alsmith
100 kW
mvly said:
That'd be more helpful if you added your location to your signature panel!
(profile in user control panel, Location is 7th item down).
Better deal than electric bike?
- Thread starter mvly
- Start date
That'd be more helpful if you added your location to your signature panel!
(profile in user control panel, Location is 7th item down).
triggeraa said:
In the long run, Lipo cost more... unless you get high quality Lipo like Thunderpower. However those will 2x the price of those POS from HobbyKing. So it might be better just to get 2x from HobbyKing and save the money.
However, I believe many have warn before about Hobbyking cells. Usually you have to buy 120% or more of what you need to build battery because undoubtedly, you will have 10%-40% defective cells rate on arrival. They do NOT check the cells before shipping them out. I have a few packs DOA. You can complain, but good luck getting them to send you a working one. I didn't. They wait until Paypal dispute expires and then ship them to you. It might be better to just cut your losses and buy more. I mean they are dirt cheap.
With your "working" cells, you will guarantee to have weak cells among them. Technically you will get 200-300 cycles if you treat them well. (3.6V-4.15V Range).
In the old days when quality Lithium battery were difficult to come by or prohibitively expensive to obtain, HobbyKing was the only way to go. However, now there are many alternatives and I would stay away from HobbyKing to save you time and headaches as well as the safety issues.
So let me do some new math for USA ebikers:
Enerdel cells ~= $850 shipped for 12s31Ah. http://evolveelectrics.com/Enerdel_MP310-049_Moxie.html
HobbyKing cheapest lipo: 4s5Ah hardcase Lipo = $24 shipped. You would need 3x to make 12s and you would need 6x in parallel to get 30Ah. 18 packs total. Add the extra 20% = 22 packs total. 22*24 = $528 shipped.
http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/__18631__Turnigy_5000mAh_4S1P_14_8v_20C_hardcase_pack_USA_Warehouse_.html
To get these on the bike properly, it would require mounting and such and extra wires and such. Lets say it's $50 each. It might be more for the HobbyKing because of all the series and parallel wires.
So At the end of the day:
$900 for Enerdel vs $580 for HobbyKing
But WAIT... Enerdel are rated for 1000+ cycles. while from experience and what other have stated in this forum about the Turnigy, you get realistically 200-300 cycles... Maybe 350 if you are lucky.
So if you were to keep these cells for a long time, you would be replacing your HobbyKing cells 3x before replacing 1 Enerdel pack. But let's be conservative and say you only get 800 cycles on your Enerdel and 400 cycles on your Hobbyking (Unrealistic base on my experience). So you will be replacing 2x on the Hobbyking. Now lets be even more conservative and say HobbyKing Lipo will drop in price by the time you need to replace it. Just for the record, they have INCREASE in price in the 2 years I had my lipo from them as oppose decrease.
Lets say they drop to $420. Even then, you have $900 for enerdel vs $1000 for HobbyKing. Moreover, you do not have to deal with shotty cells and the hassle of switching out the bad ones. Not to mention the safety issue associated with Lipo other have pointed out here.
That being said, I think now is the time people should be moving on from Lipo. Use them for what they are made more... high power. If you are drag racing or plan to have the smallest capacity on the bike with the most power, then by all means, go for the Lipo. But if you need something with quality, longevity, safety, and reliability, I would go with something like Enerdel, A123 from Cell man, or other known Lithium sources. It will save you a lot of time down the road. Plus with the extra time, you can actually enjoy riding instead of fixing all the time.
triggeraa
100 W
Have rarely had any problems with Hobbyking packs. In the last month I have ordered and received 9 - 5S, 19- 3S and 6 - 6S packs. All were received within 2 weeks in 4 different orders. Yes, lipo takes more skill to use. Maybe lipo is not for you. 
Still have 2 - 4S packs from back in 2008. They run my cordless weedwacker. 
Still have 2 - 4S packs from back in 2008. They run my cordless weedwacker. 
Ykick
1 GW
I got 3 year old 20C Turnigy RC Lipo cells with well over 600 cycles. In fact, one batch in particular is nearing 900, ISYN. Yes, replaced a few cells along the way and never pushed 'em for capacity but they remain the best $400 I've ever spent on batteries.
Am I interested in other options? Yes, and those NMC appear to be closing the gap but RC Lipo is a valid choice for those who accept the responsibility of proper use and storage.
Am I interested in other options? Yes, and those NMC appear to be closing the gap but RC Lipo is a valid choice for those who accept the responsibility of proper use and storage.
cal3thousand
10 MW
mvly said:
That's great for a motorcycle, but for ebike purposes, those batteries are a bit large. It's 33lbs!
Would be nice if a manufacturer or source allowed making reasonably sized packs for ebikes.
triggeraa
100 W
15kg! Comperable to lead acid!!
I hear the same stories with Lipo. Expect to replace cells/packs when they go bad. And they will go bad. Especially with Turnigy when there are minimal to NO Quality Assurance.
It is like Lead acid comparison to LiFePO4 in the old days. Even though Lead Acid is cheaper, in the long run it is more expensive because Lead Acid would only last 200-300 cycles at best. While LiFePO4 can last 1000+
The same comparison applies to Lipo vs NMC.
All the Lipo supporter can rally all they want behind lipo, but for the majority of casual ebiker, I would recommend NMC or other safer, more reliable lithium technology especially when it is cheaper to go with something other than lipo.
The average person does not have the technical knowhow to balance charge their battery, buy these lipo charger, watch their charging, charge outside, charging in infammable box, only use 80% of battery, never over discharge or over discharge, put it in a ammo-proof case during rides, and keep in storage voltage if plan not to use it for extended period of time. They just want something they plug into their outlet and charge and ride until it cuts out and charge again. I mean the point of building/buying an ebike is to ride it, not to spend hours fixing, testing, or swapping batteries.
That being said, I am not trying to say everyone should use it. If you are comfortable with handling Lipo or you need its high discharge characteristics for some purpose, or you plan to ride your ebike for a few cycles, comfortable with handling lipo and want upgrade to better lithium later on, then you SHOULD be using Lipo. Just don't promote Lipo for everyone and say this is the best deal in terms of lithium when it is clearly NOT and there are plenty of other "better" choices for the average Jane and Joe.
It is like Lead acid comparison to LiFePO4 in the old days. Even though Lead Acid is cheaper, in the long run it is more expensive because Lead Acid would only last 200-300 cycles at best. While LiFePO4 can last 1000+
The same comparison applies to Lipo vs NMC.
All the Lipo supporter can rally all they want behind lipo, but for the majority of casual ebiker, I would recommend NMC or other safer, more reliable lithium technology especially when it is cheaper to go with something other than lipo.
The average person does not have the technical knowhow to balance charge their battery, buy these lipo charger, watch their charging, charge outside, charging in infammable box, only use 80% of battery, never over discharge or over discharge, put it in a ammo-proof case during rides, and keep in storage voltage if plan not to use it for extended period of time. They just want something they plug into their outlet and charge and ride until it cuts out and charge again. I mean the point of building/buying an ebike is to ride it, not to spend hours fixing, testing, or swapping batteries.
That being said, I am not trying to say everyone should use it. If you are comfortable with handling Lipo or you need its high discharge characteristics for some purpose, or you plan to ride your ebike for a few cycles, comfortable with handling lipo and want upgrade to better lithium later on, then you SHOULD be using Lipo. Just don't promote Lipo for everyone and say this is the best deal in terms of lithium when it is clearly NOT and there are plenty of other "better" choices for the average Jane and Joe.
Ykick
1 GW
Guys, 'sorry to further derail thread and I will not post OT here anymore, but I wasn't considering the 30Ah modules. If you take a look these:
http://evolveelectrics.com/Enerdel_CP155-365_Moxie.html
15Ah cells indicate about 1lb ea. Dunno how feasible it is to interconnect them 15S1P although it appears reasonably possible. That's what I'd be interested in doing.
http://evolveelectrics.com/Enerdel_CP155-365_Moxie.html
15Ah cells indicate about 1lb ea. Dunno how feasible it is to interconnect them 15S1P although it appears reasonably possible. That's what I'd be interested in doing.
triggeraa said:15kg! Comperable to lead acid!!
hummm. Lets do the math...
528g for the Turnigy.
http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/__18631__Turnigy_5000mAh_4S1P_14_8v_20C_hardcase_pack_USA_Warehouse_.html
You need 3*6 packs to give you 12s30Ah (Realistically you only have 24Ah because you want to use at most 80% of the pack) The Enerdel is 31Ah legit 100% DOD and you will still have the same performance. But I will assume it does have similar capacity. If you do cycle it for the full 30Ah, good luck getting more than 150 cycles out of it before the 80% DOD capacity left.
So 528g*18 = 9.504Kg. Adding series/parrallel wires, tape, etc. Lets assume 0.496Kg to easily round to 10Kg.
Now sure.. enerdel is 15Kg vs the 10Kg. But keep in mind, that is WITH all the casing, power bus bar, etc. So lets remove those and see how much you really lose:
http://evolveelectrics.com/Enerdel_CP155-365_Moxie.html
0.45Kg per cells. You need 24 cells to get you the same capacity as the pack. So: 24*0.45Kg = 10.8Kg. Now of course those are the bare cells. You would need some bus bar, wiring, etc to get it to 12s2p. Lets add 0.7Kg because it might be harder build and require more material. So lets to round to 11.5Kg.
11.5Kg vs 10Kg. Humm, doesn't look like it is much different to me... unless you mean Lipo is also comparable to lead acid.
In addition you are gaining 7 more usable Ah compared to the Lipo.
If say you really want to compare properly, then you would need 40Ah of Lipo which means 24 packs (40Ah*80% = 32Ah).
528g*24 = 12.672Kg again assume 0.328Kg for harness to round easy and you get 13Kg for Lipo vs 11.5Kg for the Enerdel. Now it doesn't look like Lipo have anything on the Enerdel.
triggeraa
100 W
mvly said:triggeraa said:15kg! Comperable to lead acid!!
hummm. Lets do the math...
528g for the Turnigy.
http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/__18631__Turnigy_5000mAh_4S1P_14_8v_20C_hardcase_pack_USA_Warehouse_.html
You need 3*6 packs to give you 12s30Ah (Realistically you only have 24Ah because you want to use at most 80% of the pack) The Enerdel is 31Ah legit 100% DOD and you will still have the same performance. But I will assume it does have similar capacity. If you do cycle it for the full 30Ah, good luck getting more than 150 cycles out of it before the 80% DOD capacity left.
So 528g*18 = 9.504Kg. Adding series/parrallel wires, tape, etc. Lets assume 0.496Kg to easily round to 10Kg.
Now sure.. enerdel is 15Kg vs the 10Kg. But keep in mind, that is WITH all the casing, power bus bar, etc. So lets remove those and see how much you really lose:
http://evolveelectrics.com/Enerdel_CP155-365_Moxie.html
0.45Kg per cells. You need 24 cells to get you the same capacity as the pack. So: 24*0.45Kg = 10.8Kg. Now of course those are the bare cells. You would need some bus bar, wiring, etc to get it to 12s2p. Lets add 0.7Kg because it might be harder build and require more material. So lets to round to 11.5Kg.
11.5Kg vs 10Kg. Humm, doesn't look like it is much different to me... unless you mean Lipo is also comparable to lead acid.
In addition you are gaining 7 more usable Ah compared to the Lipo.
If say you really want to compare properly, then you would need 40Ah of Lipo which means 24 packs (40Ah*80% = 32Ah).
528g*24 = 12.672Kg again assume 0.328Kg for harness to round easy and you get 13Kg for Lipo vs 11.5Kg for the Enerdel. Now it doesn't look like Lipo have anything on the Enerdel.
Keep trying bro. You got me convinced.
Those things are bricks. No thanks.
friendly1uk
1 MW
vulyone said:
You need a step through frame if you want to mount it like a women or old man would.
I could have one of these if it were limited to 6kph. Lots of disabled people have similar looking 3 wheeled licensed things that iirc can do 12kph. My local force has a mobile crusher for such things though, they are proper on it.
alsmith
100 kW
friendly1uk said:
That is a very intolerant and thoughtless attitude.
Have you ever heard that anyone can have illness and disability that limits movement? Anyone includes males of any age. That includes me- I have fibromyalgia and spondylosis.
So I have to get rid of my bike and either have no bike, or one I would struggle to get on and off? And be unsafe everytime I have to stop.
Do you have other intolerant views? We already have disability and age, how about racial? Religious?
friendly1uk
1 MW
Oddly enough, I deleted invalid and inserted disabled. I considered how in-valid someone might feel reading such a thing. So yes, I obviously do understand some people are disabled. You seem to have a reading disability where you can't get past the first sentence.
Why are we bickering? Nobody wants to hear it. I won't reply again
Why are we bickering? Nobody wants to hear it. I won't reply again
dominator
10 W
The one thing I don't like about Lipos is all the extra wiring and having to take the batteries out to charge / balance, my current lithium manganese cobalt batteries are so easy to charge and has 1/10 the wiring for the same lipo setup.
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