axle and nut materials (should i use lubricant or threadlock?)

[jimmyhackers]

was looking for some bolts for my lathe, found this article

High Tensile Bolts vs Stainless Steel Bolts - What's the Difference

Learn about the differences between high tensile bolts and stainless steel bolts, including corrosion resistance, strength, and price.

blog.thepipingmart.com

"It is important to note that installation considerations should be taken into account when using either type of bolt. Proper installation requires using a lubricant such as anti-seize on high tensile bolts, while stainless steel bolts require thread sealant or a specific type of washer, depending on the application. Failure to use proper lubricants or thread sealants can cause premature failure due to excessive friction during installation or operation, resulting in stripped threads or broken heads or nuts."

made me wonder, i have a 1000w 48v 9c clone motor running on a 1500w 72v esc.....and i would guess the axle is some sort of high tensile steel and the nut seems to be an electrolized coated steel. common sense says threadlock, but that article hints/points towards lubricant. what should i be using, lubricant or threadlock?

note: im currently not using anything and havnt had any real problems.

 

[DogDipstick]

Threadlock. Threaklock it.

 

[motomech]

I use medium Threadlock and don't clean the threads when I have the axle nut off, just add a little more. It builds up some "junk" which doesn't "lock" the nut on, but requires a wrench to twist it off.

 

[Chalo]

I put a little dab of grease on axle threads, hub motors and ordinary wheels alike, and tighten firmly with flat washers. Every metal to metal mechanical fit on the bike benefits from lubrication. A greased thread clamps harder for the same tool torque than a dry thread does.

Threadlocker is for high amplitude cyclic vibration applications (which ours is not) or for people who don't properly tighten fasteners. If you really need it, you're really doing something wrong.

 

[DogDipstick]

for high amplitude cyclic vibration applications (which ours is not) or for peop

Huh learn something every day.. I wonder why many manufacturers insist upon it on things that rotate. Since lockwire aint a thing anymore.

Lol.

Loctite was a revolution imo.

Why is riding a bike not a "" h.a.c.v."? I would think it was. i can put a accelero gyro on my bike.. ( take bout an hour) ( or five min with a cell phone 3 axis app) and see the ... amplitude of the .. vibrations.. but you are saying I wont see anything? Huh. Learn somtiang everdayz.

Jesus nuts... body panels... cranks. gears. heads. Blocks. Stators. Errythang. i put that shit on errathan. For me, a mechanic, its i cheap insurance for vehicles that I send away to people who dont even own a ratchet.

I do insist on oil or something on head bolts that tty or even head studs.. the change in the value of applied tork can easily be calculated fo sho.

Chalo.
..... you should see my fathers turbine fasteners spreadsheet,. Chalo. its amazing. Used in just about all GE turbines. All tht engineerin gimickery. Since the 70s. Spec. The math on it. the angles. The drawings. Its so much complication over simple fasteners its silly. Lol.

 

[DogDipstick]

(which ours is not)

Ok, given the chassis of the system is what is in question.. ( is being fastener applied .. ie bolted together)...

Couldnt the motor itself ( the electrical traction mover) make a harmonic vibration in the PWM distribution of the tork waves to the stator and henceforth to the frame? Given commutation style ( sine, trap, square, etc)..

We know manufacturers go to extreme ( expensive ) means of stabilizing the harmonic reverberations of servos and steppers in application ( like Vexta or Oriental motor) to keep both, the electrical harmonics, and the tork harmonics, ( mechanical reverberation, ie what you hear when you put a ear to a motor).. to a minimum in high precision machinery ( sub four digit MAZAKs and FANUCS)? Vibration of motors, is a big thing, that is designed around, on high end stuff certainly... ( such as, as you might know, it, ball screw whip).

I know you have keen understanding of a certain nature. Ie machinery and stuff. I use locktight cause of the possibility of chaos in the system.. the imbalance that will (cyclically, or cycloidal?) vibrate, meet another critical rpm, and reverberate upon a system ( chassis).

Thanks for the education ch ch ch Chalo.

 

[Chalo]

Huh learn something every day.. I wonder why many manufacturers insist upon it on things that rotate. Since lockwire aint a thing anymore.

Cheap insurance against "people who don't properly tighten fasteners", or a bodge to compensate for faulty design that needs more securing than the fastener is good for, or which would be damaged by sufficient tension.

A great example is Spoke Prep, linseed oil, or similar adhesive to lock spoke nipples. If you use enough spoke tension for the load being carried and the spoke gauge, threadlocker doesn't help. If you don't get the spokes tight enough, use spokes that are too thick, use a rim that can't tolerate the requisite tension, or have tight and loose spots in the wheel, threadlocker can help keep the wheel from falling apart. But the root problem isn't lack of threadlocker; it's faulty wheel construction.

 

[nicobie]

The best mechanix I've ever met once told me that every fastener should get either thread lock or never seize.

 

[Chalo]

The best mechanix I've ever met once told me that every fastener should get either thread lock or never seize.

Sure. But note that all torque specs and tables are predicated on dry fasteners. I lube everything unless there's a darn good reason not to do so, but I interpret torque values accordingly.

 

[jimmyhackers]

been having a think about this, a liquid threadlocker.....while still liquid also has a lubricating effect, with the added bonus of drying out to remove said lubricating effect.
it says it inhibits rust aswel (like oil/grease), thus aiding in ease of unassembly.

the only downside i see in oil/grease in that it never dries...this stickyness has more potential to trap dirt over time.

as perviously said im using neither atm....and its been fine, i guess my right arms a pretty good torque meter

im really looking for a solution to stopping regen from undoing axle nuts over time and chewing my axles/dropouts....so i can turn the regen feature back on.
it would appear i need some custom axle clamping torque arms for that.

 

[DogDipstick]

You are... really looking for a solution to stopping regen from undoing axle nuts over time and chewing my axles/dropouts....so i can turn the regen feature back on...?

Might try lockwire. I lockwire all mine after the threadlocker.

I mean, if it is required for race tech inspections.. I figure Imight as well do it since I .. race around alot.

I dont even use a double nut or even a full single nut. I use a half nut. The little lock nut only. See pic. you can see the spiral lock wire on this pic.

....there is a reason all motorcycle racing requires it. On anything that moves, or holds a fluid.

Lockwire looks cool too. I got a milling machine so I can mill flats and drill half a mm holes and stuff no prob without breaking drills.

Lol.

 

[DogDipstick]

Sure. But note that all torque specs and tables are predicated on dry fasteners. I lube everything unless there's a darn good reason not to do so, but I interpret torque values accordingly.

NO they are not. I just told you my dads fastener tork spreadsheet is used in power plants all over the world, and does certainly take temp, friction, fastener lubricant, base material, and size of the loaded bearing face angle into account.

Wanna see it? I'll post it right here.

ARP, Summit, and others post fastener tork charts modified for assy lube, oil, or other things you are to dip you new superduper headsuds into for reaching the designed and engineered tork for the fastener.

You wanna see the spreadsheet? Its a tool. A very good one. One that... many power stations pay big money for to this day.

Hell yes they take fastener lube into account. Those charts. Find them if you havnt. they are out there.

goddamn you never did a ARP headstud on a racing block have ya.

Do it. C'Mon. Dont just say " the charts dont have the info.."

We dont have " charts anymore. We got goddamn spreadsheets.

Ok /rant.

 

[DogDipstick]

Here you can see how I lockwire my axles. F+R.


I lockwire all my customers bikes too. This Super73 had strong regen, and a 150A controller. I plaaced a hardened insert into the dropout ( milled in) and then used the OEM S73 pinchers ( aluminum pinch plate) ( and a locking tab washer) ...and this bike went to its happy owner with no problems. Here if you look close you see both big axle nuts are drilled, and lock wired on.

If it : Moves, holds something that moves, holds fluids, or... needs to look cool. I lock wire that shit up. For sure. Lol.

 

[jimmyhackers]

i dont think lockwire would help much with regards to regen tbh.

unless i tensioned two bits of wire on the same nut in opposite directions, probably not even then.

i think the constant shifting between acceleration and regen would eventually fatigue snap the lockwires anyway.

as ive found with even good torque arms. the m14x10 slotted cutout still has some play/gap between the flats surfaces which is a where this play and chewing can start to occur. some sort of physical clamp force on these flats is what is really need.

edit: you posted your post while i was typing this out....cool bike.

 

[Chalo]

NO they are not. I just told you my dads fastener tork spreadsheet is used in power plants all over the world, and does certainly take temp, friction, fastener lubricant, base material, and size of the loaded bearing face angle into account.

Sure, if you're using data for a given lubricant, you can get either lube-specific torque specs or a modifier ratio to apply to the dry torque spec. The reason it isn't usual to have a lubricated torque spec is because each different kind of lube has a different effect on fastener torque, while dry fasteners are more consistent. So if you look up, say, torque values for class 10.9 bolts in M8x1.25 size, you'll find dry fastener values because the lubricant isn't specified.