Build or Buy?

[evildave]

So, first I'll tell you some back-story...

Once upon a time (in early 2010), I leased a Prius. At the time, I drove a lot more. But then I bought another house that was basically within walking distance of everything. Or at least so much of everything that I do walk almost everywhere, and my wonderful little car literally collects dust and cobwebs on my driveway. A sad, sad fate, and I will almost certainly end the 36 month lease in early 2013 with less than 15,000 miles on the car. Since I can 'buy out' the lease for $17,000 and sell it for $20,000+, I'll probably do just that.

I do have a Ford diesel pickup with a manual tranny, that could receive some TLC to be less... awful. It would not be a choice for long trips across country, being over 20 years old and kind of cranky, but hey, once it's started, it goes. Long story short, I probably won't lease or buy another car. What the hell, if I need to, I can walk around the corner and RENT a car. OK, when I say 'around the corner', I mean a mile or so, but I walk a lot further for little or no reason.

Most of the actual trips in the car have been quick in-town hops to run an errand 'fast'. Drop something off, pick something up, or go somewhere and dash back. Something I can't walk to do because I'm busy or waiting for something, or in a hurry. I think a bike could bridge this gap, as I don't really race around to get places.

So comes the notion of an e-bike. In fact, a cargo e-bike. After all, if I'm going somewhere to GET something, it's normally not SUPER big. I can use the truck, or rent a car, or even just have something delivered, to do it the one time in a hundred that I need to get something that the bike can't carry, or at least go further than in town trips.

I sort of like what I read about these Yuba bikes on the interwebz, but I'd have to drive a long way out of my way to actually touch one.
http://yubaride.com/yubashop/product.php?id_product=65

They also make an electric one, apparently powered by an 'eZee' 500 watt geared motor, according to their FAQ. I am not wholly convinced it's the best combination.
http://yubaride.com/yubashop/product.php?id_product=28
http://yubaride.com/electric-faq

A little more web crawling turns this up, which is probably where the hub motor came from.
http://www.ezeebike.com/Kit_product.htm

Something like a 'stoke monkey' kit looked like it would be 'better' than the canned solution offered, at least for pure power delivery, if not reliability (another chain+sprockets). It looks like they don't sell them anymore.
http://clevercycles.com/blog/products/stokemonkey/ordering/

So there's also an 'ecospeed'. At least they still appear to make 'em, and there's no extra sprocket. It looks like it would do the job of turning a bike into an unstoppable hill climber. Kinda steep in price, though.
http://www.ecospeed.com/prodcargo.html
http://www.ebikes.ca/drainbrain.shtml

I am familiar with schematics, electronics, soldering, computers, wrenches, screwdrivers, etc., and tearing apart and reassembling mechanical things (usually successfully), but don't have any welding toys or real interest in tearing things apart, or figuring out how to make some arbitrary kind of motor 'fit' a bicycle frame. I know my DC electronics and batteries, and have all the tools and experience necessary to do it without blowin' sh** up.

So this would be a mostly modular purchase. Motor+Controller+Controls would be some kind of 'kit', and Battery+Charger would be whatever I put together to match the controller inputs. This half has the most flexibility, and probably some sort of DC/DC conversion to run some LED safety lights and accessories off the drive battery, all the time it's 'on'.

If I bought a hub motor kit, I'd most likely take it, and its wheel to a bike shop and let them figure that out and keep the wheel true. But a bolt-on 'mid drive' would be a piece of cake for me to tackle. Grease ain't scary.

I believe that BRAKES, and making it STOP safely are far more important considerations than making it GO fast. Most of town is flat, but that doesn't mean I never want to ride it elsewhere, and most such 'elsewhere' locations are mountainous for me. Perhaps that's a silly dream, but I think I could pile an awful lot of battery onto a bike with a 400lb load capacity, and still have loads to spare.

The real question becomes, "What sort of battery?" Weight is somewhat less of a consideration with a heavy, big bike and low center of gravity (the batteries can be mounted low, in the rear). And of course, that $5000 build with the ecospeed and a few nik-naks is a bit steep. Some lead-acid batteries would at least keep the initial investment down while I contemplated more expensive (and lightweight) options. I could probably go 'all in' and make myself 'afford' better batteries, but I could get 48 volts @ 18AH of deep cycle AGM SLA batteries pretty cheap, at about 48lbs. Anyway, plenty of ways to tap into 12 volts somewhere and get my a cheap direct DC or DC/DC conversion output to run lights and toys, if the controller doesn't do that for me.

Then again, since most of the 'local' use would be flat, maybe the 'El Mundo' would be OK to get me going at half that price.

Meh.

So, basically looking for comments or advice while I continue to mull over the options. I'm not in a hurry.

 

[Jeremy Harris]

Battery choice is always tough for a first venture into ebikes, and it's tempting to think that buying some cheap SLAs is a way to get riding quickly and simply. Everyone I know who's done this has very quickly found their shortcomings to be such that they've effectively wasted money in going down this route. They are pretty heavy, which makes the bike handling unpleasant, they suffer from voltage sag under load, which limits their power and can cause problems with premature low voltage cut off on controllers and they have a very short cycle life when used on ebikes, particularly if they are discharged too far.

The alternatives may have a higher initial cost, but will be cheaper in the medium to long term. If you don't want to get into the hassle of building a battery pack, dealing with all the issues surrounding battery management and charging, then I'd suggest getting a pre-built pack. If your power needs are modest, rather than outright high performance, then it's hard to beat the Ping LiFePo4 LiPo packs for reliability and value. They come complete with charger and battery management system and only need to be mounted into some sort of case or bag on the bike. They are better value than SLAs, in that they will last for several years and so have a lower overall cost per mile. Such a pack will also be a lot smaller and lighter than a set of SLAs. See here for more details: http://www.pingbattery.com/servlet/StoreFront (I have no connection with Ping, other than as a happy customer).

When it comes to building a kit into a bike, then one of the best kit suppliers around is Grin (http://www.ebikes.ca), plus they have a simulator on their web site that allows you to get an idea of how a bike might perform with a particular motor, controller and battery set up (http://www.ebikes.ca/simulator/). The Ezee kit is pretty straightforward to fit, but there are folk here who could probably help and advise on just about any other type of motor/controller/battery combination you might want to use.

 

[Xanda2260]

+1 on everything Jeremy just said

Regarding braking, if you get a direct drive hub, then you can use regen braking. This will be handy for controlling speed down hills and will extend the life of your brake pads, while putting a bit of juice back in to your battery. If you intend to carr heavy loads, I'd recommend a decent hydraulic disk for the front, then regen on the rear (perhaps with another mechanical brake too). If you do go for a direct drive motor (9C, HS, HT, cromotor), try to stick it in a small wheel (20"), otherwise it may struggle to shift heavy loads without overloading your battery and/or melting the motor (Ok, maybe not the cromotor ).
Geared hubs (MAC etc.) would deal with the weight and any hills better, but you lose the oportunity to regen brake - same with mid drive (I think -I may be talking rubbish there).

I would definitely say build your own though - WAY more fun.


Incidently, this need to do errands quickly, but not wanting to lug around 1.5 tonnes of steel is exactly why I built my trike...

 

[dogman dan]

A Cargo bike makes a ton of sense, and I love my longtail, but it doesn't have to be a longtail to carry a lot.

Around here, the advice is always going to be to build. Sounds like you are well equipped to handle it, even if you aren't already very bike mechanic experienced. If you could afford a prius lease, sounds like you aren't on a $500 bike build budget. But I'm still going to recomend a modest cost start, the typical commuter being in the $1200 price range.

The thing to start with is a generic direct drive rear hub motor kit. One of the better ones for a cargo bike would be a 9 continent 2808 motor and 25 amp controller from Grin cyclery. Get the Cycleanalyst in the kit. Or you could economize and go ebay, such as yes com usa kits.

Run it with a 48v 15 ah battery from pingbattery. com. This gets you 25 mph or so, and lots of range so it won't be useless for long fun rides or the occasional trip 10 miles from home without a recharge.

Initially, put the motor kit on a fairly cheap, possibly used, mountain bike. Select a bike with a big front triangle area so the battery fits there. Cheaper models with a steel frame are actually a better thing to start with. You'll need about 6x13 inch square space in the triangle. With pannier bags, you can carry a lot on the rear rack.

Since you seem smart enough, you might want to just go straight to RC lipo from Hobby King. (Lico) For your really short trips, you could run just a tiny 5 amp hour pack of lipo, and carry the battery easily anyplace on the bike. I typically don't recomend RC lipo for newbies though, because it can be a hazard to charge. Also, I just feel everybody needs an ebike with more range to really understand the true versatility of an ebike as basic transport. Obviously, you can just carry more lipo when you need more range.

Ride it some, while deciding if you really want a longtail, or would just like an improved quality level bike. Other good choices for a first bike are 7 speed beach cruisers, pedal forward comfort cruisers, anything with lots of space for a battery up front. Rim brakes are fine, if they are the V brake type. They'll stop you fine up to 30 mph riding.

Since you have garage space once the prius is gone, you could easily have 2-3 ebikes in there in the end. One a big slow load hauling longtail, another a fun zippy beach cruiser, and maybe another with Full suspension for taking to fun places to ride in the truck.

Be warned, lithium is addicting.

Re taking the wheel to the bike shop. Well, that will depend a lot on where you live. I'm pretty lucky that where I am one of the three local bike shops doesn't give me the bum rush for being an ebike "heretic" . Seriously, many many local bike shops will refuse to even true your wheel. Some won't even want to sell you a tube. Other places, there are ebike shops you can go to and get great service. Most bike shops though, treat you like a pagan in the church.

Fortunately, with our help, you will easily learn the basics of bike mechanics, and if you just choose a bike with 7 speeds and V brakes, bolting it on will be quite easy. A new wheel will need tweaking and trueing in the first 100 miles as the motor streteches in the spokes. But really, it's pretty easy to handle with a few time saving tricks we'll teach you.

This is part of why my advice is to start with a steel frame and v brakes on a cheap bike. If you should make a big blunder, you didn't ruin a $1000 frame eh? A steel bike is easily to "adjust" if you need a few more mm for the motor axle, and no disk brakes saves you those fitting issues on the first go at an e-bike build. By taking a few baby steps at first with the bike mechanics, you'll soon take to that part of it, and be posting pics of the new wheel you just laced before you know what happened.

 

[The fingers]

I built mine a year ago and it paid for itself in gas savings within six months. (What car can do do that?) A pedal commuter for 25+ years, I needed a boost! I'm not yery handy at building things, but it came out good anyway. Lots of helpful advice here, you'll be grinning ear to ear very soon!

 

[evildave]

Hey, thanks for all the great responses!

The 'gas savings' won't be my thing. The problem is that I put 8~9 gallons in a Prius... about quarterly, and sometimes even less often. It's more the lease+insurance+registration+maintenance for the car, and the heartbreak of seeing it 'rot' in my driveway. Fuel is non-zero, but pretty cheap compared to not using the car. Certainly between taxes, insurance, lease, I'd pay for even a fairly expensive build in a year or so. The poor, stinky old truck rots even worse, and it's had more than a bike's worth of repairs all by its self, and more to come to 'fix' the air-sucking, leaky fuel system and make it start reliably without 'help'.

Having driven around a hybrid, I can tell you that 'regen' on flat roads is pointless. Maintaining a constant speed and timing signals so as NEVER to brake or accelerate yields your hypermiler gold, not the scraps and tidbits that never add up to what it takes to accelerate again. For controlling speed over a long downhill run, regen is excellent. Unlike most cars, the Prius 'cruise control' is a setpoint that controls maximum speed, as well, so it works great up and down mountain roads, and especially for the long descents, it usually tops off the (smallish) pack handily, and ends up switching to engine braking at least a few times, before the mountain is through. Of course, downhill 'regen' would mean absolutely nothing if I could never get UPHILL in the first place (or back uphill again). It's also an added expense and feature in the motor controller to 'go wrong'.

I wonder if a hybrid of the center-mount and a rear hub (mainly for regen braking on descents) might work. Though I suppose I would actually have to 'engineer' something with a second controller to use that hub motor, and keep it idled, and switch the batteries from 'drive' to 'regen'. Then again, that sounds like a lot of work and expense and weight to 'save' (relatively) inexpensive brake pads on quality brakes. Looking at the center mount design (no regen), I at least have more faith it would drag my lazy arse up a hill in 'low gear' than any non-geared hub mount that could do regen (no geared one will do regen either), without adding drag to all of my own pedaling.

I could technically pay for a full build outright, but I am a bit stingy, and PingBattery looks like an excellent source, so I couldn't pass up grabbing a fat, 'proper' battery pack for the bike at such a low, low price. About double or triple the capacity I'm seeing (on average) for the same price for the juice box in kits. Since I'll be maintaining it, at least assembling my configuration onto the bike seems to be the 'right thing' to do. I won't mount anything in a way that can't be pulled back off without tearing the whole damned bike apart.

I don't think I'll be loading it heavily very much for hilly trips, though hilly trips for light camping is a possibility. Then again, water becomes a problem wherever I'd conveniently camp near home. I'm a bit solar obsessed, so I'd want to make sure the batteries could be charged by a relatively small array. I could probably use a 'low power' charger with an inverter, but if I popped the charger open and found an easily identifiable separation of AC and DC circuitry, I would be stoked. That would mean I could drop in a switch and DC plug to bypass the AC section and use the DC charge circuitry with solar. Just a little 'patching'. Who needs warranties, anyway? Fortunately, it's usually easy to identify power supply and PS output, even on the same board. I'd rather see a modular AC power supply though, as I wouldn't have to cut and patch and probably drill into traces on the PC board. Though it's also possible that LiFEPO4 is forgiving enough to take power from a low watt solar array without cooking the batteries, similar to lead acid batteries (for instance, at 30 watts or less, it's 'impossible' to overcharge a car or deep cycle lead-acid battery with a solar panel - no charge controller needed). So four cheap, fold-up 18 watt, 12 volt arrays in parallel might do a 48 volt brick o' batteries.

If some bike shop people are snobs about e-bikes, it would explain a lot about why there apparently aren't any e-bike shops around here. Though Palm Desert/Palm Springs/etc. are heavily retirement oriented. You'd think they'd want to cater to older folks with disposable cash, and become downright evangelical about e-bikes. I'd tell them so before walking out, and perhaps see if the electric golf cart dealer would be more interested in carrying such things. It's not that I couldn't do work like making a wheel true, or fixing spokes, it's that I'm not really INTERESTED in tooling up and doing that work. Maybe more riding would stoke my interest, later on. Then again, since I'm not interested in the hubs, bringing a normal wheel in would not raise any 'suspicions'. Once upon a time I'd pull engines and do whatnot with cars myself, but over the years, I've become content with having 'reliable' vehicles, and leaving it to someone else who already has ALL of the tools and equipment, and has done the job lots of times before (hopefully more often 'right' than 'wrong'). It's pretty damned expensive when I make a mistake, but when the mechanic goofs, they keep fixing and replacing until they get it right.

I'm not too keenly interested in experimenting with lots of bikes, and I'm not a connoisseur of bicycle handling, really. If I get a bike, it will be 'the bike', and I think it would be wasteful to 'experiment' by buying and replacing components, compared to doing it right once. Other people have already done those experiments to death, so I wouldn't be advancing science or the state of the art in any way.

According to all reports, the cargo bikes with the 'cargo' part on the back end handle 'just like a normal bike', albeit a 'normal bike' that weighs over 50lbs before I add motor+controller+battery+'stuff', and probably a wider turning radius. Of course, all of the glowing reviews about the handling might be from people with a vested interest in selling these bikes. I've ridden 'cheap' steel bikes with fat, forgiving tires far more than super-light performance bikes. Though certainly the cargo bike isn't 'cheap', it would keep that cargo off my sweaty back in 110+F heat, meaning I'd use it a lot more.

I'd prefer the tractor to the racing car. After a single racing season the ultra-light, single-purpose racing car is an obsolete, broken-down has-been, ready for the scrap heap. After 50 years, the rusty, tack-weld-covered, kludged, oil-eating old tractor is still pushing dirt around. I've never been able to run worth a damn, but I have always been able to work hard, all day long. It is a standard I use for measuring real 'worth' versus popular appeal, and by that standard, 'racing' or 'sport' bike designs are 'bad'. Not that they are 'bad' by other metrics. Just that I want something to abuse routinely, and have it last for years, anyway.

 

[Punx0r]

I'm not sure if you'll be able to charge an ebike from a solar panel of a size that you can carry about, but many/most chargers take a 12VDC input (being intended to charge model aircraft batteries in the field).

 

[evildave]

I've had a few things from these folks, before.
http://www.powerstream.com/dcdc.htm

I'm strongly considering a DC/DC converter of some sort, as I would only need to deal with the ONE battery for lighting and various other toys on the bike, and these things are typically pretty efficient. The ones made for battery power usually take a wide range of input voltages.

Just make sure the cut-off on the low end is well below the cut-off for the motor controller, or your lights will black out. In other words, if you have a 36 volt bike, and you get one with a minimum cut-off voltage of 34 volts, it will cut out shortly after you start using the bike. You need it to cut out at (or below) 24 volts, to keep the bike safely lit from the drive battery.

Added: And actually, the ebikes link from earlier had some lights and DC/DC converters, too.
http://www.ebikes.ca/lights/

 

[evildave]

Well, the thing about solar panels is, you can get one 'big' one for a ton of money, or you can get more 'small' ones inexpensively, and connect them in series or parallel to get the volts or amps you need.

If a two amp charger takes 12 volts in, that would be even better, as a couple of 30 watt panels would supply it well enough with at least three or so amps for the brightest parts of the day. As long as the 12 volt input is 'smart' enough to cut off for low voltage (as any battery source should), there should be no problem. Those panels fold to about the size of a notebook.

 

[RyanTo]

I'm voting for RC Lipo for a battery. The thing about it is it's flexable. Increasing voltage, adding capacity, removing some for a short commute, adding some for a camping trip etc. You sound like a smart person so I'm sure you can figure it out. If you do, look at hobby king either the 4, 5, or 6s packs. Once you get a charger - with shipping from the USA warehouse it ends up costing me about a $100 for a 44v 5ah pack. I've placed a few $100 orders when I need more range for a trip.

 

[dogman dan]

Might browse the Grin website for some of you desires. In addition to inventing the Cycleanalyst, Justin has also put on sale some cool gadgets. The Ca has a pack voltage output plug now, to go with his any voltage headlights. DC DC as well i think, and an amp for rocking the beach party with your ipod.

By all means get your cargo bike. My frankenbike longtail handles fine, though a bit like a long vintage car handles different from a camry. I just meant slap the kit on a fairly cheap mtb frame while you mull over the decision which longtail you want. Yuba, kona, surly, or something in a dutch cargo carrier?

Or do you want suspension like I did, leading to this lab experiment?

One nice thing about RC lipo (lico) from hobby king, is that the RC chargers run on DC. Smaller ones 12v, bigger ones 24. So that's pretty compatible with a stationary off grid solar setup. There is a very pricy folding panel setup designed for bikes though. I forget the voltage of it, 36 or 48v.

But if you have a cargo bike, just pack more batteries. Nothing wrong with the ping + Lico approach, at least to me anyway. On a long tour I'll carry a ping for the first 20-30 miles, then pack along enough hobby king packs to make the range I want. I'm not in one camp or the other, more in the have it all camp.

 

[evildave]

Pretty!

 

[john7700]

I wouldn't recommend Lipo for a commuter/first timer and if I had the money I would not buy a Ping (and I run a Ping). I would love to have the C-rate (power) one can get from A123 packs and still maintain the plug and play abilities of Lifepo.

The DC-DC converter is available pre-made from Grin.

You are really trying to re-invent the wheel here with a lot of your ideas. Search the site for some of the
many cargo bike builds that have been done here. You will get a ton of ideas and answers to a lot of your questions. Both ones that you have asked and ones that you haven't thought of yet. There is also a lot of info on charging via solar here as well.

Best of luck with your build and please keep us posted on your decisions/progress.

 

[oigoi]

In my opinion you are better off having an ebike and a trailer rather than a cargo bike. I find it great to be able to blast around on a nimble bike when I dont need to transport anything heavy or bulky then hitch on the trailer when I do need it.

 

[evildave]

Seems someone in SF,CA builds the combination of motor/bike I'm thinking of, approximately. This gives some 'hope' for easy fitting of the motor+crank.

http://www.ecomallbiz.com/treasurebiz/electricbicycles/item.nhtml?profile=electricbicycles&UID=142

$5,500 for bungee cords? That's the best they could professionally do, to immortalize in a picture and present to the world for their build quality? I could probably devise something more attractive with duck tape. Blah.

I think I'd hang/mount the battery below the rack, just ahead of the rear wheel, instead of strapped on top, and in the way... and maybe the controller on the other side of the seat post, as high as its wires allow, with some play, where it doesn't block a drink holder screw-on. (Maybe it's using those screw holes? Maybe that's as far away from the motor as it can get?) Probably do something about where all those wires coming out of the controller, for better gravel and splash protection, too.

I think I'll just buy the 'bare' bike, first, and make up my mind about how to 'correctly' electrify it from there. Having it right in front of me to tinker with will give me a better idea of where all the 'many' mount-points it allegedly has are located, and give me more precise measurements. Plus, I can spread the 'sticker shock' out a bit.

I'll probably buy the cable disk brakes, as well. That should free up some space (and a solid screw hole mount point) around the rear wheel, and I'm a 'true believer' for disk brakes, anyway, having had many wet rim 'adventures'. I don't know that a hydraulic cable long enough to reach all the way back there exists, but I'm sure I can find brake cables that long.

If I'm nice, and remember, I'll post a series of pictures, with arrows pointing all of the screw holes out on the frame, like Yuba ought to have done. And then 360 degree images of what the motor+mechanics look like, since everyone seems to only want to show the side view of it that doesn't show anything revealing about the mechanics. Some of images for recumbents and trikes are more helpful, and show a small chain, but the model looks different from the upright, two wheeler models. It's kind of hard to tell, though.

 

[georgefromvt]

Hi. If you have the time and technical skills, building can be great but for those with little time, buying may be the better decision. A few years ago I purchased a well known expensive DIY Bike kit, I spent more time fiddling with issues than actually biking. I finally broke down a purchased a Tonaro Bike, it's a non hub powered bike sold under various names such as Evelo, IGO and Gette. I'm now on my second bike and very pleased with its performance. It's quieter, smoother and better torque than my old 500watt DD hub motor and it was only about 200 bucks more! I haven't had nearly the head aches compared to the DD hub motor kit. Check out the threads.
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=20960&start=15#p305706

http://www.evelo.com/?gclid=CICCjPD-krECFUff4AodmA9Fgw
http://www.ebikesofne.com/
http://www.igoelectric.com/?gclid=CPLu4qqDk7ECFQFx4AodDnFBeA

 

[dogman dan]

Doesn't take a genius to see he wants more than a motiv. They do look good, but they are far from a real cargo hauler.

This one is for sale right now,,,, http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=41337

Or you could go completely crazy like I did.

Thread on it in the pics section.

 

[pff7]

"Battery choice is always tough for a first venture into ebikes, and it's tempting to think that buying some cheap SLAs is a way to get riding quickly and simply. Everyone I know who's done this has very quickly found their shortcomings to be such that they've effectively wasted money in going down this route. They are pretty heavy, which makes the bike handling unpleasant, they suffer from voltage sag under load, which limits their power and can cause problems with premature low voltage cut off on controllers and they have a very short cycle life when used on ebikes, particularly if they are discharged too far. "

I am so tempted to just get 4, 12 volt SLA's from my local ACE hardware store just to get my newly mounted rear wheel 48 volt,500 W motor up and running....thanks for saving me from a mistake.

 

[evildave]

Thanks for all of these great responses!

I haven't been at home this week, but will be shopping a little more in earnest when I get back.

It turns out there is a bike shop (actually two of the same shop) that deals in e-bikes and one kind of cargo bike at home, so I'll at least look them over, when I get back, assuming anything of the kind(s) are in-stock.

 

[evildave]

As for 'reinventing the wheel', I actually did read the wiki and browse the site a bit. Lots of excellent information. I should hope I'm not breaking any new ground.

I like fresh opinions. I figured the question had been asked before, but what the heck, it's a forum, not a FAQ.

Someone from EcoSpeed sales got back, and apparently they're coming out with a new refresh for their motors, and had a nice picture of a better configured bike, with motor, with batteries in the saddle bags...

I wish he had just given liks to the installation PDFs, but what the heck. Basically, you remove your 'old' cranks, put this crank in, in their place, tighten it up snug & secure it, etc., route the wires, mount the controller, hook up the batteries, and try not to lose any fingers.

 

[evildave]

Anyway, here's what I like about the pedal configuration:

• It gets the mechanical advantage of all the bike's gearing.
• The casing on that motor looks like it has some heat dissipation designed in.
• If a tire goes flat, I am not dinking with wiring.
• If the rim gets bent, or a spoke broken, it's just a regular wheel.

And here's what I don't like:

• Superman is pedaling my bike. I don't know if the stock chain will take it.
• If it DOES break, I wonder if that chain will snap up and hit my leg? If the motor is cranking away, there'll be no stopping it in time. It makes me think about a chain guard. Maybe something like this, I guess: http://www.amazon.com/SKS-Chainboard-Bicycle-Chainguard-System/dp/B002I7IBPE (except one that 'fits')
• A second, little chain from the motor to the crank, to go wrong, too.
• Yegawds! The price is a bit steep. There's no denying the sticker shock on this.
• +$400, if you want to keep the front derailleur sprockets (so not quite ALL of your bike's gearing). I guess the motor needs a longer armature to reach past, and extra torque on everything, and the sprocket is probably 'special' somehow, too... but that just makes the sticker shock worse.

 

[evildave]

After chatting with a bike salesman (always dangerous) and riding around a parking lot a bit, I'm thinking perhaps I will forego cargo and electrification for a bit, as others here have suggested. and will pick up an 'inexpensive' hybrid bike.

The sales guy was very nice, and at least knowledgable about local riding, and made some compelling arguments against a 'cargo bike' in this area, versus a trailer and/or smaller rear cargo bag/trunk, similar to several posters, here.

They had a couple of e-bikes there (Pedegos, a boy & girl bike), but I think their knowledge of e-bikes didn't extend much beyond their own stock and catalogs.

The sales guy expertly gauged me as a relative cheapskate who wanted to sit upright, and steered me right to a series of progressively more expensive Chinese Trek 7000~7300 bikes from $399 and up.

It was helpful. I determined a few things with the test ride.

First off, I'm probably not in as poor shape as I tend to accuse myself of being.

I do know I would use the 'E' more than the 'bike', if I had the motor from the start. I am definitely just as lazy as I have always known myself to be. So I'll see if I can make it around town without 'E'.

Finally, yeah, I like my toys. But there isn't much more than five miles in any direction (well, other than weeds and bugs and things, or the standard, repeating 'Generica' strip malls), and the roads/paths are either pretty flat, or suicidally dangerous to ride a bike on at all. Going much further than that, I end up in 60+MPH traffic with nowhere safe to be.

So, now with a little searching, this popped up on my RADAR for a possible bike, too. At the very least, it would be an interesting challenge to make it 'mid drive', but there wouldn't be a bike chain pedaled by 'superman'. Then again, probably a geared front hub would be OK, since there isn't any real hill climbing to be done, and I'm probably not transporting it to the places where the hills are (well technically 'High Sierra'), as those places would be even more suicidal to bike at, since the roads are hazardous even to operate a car on.

http://www.dynamicbicycles.com/bicycles/runaboutcity8.php

I'm hardly 'decisive' on any of these matters. I might just go with the local store, or order the neat-o chainless bike.

I will buy a bike, that much is decided.