Commuter/fun build

[Howie]

Hi,

I recently became interested in the electric, as I'm sure many have due to the frustration with oil, and have spent a couple weeks reading as much as I can online and have lurked here for most of that time. I've learned quite a bit so far, and there is obviously much more to learn about the hobby and the technology. I've been looking at different systems and options and I'm overloaded with information so I thought I'd post here and see if anyone can give some insight.

I have a two mile commute to work to the East and a two mile ride to the gym to the West, with a few smallish hills that will likely account for the majority of my riding. I also live about 100 yards from a couple decent mountain bike trails that are fairly tame. I have a Giant Yukon that I've owned for probably 7 years that I'll probably convert and I've also thought about buying a different bike for the build with full suspension.

Just when I was convinced to go with the Phoenix Racer 4840 or 7240, I stumbled across a thread here talking about the new HS3540, and the weight savings and what seems to be improved performance looks good. Can anyone shed some light on the HS3540 and it's performance other than what I've read on here so far? Are there any unknowns with the new model that could pose concerns that I should be considering vs a more established motor like the phoenix?

I had been trying to choose between 48V LiFePO4 which would require one battery setup vs using a single 36V for commuting and adding a second battery for 72V for playing. The 48V option seems to be the more affordable route with the single battery vs two, as well as the concerns of running 72V on my current bike and possibly breaking parts or needing to buy a new bike to do it safely. I'm a firm believer that anything worth doing, is worth overdoing, and that makes the 72V or higher attractive, I just don't know if settling on the 48V will supply enough to keep me happy and be a nice compromise in the middle.

I see a lot of people making their own battery packs with the li-ion batteries from HK and different sources and while that is also attractive, the LiFePO4 batteries seem a little more forgiving for someone new like myself. I've read a lot of good things about the ping batteries, and the 48V 15AH or 20AH v 2.5 models look about right. Would that be a good choice? I've looked at a few different suppliers and Ping seems to come in cheapest with shipping and price all taken into consideration but I may be missing something.

I've seen the Phoenix controller, 48v 40A as well as the 36v-72v 40A but I've also seen a lot of people talking about other controllers that are/were available from other members in the forum. Would it be worth looking into one of the Infineon type controllers I hear mentioned or should I just go with the Crystalyte model?

I'll list out what I'm considering below and if anyone has any tips about who to contact for parts, or changes that you would make, I'm definitely looking for input from the folks here with more knowledge in this whole thing.

HS3540- probably 48v but 36v-72v is an option. Hall effect sensors or no?
Crystalyte 48v 40A or 35A controller/ 36v-72v 40 amp for that option.
Ping 48v 15AH or 20AH LiFePO4 or dual 36v with same AH rating
Stand alone CA
Rear sprocket freewheel, not sure which so looking for input. Preferably with ability to install disk brake.
Cruise and brake inhibit

I'm in Michigan and if anyone has any tips on what suppliers I may want to look at to try and keep shipping costs down, that would be great. I'm also interested in any opinions or thoughts that may help me avoid making any of the common newbie mistakes.

 

[Alan B]

Welcome to ES.

You can see my first build thread from the link in my signature. I'm testing it now with Lipo. A couple of thoughts. One is to pick a specific goal and build for that. Too many possibilities makes it difficult to meet any of them. My thinking is that designing for the commute/gym run is a good start. Course if you keep pedaling maybe the gym won't be needed.

Having worked on this awhile I find that while there are a lot of details the real issue is mounting the batteries. Especially if there are a lot or they are heavy. I'm currently testing with a pair of 6S LiPo taped into a bottle rack while I work out the battery mounting. This has allowed me to learn a lot and have some fun. It provides 48V and a range of about 8 quick hilly miles. With a four pound battery.

The direct plug CA saves a lot of wires on the bike. There are quite a few already, so I figure that is a help. Requires a controller with appropriate plug, but those are available.

The Nine Continents motors are somewhat better made, lighter and lower in cost. Very popular.

LiPo batteries are pretty easy to work with using the available RC chargers. You get lots of info from the charger about what is going on. With a pack made up of a number of pluggable sub-packs the battery is more serviceable. Big expensive all-in-one packs worry me, as they are difficult to troubleshoot. But that is just my concern, they can work fine.

You have to watch the current capacity of the battery vs what your controller can draw. Make sure there is adequate margin there. Don't want to heat up the battery (much).

 

[dogman dan]

I see nothing in that post that would indicate any need for the power, extra weight, and more expensive batteries of an x5 motor. Forget a pingbattery with the big motors and controllers. But if you want power, then the 5304 is a great motor. I can't say a thing about the new motors till I get my hands on one.

Since you are going to do some trail riding, first and formost you will want a rear mounted motor. A smaller and lighter 9c motor or BMC gearmotor would be a more practical choice, without sacrificing any of the fun. These motors would run fine on a 48v 15 ah pingbattery, which might fit within the frame of your bike. Don't mount a rear motor and then carry the battery on the rear rack, unless you go superlight with lipo.

Speaking of lipo, it does sound like you'll be wanting to volt up and hot rod the bike later. With that in mind, may as well dive right in and go for lipo from HK. Start with a really simple and relatively cheap 12s setup and 48v controller. For your short rides, you would only need two 6s 5 ah packs, plus the charger, voltage monitors and other stuff that goes with lipo. Do the baby steps with a simple 12s rig, then later go for it with a 20s battery and new controller.

 

[Howie]

Thanks for your replies.

I'll go with the direct plug CA to try and keep the wire management under control. I was reading through your build thread yesterday Alan and it looks like you've got some nice ideas.

I'll definitely want to tinker and increase power and speed eventually so you may be right about just jumping in with the Lipo but that is going to take a bit more reading to fully understand. Maybe I just spent a lot of time looking at the Crystalyte motors but I got the impression that they were pretty popular for the higher power/higher speed bikes. Either way, while I'm spending the time and money, I'd LIKE to be able to build something in the 40+mph range with a 8-1 2mile range at reasonable speeds. I like the idea of using one of the 3 speed switches I read about to toggle through performance settings.

I guess I'll be spending some time trying to get a better understanding of the batteries and see what options I can come up with for a Lipo setup. I know I'm not the first person that wants the best of both worlds, the efficiency and range of a commuter as well as the power and speed of a racer, all in one.

 

[Alan B]

Adding a motor to a bicycle is a balancing game. The weight of motor and batteries can be significant, and the speed/power level you choose changes the weight and balance of your result. Xlyte motors have been around and are tough but generally heavy. The new ones may be more comparable to the lighter 9C but they are not quite out yet or at least not well tested. If your goal is 40+ then you need heavy duty, and that includes rims, tires, frame, brakes etc. Folks push things for certain, but for a reliable commuter I tend to think bicycle to 20 something, moped to 30, and motorcycle for 40+. Pushing a bicycle up to really high speeds is possible but is it going to hold up and be reliable in frequent use and be safe? Also can you still carry it up stairs, put it on a bus rack, etc?

The nice thing is you get to choose.

 

[dogman dan]

9c motor on 48v 20 amp controller + 12s lipo = 25 mph commuter. 25 mph is faster than you think, especially if you ride long distances at that speed.

Same motor, 120 v controller = 51 mph racing bike. The heavy clyte motor would go that speed further before the smoke came out, but my racing bike does fine for the 30 min on the track.

It's a balancing act of weight vs power for sure. I never let the smoke out of my 5304. But it always rode like a 25 pound tire. The 15 pound 2810 9c motor was much more fun to ride. But it did melt down one day, pushing 3500 watts through it on steep hills.

 

[Howie]

I just sent the payment for one of Lydens 12 fet controllers and a few other odds and ends and I can't find a c9 2807 rear 26" with disk anywhere. Best bet so far is a month out, and that isn't good. If anyone knows who has them, I'd appreciate a tip.

I was going to order the Zippy 5s1p 8000mAh packs last night but thought I'd see if there is any feedback on those before laying out the cash. I like the extra life instead or ordering 4 more and that should take care of just about all the riding that I plan on doing, I hope. I was going to order the icharger 1010B+ 300W charger with the batteries since it seems to have decent reviews and if I'm not mistaken, I've heard a few people here talk about them favorably.

Any tips on the hub motors would be great and I can't wait to see parts start showing so I can get this build going.

Howie

 

[dogman dan]

Hmm, ebikes-ca is out of stock. But ebikekit has em. http://www.e-bikekit.com/shop/index.php?p=product&id=114&parent=8

Or go to Methods in the for sale section and get a 2808 (8x8) instead. A bit slower, but if you run 20s lipo you'll still see 35 mph for sure.

Dont forget to use this too, if you go with ebikekit. http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=26062 20% off.

 

[Howie]

Thanks dogman, that was right there in the open and somehow I managed to miss their sale.

I'm still curious about the new xlyte motors that are coming but the 9c seems pretty well known and trusted here so I should be good.

I think tomorrow I'm going to get the batteries ordered before I look at the price and I'm still leaning towards the 8000mAh Zippys.

 

[dogman dan]

Wish those 8 ah packs had come out when I was buying batteries.

 

[Howie]

I got the 8ah zippys from HK and icharger 1010B+ and Junsi 350W power supply from epbuddy. I can't judge them against any others since they will

One thing that has been nagging at me are the connectors. I ordered a few different types and hopefully I'll find something that works. I like the connectors that are impossible to mix up the polarity so we'll see.

dogman, how do you like the mongoose blackcomb for an ebike build? I'm thinking about getting a different bike to use, other than my current bike, and I keep going back the blackcomb again and again.

 

[dogman dan]

The blackcomb is not a real good MTB. But it has a few virtues that make it a great bike to motorize. In particular, the big fat rear steel dropouts. Just the fact that it's steel makes it possible to run lower power without even using a torque arm. It's nice and flat, so you will find it easy to make a torque plate for, or adapt to a standard torque arm.

It handles adequate for moderately hard dirt trails and street speeds up to 35-40 mph. Front shocks are cheap, but at least have decent travel. The rear shock is junk, but could be upgraded to a very good one for fairly cheap at chain reaction cycles. I haven't forked out the coin for it yet myself. The poor rear shock only bothers me on very rough trails. With the battery weight, I just stiffen it up with the preload adjuster, and the result is a very short travel.

I have two blackcombs, both with rear motor. The dirt rider has the battery boxes for lipo strapped to the frame. It's very wide, but I could still pedal bowlegged when I needed to. This one handles pretty good, except for the rear shock issue. It has great balance with the battery boxes bolted through the frame.

The other has a faster motor for street riding, and has a heavy 15 pound pingbattery on a rear rack. This one handles poorly. The handling was even worse, till I made some adjustments to the rack supports. A tiny bit of looseness on the rack made it impossible to let go of handlebars without going into a death wobble. After fixing this issue handling greatly improved, but the tail still wags a bit too much because of the lack of frame stiffness. Load too much rear weight on these FS mtb's and they need very very stiif frames to deal with the forces.

Despite all these issues, it's still worth going with a bike with a steel rear swingarm, or steel frame for a rear motor bike. You talk about the trails being not so difficult, so the blackcomb suspension should be good enough, or even a hard tail bike would work, like a trek 820. For a first build, you don't want the hassles of trying to motorize an alloy frame that may be so shaved down to save weight that intalling a proper torque plate becomes a real problem.

somewhere in the pix section is a thread for my blackcomb dirt bike build that you can get some ideas from.

 

[Howie]

I've been digging through the review and pics section but it seems quite a few of the pictures are corrupted or missing.

I was looking for pictures or a layout of the rear motor installation with the washers but I haven't really found anything clear just yet. What I have right now is, on the wire side, motor...c washer...dropout...D washer, nut. On the sprocket side, it's motor, 6 speed freewheel, D washer, dropout, D washer, nut. I have two torque arms on their way and plan on installing them between the outside of the dropouts and the D washers. Sound good?

First test fit, at 2am, I had some rubbing that I thought was the disk rubbing on the pads but it was the back side of the derailer and the brake adjuster scraping on the motor. It gouged up the paint, which kinda sucks, but either a little touchup paint or paint stripper will take care of that. Actually, I wonder if removing all the paint down to the bare aluminum would help heat dissipation? Who knows...

Also, with the above arrangement with the brake disk off, there is a clicking noise that seems to be coming from inside the motor or maybe from the freewheel. I've looked and looked and I don't see anything rubbing or binding so I'm not sure if that is normal or not. The motor won't continue to freewheel after I stop turning the pedals longer than a second or two and I think that could be attributed to Lenz's law or magnetic braking or whatever the term is. Does that seem right?

Any help is greatly appreciated and I can't wait for the controller and batteries to arrive! If my first package from HK shows up with the wire and connectors, I MAY consider upgrading the phase wires but I'm not sure if I want to open the motor up and start tinkering before I even get power to the thing.