Best Practices: Caring for Ping Battery

[Anthony King]

I'm about to do my first build and the last part I'm waiting for is my battery. I chose a 36V 20Ah from Ping and chose the 5A charger.

I've never spent so much money on a battery in my life, and I'm keen to care for it as well as possible. Are the included BMS and charger adequate? Are there any extra steps one should take to ensure optimal battery life?

 

[999zip999]

Connect the bms and charge the battery till all led's light up. I would do a few like cycles and limit to 22 amps draw on the controller. Good battery if you don't use a 40 amp controller it will slowly kill it.
It's best to tell us what you are going to use on. Yes all the info on the motor and controller. So it dosn't suck the life out of it.

 

[999zip999]

Welcome to E.S.

 

[Anthony King]

Connect the bms and charge the battery till all led's light up. I would do a few like cycles and limit to 22 amps draw on the controller. Good battery if you don't use a 40 amp controller it will slowly kill it.
It's best to tell us what you are going to use on. Yes all the info on the motor and controller. So it dosn't suck the life out of it.

Thank you. I'm using an eZee front hub on a cargo bike. 20A controller. Intended use detailed here.

 

[dogman dan]

Sounds perfect.

The "break in" for batteries like a ping is to leave them on the charger till they balance. On the ping, that's all the lights on the bms lit. The charger may cycle on and off for quite some time before all the bms lights go on. The bms is bringing down the highest cells when the green light on the charger is on, then it turns back on to try to charge the cells that have the bms lights off. After that, I still recommend that you make the first few rides very short, then put the battery back on charge till all the bms lights are lit.

This just makes sure that your battery is really really fully charged. My experience, is that when all the lights start lighting up closer to the same time, your battery is now broken in (just balancing better) and ready for long rides.

After the break in, go ahead and leave it on the charger overnight, or till all the led's light up fairly regular. You can ride around after a partial charge if you have a need to, but try to make every charge a full one, till all the leds light. As the battery ages, this might start taking overnight to do it.

Don't be afraid to ride till the bms shuts off the battery when you need to. But if you can charge, do it. The battery will stay better balanced if it is not discharged deeply each ride. So if your daily ride takes 30% of the battery, don't go and ride three days then charge. Just charge daily.

I highly recommend protecting the battery a bit more than the way it came. Dings and chafing can ruin it. I like to custom make a little box for it, that fits super tight. I made the first one from a cookie sheet, but later learned to use plastic and tape to make boxes. Lids to plastic storage boxes work good, and so do old political signs. Fix it so any rubbing around takes the abrasion on the outside, leaving the inside protected from whatever is in the box or bag your are using. One little pebble in there, and it can rub a hole in the battery.

 

[alfantastic]

I'm about to do my first build and the last part I'm waiting for is my battery. I chose a 36V 20Ah from Ping and chose the 5A charger.

I've never spent so much money on a battery in my life, and I'm keen to care for it as well as possible. Are the included BMS and charger adequate? Are there any extra steps one should take to ensure optimal battery life?

I've been using a Ping 48v 15Ah for the last 2 years on a regular basis.
Plenty of 30A peaks drawn over around 2000 miles.
It's never let me down and after the initial balancing of the cells i.e. all red LED's lit, it balances ever time without leaving it on the charger for hours.
Maybe I've been lucky by getting perfect cells in the pack, so I would definitely make sure to charge yours after use until all red LED's are lit.

I've only ever let the battery run down to BMS cutoff once in the battery's life. That was coz I forgot to charge it after resetting my CA... Oooooops
So the best tips I would recommend are:

1) Always keep it on the charger until all LED's are lit.
2) Never go beyond a 2C discharge. Peaks over this are fine, but not constant.
3) Never discharge to BMS cutoff. The battery sags massively anyway near empty, so no need to discharge so far.

Enjoy one of the best and cost effective batteries available

 

[gogo]

Dogman gives good advice about the fragility issues. I'd add that its a bundle of pouches and you should think of it that way. You need to create an exoskeleton that will protect every pouch within it. The way its shipped is good enough if you leave it sitting on the floor. You are bouncing it around on a bike.

Electrically, be aware its a collection of pouches arranged in parallel and then in series. Get your head around what the failure of an individual pouch would mean.

Find out how to measure the voltage of the individual cell groups using the balance plug wires. Don't just blindly trust lights going on and off. Trust, yet verify with a volt meter.

Here's what I wish Le Ping would have stated explicitly: The power to run the BMS board is supplied from one group of cells. Find out which and pay close attention to it (them) by checking their voltage compared to the neighbors' (or any other in the pack). At a minimum, you should occasionally check two voltages, the BMS supply group's and one other. Its a weak link in the design. All he told me was to unplug the BMS if the battery would be stored, he didn't specify why, only that it would be a drain on 'the battery'.

 

[USAEBIKECO]

Make sure to put the battery in a pouch or protective bag. Don't drop it, and use a surge protector for charging.

 

[Rassy]

I know Ping offers a faster charge option, i.e. 5 amps vs 2 amps. But everything I've ever been told about batteries of almost every chemistry is that slow charging is better for the battery than fast charging. With that in mind, I have always stuck with the 2 amp chargers for my Ping batteries, and would only recommend the faster charger if your usage required it.

I added this comment for other readers of this thread, since the op has already purchased the 5 amp charger. Any comments by others on this issue would be appreciated.

 

[dnmun]

the 5A charger is best because it has the switch to turn the charger off when it is plugged into the AC. after the charger is plugged into the AC, then turn the switch on to turn on the charger, and then finally plug the battery into the charger. always follow that sequence.

there is nothing unusual about how the BMS circuit current comes off of the #4 on the ping packs. all the BMSs do that.

if you think it too much trouble to unplug the sense wire plug when you store the battery over the winter then you can charge it every few months for a few days. leave it on the charger until all the leds light up again each time.

 

[Anthony King]

Everything I've ever been told about batteries of almost every chemistry is that slow charging is better for the battery than fast charging.

Good point. Unfortunately I only thought about that after I asked for the faster charger. It might not be too late to change my order. Ping is building my battery in a long skinny configuration to fit in my Xtracycle bag.

Find out how to measure the voltage of the individual cell groups using the balance plug wires. Don't just blindly trust lights going on and off. Trust, yet verify with a volt meter.

This makes sense abstractly but I'm not entirely sure how to do it. I'll have to wait until I have the battery in front of me. I need a mutimeter for this, no?

The power to run the BMS board is supplied from one group of cells. Find out which and pay close attention to it (them) by checking their voltage compared to the neighbors' (or any other in the pack). At a minimum, you should occasionally check two voltages, the BMS supply group's and one other. Its a weak link in the design. All he told me was to unplug the BMS if the battery would be stored, he didn't specify why, only that it would be a drain on 'the battery'.

Gotcha.

After that, I still recommend that you make the first few rides very short, then put the battery back on charge till all the bms lights are lit.

OK, could someone quantify the "short" "few" break in rides. How much discharge should I aim for? How many rides?

Never discharge to BMS cutoff.

I have a CA and can program that to cut off the battery when 20% is left, no? I have read this is best to prolong the battery life. This will avoid hitting the BMS cutoff threshold, correct?

Dogman gives good advice about the fragility issues. I'd add that its a bundle of pouches and you should think of it that way. You need to create an exoskeleton that will protect every pouch within it.

You're not talking about separating the pouches and creating small cases for each, and then a case for the assembled pouches are you? Or are you? Should the case be made so that it houses the BMS as well as the battery.

Thank you for all the responses.

 

[dnmun]

maybe you did not notice. there is nothing wrong with using a 5A charger and that charger is better than most.

it does not hurt the battery to discharge it to the LVC of the BMS. it does help to recharge as soon as possible when this happens but it does not make the battery unstable or harder to balance.

when you ask for free advice, you get what you pay for.

 

[alfantastic]

maybe you did not notice. there is nothing wrong with using a 5A charger and that charger is better than most.

it does not hurt the battery to discharge it to the LVC of the BMS. it does help to recharge as soon as possible when this happens but it does not make the battery unstable or harder to balance.

when you ask for free advice, you get what you pay for.

I forgot to mention in my original post that I use Ping's 5A charger with my 48v 15Ah, and there have been no issues whatsoever. Excellent charger

I did also say that never discharge to BMS cutoff, but not for reasons of damaging the battery. You will find that the battery sags so badly for the last 1Ah, that you will want to head back to homebase.

 

[Anthony King]

it does not hurt the battery to discharge it to the LVC of the BMS. it does help to recharge as soon as possible when this happens but it does not make the battery unstable or harder to balance.

Just curious, what is the LVC of the BMS?

 

[gogo]

Dogman gives good advice about the fragility issues. I'd add that its a bundle of pouches and you should think of it that way. You need to create an exoskeleton that will protect every pouch within it.

You're not talking about separating the pouches and creating small cases for each, and then a case for the assembled pouches are you? No.Or are you? Should the case be made so that it houses the BMS as well as the battery. The BMS is secured at the top of the battery and as far as I know, its fine there.

Thank you for all the responses.

What Ping sells is what I'd term a 'basic' configuration. This keeps cost of construction and shipping down. Its up to you to understand the limitations of that 'basic' construction and if you need more than that for your application. If you leave it sitting on a flat surface and never touch or move it you can leave it as is.

If you want to attach it to a bike and jostle it about, you'll need to account for that. For instance, corners and ends are likely to need the most protection if you're moving it on and off the bike. The enclosure should be uniform so that pressure is evenly distributed, meaning don't wedge it in a pre-made container that has slightly angled sides. Lining the enclosure with foam is good, but the foam on the bottom needs to bear the weight of the pack, and the sides need to be able to keep it firmly in place both when cold and when swelled slightly when hot. Don't use an enclosure that has 'roundy' corners next to the battery unless you are able to somehow leave the foam out there. Ping's batteries aren't like lead acid types that are designed to be tolerant of being slammed about.

dnmun seems to know the most about this stuff, so I'd commit that advice about charger sequence to memory if I were you, or write it down where you can read it when needed.

 

[GSteg]

I've been running the 36v20ah ping battery with the 5A charger for a while now and all is fine. A 0.25C charge rate is not going to be damaging at all so you're fine there.

 

[dnmun]

i agree about this need to protect the corners of the pack. i also recommend removing the shrink wrap and using hardboard endplates. usually there is duck tape around the pack and as the pack swells with age the middle of the endpouches is pushed out and you can see the ends bulging from shrink wrap. i feel this distortion of the pouches is damaging and should be prevented by removing the duck tape and putting the hardboard endplates on and then clamping in some wood clamps to put under compression and then wrapping with duck tape around the endplates to keep it under compression as the pouches expand.

if you look at this picture you will see that i have unsoldered the tab and stood it up and cut out the space in between the two cells in series that were attached previously through the pcb subconnector. as the pouches swell it pulls on the tabs, sideways in order for the tabs to remain stuck in the connector. by cutting it i can release the stress on the tabs and stop the damage at this point and now the battery is only subject to the normal aging process and not from the physical distortion of the pack which i feel leads to damage of the electrode/separator layers and causes premature death of the pouch.

in order to make the series connection again i use short pieces of wire with a flex in the middle so the pouches can continue to expand without pulling on the tabs.

this is the dead pack i bot from wineboy, which had two bad cells which i have already removed in an attempt to use the remainder in building another battery from these cells and more that i buy to add to them. this is not difficult but most people do not wanna attempt it but i have several batteries i have built from just such remnants of dead ping packs.

i have a few rebuilt ping packs from the old old 4Ah pouches that still produce the original 12Ah after being repaired like this.

 

[gogo]

The power to run the BMS board is supplied from one group of cells.

there is nothing unusual about how the BMS circuit current comes off of the #4 on the ping packs. all the BMSs do that.

Not complaining, just saying. It seems to have been drawing off #7 or #8 (depending on which end you designate as 1) on my 48V20AH rectangular Ping. How would one figure that out on any particular battery?

The reason I'm assuming its #7 or #8 on mine is that it's the only one that reads different (now zero volts) while the BMS has been plugged in for 3 years.

you think it too much trouble to unplug the sense wire plug when you store the battery over the winter then you can charge it every few months for a few days. leave it on the charger until all the leds light up again each time.

The mistake I made was that I thought I could monitor the total battery voltage to make sure leaving the BMS plugged on wasn't creating a problem. If I'd have understood the draw was off one cell group I'd have monitored that voltage.

 

[dnmun]

no the circuit current does not come from #7 or #8. it comes from the top of #4. if you have a dead cell on #8 then it could have been caused by a short in the shunt transistor on #8 that allowed the cell to drain down to 0V. you would have seen the led lit for a long time after the other went off. that woulda told you right away it was bad.

 

[gogo]

no the circuit current does not come from #7 or #8. it comes from the top of #4. if you have a dead cell on #8 then it could have been caused by a short in the shunt transistor on #8 that allowed the cell to drain down to 0V. you would have seen the led lit for a long time after the other went off. that woulda told you right away it was bad.

Issue #1, no lights on this 2008 pack.

 

[dnmun]

if you want to repair it or rebuild it as a 15S pack you can start a thread and we can walk you through it. do you have a soldering iron? seems like you have a voltmeter. a watt meter would be better because if you have some electric heaters you can test the capacity.

 

[gogo]

Penalty buzzer for gogo, it took 3 years, but indeed #4 is now showing less voltage than the rest (except the 0 volt). Its #4 starting from the red end, just to be clear on that.

I'll start a repair thread as suggested by dnmun.

 

[Anthony King]

i agree about this need to protect the corners of the pack. i also recommend removing the shrink wrap and using hardboard endplates. usually there is duck tape around the pack and as the pack swells with age the middle of the endpouches is pushed out and you can see the ends bulging from shrink wrap. i feel this distortion of the pouches is damaging and should be prevented by removing the duck tape and putting the hardboard endplates on and then clamping in some wood clamps to put under compression and then wrapping with duck tape around the endplates to keep it under compression as the pouches expand.

That makes sense. Are those thin pieces of hardwood on the ends? I think I'll do this with my battery. It is being built long and skinny to fit in the Xtracycle bag. If I have questions when I open it up I'll start a thread.

Thanks again for all the replies. Very helpful.

 

[dnmun]

no, you count the sense wires and the cells from the bottom.

the first cell, #1 is at the bottom of the pack and the B- is the negative end of the first cell. the red wire goes to the top of the pack and it is attached to the top of #16.

the circuit current is taken from all four of the first four cells, not just from #4. it is taken from the top of #4 through a connection on the BMS pcb and is used to drive all the opto transistors that then carry that voltage to the gates of the output and charging mosfets.

if you are new to working on batteries then i would recommend you wait to take it apart. it is still a new battery and there is time later to work on it once you have a better set of skills to work with. imo.

 

[dogman dan]

First four makes sense. At first, I was thinking huh? Usually various devices run on cell 1, cell 1 and 2, or such.

Fwiw, when my second ping died at 3 years, it was the first 4 cells that had the worst capacity.

Very short ride. Uh very short? I guess for me that's under a mile. Few is less rides than you have fingers perhaps, which varies.

That's the deluxe pack for a pouch cell battery in the pic. I never had problems with my pings corners, because I put them into protective exoskeletons of some kind from day one. So though the shrink does compress them there, then never got impacts or chafing on that corner.

I just had to repair a lipo pack last week, cuz I failed to take my own advice for "just one ride". Crushed a corner and could have had a nice fire.