to 120+F during the summer. That's probably the worst thing for it, but I've got over a year and 4000miles on it and I can't see any deterioration yet. If you really want to preserve life charge to 4.1V and only discharge to 3.7V or more resting. Try and keep your pack in a cool place. Most important probably is to never do a full charge inside where it's cool and then place outside where it's hotter and let sit. That's one thing I don't even do. Cell voltage will climb in the heat. I also don't over discharge. I think that's worse than doing a full charge.

 

[dogman dan]

There's the rub. Do you want to hop on and ride anytime, or do you want to have to wait 30 min or more to get going?

It just depends on how your needs go. For me, at least one battery in my stash is simply going to have to be kept fully charged ready to ride. But I now practice the compromise, of charging to 4.1v, so it should help it last a few months more.

EM3ev now has a charger that does a 50% storage charge, 90%, and 100% charge levels with a flick of a switch. I have one, and like it a LOT. I am thinking though, about diddling with one of the settings, to have a 70% storage charge, making a quicker turn around from storage to ready to ride. 30 min to go time, I could tolerate that now that I am retired.

Decent price on a fairly large capacity LiNiCoMn in a hard case sounds pretty attractive to me. Hopefully you may soon see these on sale at a reasonable mark up from vendors in the USA.

I've kind of wished ping would just offer his packs in a good box. Pouch cells do need some extra protection. Pouch cells vary in voltage by chemistry. In general, a round cell can coax a bit more discharge rate than pouches of the exact same type, because of compression.

A pouch cell sunthing pack should be fine. It should tolerate being kept on the charger 24-7 for at least 3-4 years. Lifepo4 is supposedly more tolerant of staying fully charged. Leaving it on the charger for extended periods at least once a week is recommended, to allow it to fully balance.

 

[RICK]

I'm on the 4th season with my 48v 15ah ping and its on the charger whenever i'm not riding. No noticeable degradation yet, but then I don't normally stress it much. One ride this season used 12ah.

 

[RICK]

I'm on the 4th season with my 48v 15ah ping and its on the charger whenever i'm not riding. No noticeable degradation yet, but then I don't normally stress it much. One ride this season used 12ah.

 

[Dan_81]

Hi,

this might have come as too late for you however, I purchased a battery from conhismotor on ebay and got completely scammed.

They sent me a second hand battery that did not even look like the photo. The manufacturer sticker were all removed and there was no discharge port included (contrary to the item description). Please for your own sake avoid conhismotor on Ebay.

If you look at the ebay feedback you will see it is currently sitting at approx 92% which means that approx 1/11 people are getting scammed by these people.

I have raised a dispute with paypal and hope to get my money back....however as you would appreciate this is time consuming.

These guys also trade on ebay under the name 3wconhismotor...probably because they scammed too many people in the original account and had to set up a new one.

 

[Jason27]

Add taobao, ev assemble, and v power from ebay to that scammer list. Chinese warehouses are full of old batteries they sell to Americans. I cant believe people are still getting scammed like that.

 

[dogman dan]

That's why the list of china based battery vendors we trust is so short. Some guy on Ebay, with some brand of battery. Could have been produced in 2008 for all you know. Or after you order, he goes and buys,,, something.

Pingbattery, EM3ev, and... No others that really can match their CS. Hobby King for the RC lipo. If you can find what you want in stock. Good luck now ( spring) with that.

 

[TheBeastie]

So when you say you got "completely scammed" did they even send you a battery first time around or was it just not what you expected?