Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

[mrbill]

Today I went out for a test ride on a new direct-drive hub motor (NC3006) and used the temperature sensor (10k thermistor as installed in the motor by Grin) for the first time.

As I climbed the first major hill, I watched the motor temperature rise gradually as expected. When the temperature reached about 75 C the CAV3 (Prelim8) display intermittently showed the AuxAdjust screen, even though I had not adjusted the dial. (I realize I had complained to Justin about this screen not persisting for as long as I wished, but even I don't want to see the AuxAdjust screen at random intervals.) As I continued the AuxAdjust screen persisted longer, up to 90% of the time. (Was Justin teasing me from afar?) During this time I observed that wh/mi was zero, even though watt-hours was greater than zero, as was miles. The calculation was not being made.

I stopped, went into Setup, and disabled the temperature sensor. Now wh/mi was displayed correctly, and I no longer saw the AuxAdjust screen pop up unbidden.

Not wanting to be without a temperature reading while I was climbing a long hill, I stopped again and enabled the temperature sensor. Now wh/mi showed "-3.5", and the AuxAdjust display only showed up when the dial was adjusted.

I continued my ride.

On the second long hill, I again observed the motor temperature rise gradually. When the reading reached about 90 C I noticed that it jumped erratically between 88.5 and 91.5, faster than I would have expected it to change due to heating. At about this time I noticed again unbidden flickering appearances of the AuxAdjust screen. When the AuxAdjust screen disappeared long enough for me to see the temperature of the motor, I could see that it jumped erratically between 92 and 120 C. Oddly, motor power was not throttled back, even though the temperature was in the throttle-back range (90-130C).

I stopped again and turned off the CAV3, hoping perhaps that a reboot would clear the problem. After turning on the CAV3 again, I saw the temperature now read 160 C and 0.16v. Alarmed that I had overheated the motor I felt the hub near the spoke flange. It was hot but not so hot that I couldn't firmly place my fingers on it indefinitely. My guess would have been 50-60C at most, but perhaps the temperature sensor is buried deep inside where the motor gets hottest.

Now that the temperature sensor was reading in excess of the maximum threshold temperature, the throttle-back feature appeared to function, and I could get no power from the system. I disabled the temperature sensor and resumed my climb. The system functioned properly for a while, and the motor appeared to have suffered no damage.

For the remainder of my ride I sporadically saw the AuxAdjust screen when I had not adjusted the dial. The last time I saw the screen it showed incorrectly, "0 watts". At this time I also observed current Watts at 10, even though I could feel the motor pushing into my backside and had just seen it display about 600 watts. Also, the current speed reading did not change, even though I could feel acceleration.

I stopped again and disconnected the temperature sensor cable from the motor and rebooted the CAV3. The CAV3 behaved normally for the remainder of my ride.

After I got home I reconnected the temperature sensor. The CAV3 displayed 172 C and 0.10 volts. The motor was barely warmer than ambient temperature, 25 C at most.

There appears to be some funky error in the temperature sensor code in Prelim8 that causes it to overwrite other display data and cause random appearances of the AuxAdjust screen when the temperature circuit is closed. I may also have a wonky thermistor in my NC3006.

Has anyone else noticed similar odd behavior with Prelim8 when using a thermistor?

Do I have a bad thermistor in my NC3006?

 

[justin_le]

Do I have a bad thermistor in my NC3006?

Quite possibly, or wiring interference between the CA's thremistor plug and Aux Input plug or something that is periodically shorting out the 5V rail of the CA.

Can you measure the resistance between the two pins of the thermistor on your motor with a multimeter? If it's fine (around 10 kOhm at room temp) then next check the resistance between the thermistor and the motor phase leads, as well as between the thermistor leads and the motor axle. If there was a break in the insulation in the thermistor wiring allowing it to short to either of these things then that could potentially caused a whole whack of strange readings. Certainly on my test bench setup there is no such behavior and on my ebike which has a thermistor connected I haven't seen anything strange, but I haven't gotten it in thermal rollback yet either since I've been generally limiting the drive to 500 watts.

Hopefully this is just a short with external hardware, since I can't see any way that the firmware would produce these observations, -Justin

 

[mrbill]

Do I have a bad thermistor in my NC3006?

Quite possibly, or wiring interference between the CA's thremistor plug and Aux Input plug or something that is periodically shorting out the 5V rail of the CA.

Can you measure the resistance between the two pins of the thermistor on your motor with a multimeter? If it's fine (around 10 kOhm at room temp) then next check the resistance between the thermistor and the motor phase leads, as well as between the thermistor leads and the motor axle. If there was a break in the insulation in the thermistor wiring allowing it to short to either of these things then that could potentially caused a whole whack of strange readings. Certainly on my test bench setup there is no such behavior and on my ebike which has a thermistor connected I haven't seen anything strange, but I haven't gotten it in thermal rollback yet either since I've been generally limiting the drive to 500 watts.

Hopefully this is just a short with external hardware, since I can't see any way that the firmware would produce these observations, -Justin

This morning the CAV3 temperature setup display (on 10k thermistor) showed 172 C and 0.10 volts. The motor is cold, having been parked overnight in a cool garage.

Resistance across the motor's thermistor leads (pin 1 and pin 2) varies from 130 to 135 Ohms.
Resistance between thermistor pin 1 and the motor axle measures between 130 and 135 Ohms.
Resistance between thermistor pin 2 and the motor axle measures 0.2 Ohms.
Resistance between either thermistor lead and each pin of the Hall connector and each motor phase lead shows as "open", or "infinite".

Should a near short across the thermistor leads and/or a dead short between thermistor pin 2 and the motor axle cause the CAV3 display to misbehave in the manner I described?

Is there anything else I should check, or can we safely conclude that the thermistor circuit in the motor is faulty? If so, how can I mend it?

Thanks.

 

[NeilP]

But seriously for some reason those icons are a bit ...well not confusing...well they should not be..too small maybe? the arrows too small ? Maybe a Prompt , which can be disabled, when the send button is hit..warngin theta the CA is going to be overwritten....please before I frock it up again.

Hi Neil, that's a totally valid point. I thought when sketching them that the "into CA" and "out of CA" arrows would be nice and visually clear, but in use I also need to do a double take and hover over to see the dialogue "write setup to CA" or "read setup from CA" to be sure. A more clear warning sign prior to writing and and a larger and more differentiated read/write icon would help eliminate accidental over-writes like this. We'll do it. Thanks for the suggestion.

Save me screeing up another setup !
I don't like all the 'Are you sure' dialogues that exist in so many programs, where you have to click a confirmation box each time , so maybe after pressing the send button, a flashing countdown timer appersrs, with a warning ' About to OVERWRITE the CA settings in xx Seconds. Click HERE to cancel, or HERE for immediate.

 

[justin_le]

Resistance across the motor's thermistor leads (pin 1 and pin 2) varies from 130 to 135 Ohms.
Resistance between thermistor pin 1 and the motor axle measures between 130 and 135 Ohms.
Resistance between thermistor pin 2 and the motor axle measures 0.2 Ohms.
Resistance between either thermistor lead and each pin of the Hall connector and each motor phase lead shows as "open", or "infinite".

Should a near short across the thermistor leads and/or a dead short between thermistor pin 2 and the motor axle cause the CAV3 display to misbehave in the manner I described?

Yes indeed, tying the CA's ground (via the thermistor pin) to the nominally floating large metal bike chassis via the motor axle like that could result in all kinds of mayhem and would explain everything you saw.

Is there anything else I should check, or can we safely conclude that the thermistor circuit in the motor is faulty?

This is all we need to check. Unplug the thermistor from your CA so that the CA is only ground referenced from the controller and all the strange behaviour should go away, I'm 99% sure of that. In that case, yes to sort out why the thermistor is shorted to your motor axle in the first place I would have a close inspection of where the cable assembly comes out of the motor axle to see if there isn't any wear or sharp points that are cutting through the wire insulation. If so you'd want to maybe address the cause of that before there is any further wear to the hall and/or phase wires. If everything looks A-OK on the cable exit, then the next step would typically be to open up the motor with a gear puller and inspect the internal wiring and see if there's an obvious cause here, like the thermistor lead shorting against a sharp corner of the stator lamination etc.

 

[mrbill]

Resistance across the motor's thermistor leads (pin 1 and pin 2) varies from 130 to 135 Ohms.

Unplug the thermistor from your CA so that the CA is only ground referenced from the controller and all the strange behaviour should go away, I'm 99% sure of that. In that case, yes to sort out why the thermistor is shorted to your motor axle in the first place I would have a close inspection of where the cable assembly comes out of the motor axle to see if there isn't any wear or sharp points that are cutting through the wire insulation. If so you'd want to maybe address the cause of that before there is any further wear to the hall and/or phase wires. If everything looks A-OK on the cable exit, then the next step would typically be to open up the motor with a gear puller and inspect the internal wiring and see if there's an obvious cause here, like the thermistor lead shorting against a sharp corner of the stator lamination etc.

The thermistor circuit has been disconnected from the CA.

Does the 135 Ohm resistance across the thermistor leads suggest that the thermistor itself has malfunctioned and should be replaced?

The motor's cable exit at the axle has a metal spring wound around the wire harness where it exits the axle. It's bent at just the right angle to fit between the disk rotor bolts and the inside face of the dropout. It's a tight fit. The outer heatshrink sheathing makes grazing contact with the heads of the disk rotor bolts that I doubt would compromise the wires inside. See photo. It looks to be in good shape with no fraying of the insulation, although I cannot inspect the wiring inside the metal spring, axle, or motor at this time. It is pretty much as it was when I received the motor from Grin. So, it looks like I'll need to open up the motor and inspect the interior wiring.



Does the motor disassemble at the hex head screws on the drive side, and can I do this disassembly without unlacing the wheel? As I haven't disassembled a hub motor before, can you give me some instruction about what kind of gear puller I'd need and how it should be applied? Upon reassembly may I allow the halves to slam together, or do I need a special tool?

 

[NeilP]

Does the motor disassemble at the hex head screws on the non drive side, and can I do this disassembly without unlacing the wheel? As I haven't disassembled a hub motor before, can you give me some instruction about what kind of gear puller I'd need and how it should be applied? Upon reassembly may I allow the halves to slam together, or do I need a special tool?

DD hub info vid following. geared is different though
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g-pcvtl73fo

[youtube]g-pcvtl73fo[/youtube]

 

[mrbill]

Does the motor disassemble at the hex head screws on the drive side, and can I do this disassembly without unlacing the wheel? As I haven't disassembled a hub motor before, can you give me some instruction about what kind of gear puller I'd need and how it should be applied? Upon reassembly may I allow the halves to slam together, or do I need a special tool?

DD hub info vid following. geared is different though
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g-pcvtl73fo

NeilP:

Thanks for the link to the video. I forgot that there are probably a dozen similar tutorials on YouTube.

The only difference is that the newer NC motor appears to have a two-piece shell with a lid only on the drive side, the non-drive side and rotor being one piece. I suspect the same technique of assembly/disassembly would work, but it also looks like re-assembly might require extra care to avoid pinching the wires.

 

[vanbhills]

First, as an aside, I like the existing pop up time for the aux pot changes. (with the acknowledgment that I'm pretty new so moderate my feedback accordingly)

I've been re-reading the CA v3 guide in terms of max limits. I was wondering about adding a little more clarification for those less experienced (like myself) on determining sensible values for limits or point me to the section if I'm missing something. In my case, I have an eZee rear conversion from Grin. I'm guessing a maximum value would be the lowest supported value of the BMS on the battery, controller and motor less a safety margin?

In my case the battery is the 36v 15ah eZee battery from Grin. This document http://www.ebikes.ca/documents/B3615_eZee_Manual_Rev1.3.pdf suggests <35A for regular use.

The controller is the C3625-EZ_R which is a "25A" controller according to here:
http://www.ebikes.ca/shop/conversion-kits/geared/ezee-rear-kit-advanced-pas.html

The eZee motor has a current limit of "20A" according to this page:
http://www.ebikes.ca/product-info/3rd-party/ezee-kits.html

The same page also advises that the motor warranty is void if the input exceeds 1000 watts.

Based on the above, I guessed current max of 18A (10% less then the smallest limit for current and watts described above) and a power limit of 900 watts. Are these reasonable values given my configuration. I understand that you could further reduce these limits to lesser amounts to extend battery I'm just trying to understand what all should be considered for "top" limits.

I determined a speed limit of 36 kph based on putting my config into the simulator:
http://www.ebikes.ca/tools/simulator.html

Is there a better way to go about determining reasonable maximums to work with?

 

[mfinca]

I agree that sometimes there are too many opinions. I would like a temperature set point for my Crystalyte H3540, but suggestions vary by quite a bit. Sure some people will be more willing to trade life span for more performance than others, but it seems that there could be a fairly limited range with a few qualifiers. No?

 

[NeilP]

Deleted, I was having brain fade and asked a stupid question

 

[justin_le]

I've been re-reading the CA v3 guide in terms of max limits. I was wondering about adding a little more clarification for those less experienced (like myself) on determining sensible values for limits or point me to the section if I'm missing something. In my case, I have an eZee rear conversion from Grin. I'm guessing a maximum value would be the lowest supported value of the BMS on the battery, controller and motor less a safety margin?

Hey Vanbhills, in your case actually your are being a bit confounded by somewhat outdated documentation. With the parts that you have, there is no need to enable any kind of limiting via the CA. The natural 25A battery current limit of the controller is already well below the 35A current capability of the battery pack, which is the main reason that you might want to do a current limit via the CA. In terms of the motor, motor power ratings are not all that meaningful or consistent in any way, and this 36V 25A system on average will be drawing well under 1000 watts on average anyways. Probably 300-600 watts will be your typical power level. The newer (>2013) eZee motors can actually deal with more like 1300-1500 watts on a nearly continuous basis, and even 2000 watts for shorter times, so you won't be having any motor overheating problems with this setup even if you tried.

The speed limit of 36 kph does have a little bit of a rational to it, and that is that with a geared motor that freewheels there is little point in powering the motor when you are moving faster than the unloaded speed of the wheel. The motor will just spin inside the hub slower than the wheel, contributing zero torque while still drawing an amp or two from the battery pack. So with the 36 kph limit, you can ride full throttle even when going fast downhills and the system will shut off power draw at the point where it serves no purpose.

The reason you would use the CA to further limit power is not to protect any components in this setup, but to extend the mileage of your battery pack and/or force yourself to get a better workout. So if you have a 60km trip to do on the 15Ah battery pack, then it would be smart to put in like a 10A current limit (or say a 400 watt power limit) so that your consumption will be dampened somewhat, and your pedal energy will contribute to a larger overall percentage of the total trip and the battery will be sure to last the full distance.

I agree that sometimes there are too many opinions. I would like a temperature set point for my Crystalyte H3540, but suggestions vary by quite a bit. Sure some people will be more willing to trade life span for more performance than others, but it seems that there could be a fairly limited range with a few qualifiers. No?

Motors don't really "cook" until they are upwards of 180 degrees or more. It's actually staggering how hot they can get without actually damage to the windings. But the motor efficiency at this kind of temperature is very poor, so there isn't much point in allowing it to get that hot in the first place, which is why we'd usually suggest in the 110-140 oC range as being appropriate for thermal rollback.

If you want to push it as hard as you can and don't give a rats a__ about consumption and motor efficiency, then I'd set the start of thermal rollback at about 150oC and the end at 180oC.

-Justin

 

[100volts+]

Should the CA 3 be on or off when the bi-direction com port is used?

 

[NeilP]

It tells you in the readme file that comes with the updater tool.

Before using this program, plug in the CA's serial port to a USB/serial adapter, plugged into the computer and assigned to a COM number below 10. Start up the program, and it will sweep your available COM ports, and default to the highest numbered port it finds (usually the USB adapter).

Press the "Detect Device" button, and in the next 40 seconds power up the CA. The computer should autodetect the CA and the CA should go into boot mode...


If this happens, the product and bootloader version number should appear in the Messages/Output window. If not, try unplugging the CA for 5 seconds, and plugging it back in...


And reporting this bug to Mike, as it shouldn't happen. After 40 seconds with no detection the program will report that it cannot find the bootloader, which is a failure condition.

Once the bootloader is detected, the CA will stay in this mode until it loses power, or firmware is fully loaded to the device and verified correctly (the program sends a reset command to the CA when these complete successfully). To load firmware, simply press the "Load Firmware" button, select an encrypted hex file to upload and click "Open" in the file selection window that appears, and click "Flash Device!" on the main program window.

Please report any bugs or suggestions to michael@ebikes.ca!

 

[100volts+]

I'm assuming the same procedure is used for programming the presets instead of using the buttons.

 

[NeilP]

Yes, pretty much.

I am re doing all my settings after flashing a blank profile over to the CA the other day, by mistake, after building up a new workshop PC. I intended to copy my old settings off the controller but pressed the wrong button

I tend to sit down and create a few different scenarios on the software, named accordingly... with different params changed. thenj when I am testing them out I can simply stop, do a quick re flash and carry on small laptop/ notebook in my pack,

 

[Gab]

I have a 24v hall effect throttle that worked fine at 24v, now I run it at 36v, it seems to overshoot for a second or 2 at a slightly higher setting and then falls back to the proper setting. it seems to Hunt around the set point also. Full throttle it stays constant and no throttle is fine also. Could the problem be that the design of the throttle doesn't suit 36v? do I need to add some resistors or capacitors somewhere in the throttle line ?

So its only in the middle where it stands out, I have a CAv3 and I am running it through that also, I played with the throttle up/down rate IN and OUT and both ways I could steel feel that HUMP of overshoot , is their any other setting in the CA that can smooth out the throttle input ? what does the fast rate do ? and fast rate minium amps do ?

or whatever I do with the CA that overshoot hump will always be their as its coming out of the throttle signal ?

 

[NeilP]

No, in general no such thing as a 24 or 36 volt hall throttle. The halls them selves all run at 5 volts or thereabouts, and the controller puts out 5 volt to run the throttle.

If your throttle happened to have a LED battery voltage display, then that would have a separate feed to drive it, possibly using a common negative for the LED gauge and the throttle.

How is the throttle connected? to the CA or re you running in legacy mode with the throttle connected to the controller?

If throttle is connected to the CA, then the voltage of the pack is totally irrelevant to the voltage the throttle sees, since the CA supplies the voltage to the throttle.

By what you are describing, it sounds more like a gain issue ...if the throttle is connected to the CA.

If you have not yet done so, go back to the CA Userguide and start again, getting all the throttle and gain settings adjusted for the new pack voltage

 

[NeilP]

Odd 'behaviour' that may only be noticed be people with a high pack battery voltage, where they have done the mod in the UUG ..."Powering the CA / High Voltage Vehicle Support"

So if any one else has done the mod and is now powering the CA from a separate source with a resistive divider bridge at Vex, I'd be interested to see if you have this 'issue' too.


Could you try something for me so i can see if it is an issue confined to mine or a generic thing.


So when the CA is powered from the separate power source, disconnect either the controller ignition wire so the controller powers down, or disconnect the CA plug or the red wire only from the CA controller so there is no voltage at the Vex point /

Be interested to know if other CA's do this or if it is just mine.

At first thought it was caused by a noisy DC-DC supply, but even when powering the CA off a battery, the screen still scrambles.

I have an early Rev 2 board I guess, going by the fact that I had the small C11 SMD cap on the solder pad bridge


[youtube]B620V1EbiWo[/youtube]

 

[NeilP]

OK, no one? I am feeling all lonely here, no one talking to me



Between my self and tek we have done a bit of thinking and tinkering and worked out what is going wrong for the scrambled screen.

In certain wiring configs when the CA is powered from a DC DC convertor, and the complete ignition system is run via a single keyswitch as opposed to two as in the guide, removing the ignition power to the controller , for Zero Current calibration, is also going to take the HV divider bridge and hence the monitored voltage at Vex, down to zero.
This is when Prefs-Vshutdown comes in to play.

The config in question will be when :
CA powered from a DC-DC supply at V+
Monitored voltage at Vex wired via Pin 1, (red of the CA-DP plug)
Therefore killing Ignition to controller also kills monitored voltage a Prefs->Vshutdown comes in to play

So if, when doing a Zero Current Calibration, and you have wired with single ignition switch, you get the scrambled screen, Set Prefs->Vshutdown to Zero.



I have also got mine wired so the CA DC-DC convertor negative feed is from the 'more positive' side of the shunt..so that the CA sees current used by the DC convertor too. Ground issues to look at here too in relation to monitored and CA supply voltage sharing a common ground.

 

[izeman]

i'd say your CA is hacked by the NSA. but then - what do I know
sorry. haven't seen that before, and can't really help.

 

[NeilP]

Ah . its sorted, check my post just before yours.

it was the Prefs->vshutdown shutting down part of the CA, while the V+ powered was keeping other parts powered up

 

[Gab]

How is the throttle connected? to the CA or re you running in legacy mode with the throttle connected to the controller?

If throttle is connected to the CA, then the voltage of the pack is totally irrelevant to the voltage the throttle sees, since the CA supplies the voltage to the throttle.

By what you are describing, it sounds more like a gain issue ...if the throttle is connected to the CA.

If you have not yet done so, go back to the CA Userguide and start again, getting all the throttle and gain settings adjusted for the new pack voltage

Thanks Neil for the response. Throttle is wired to CA. I did some tests today and I bypassed the CA and the throttle works perfectly fine at the higher voltage so its a problem with the CA settings.

I played with the CA settings, I tried the up gain and down gain, and fast rate and whatever I did it still has this overshoot and fluctuation in the middle throttle position, even if you hold throttle firm in the middle it hunts up and down.. power goes from 50w to 350w (500w is full power) with no change in throttle . 0% and full throttle are stable.

Throttle is set to pass through mode.

On the diagnostics screen and I can see the INPUT signal voltages jumps like 0.5v by itself with no movement ( could this be feedback or noise? ), I had a look at the PLIM flags and their is NO limiting happening at this time, nothing is in Capital letters. Its flag is =awsvt, so since their is no limiting none of the gain settings will make a difference or would they ?

 

[NeilP]

On the diagnostics screen and I can see the INPUT signal voltages jumps like 0.5v by itself with no movement ( could this be feedback or noise? ),?

more likely a dodgy connection somewhere

I'd start at one end of the throttle, the easiest plugs first and test/ remake conections..going all the way back to the throttle innards if necessary.

alternatively a 5 volt out issue at the CA.


What voltage are you running the CA at? your pack main voltage? as the pack voltage goes up, the current available from the 5 volt regulkator goes down.
if you have lots of accessories like Thun/TDCM crank, hall brake sensors, etc etc and are running the bike at much above 36 volts, you will be getting in to a situation where current output of the reg is getting near its limits.

Check the UUG...currently section 5.9 for info on that

 

[teklektik]

i'd say your CA is hacked by the NSA. but then - what do I know
sorry. haven't seen that before, and can't really help.

Ah . its sorted, check my post just before yours.

Ya - we were beginning to suspect the NSA as well....
Neil did a useful power hookup with DC/DC converter that wasn't really covered in the Guide. Unfortunately, like a recent issue pointed out by vanbhills, this had a bad effect on stuff early in the configuration/setup process. Details on this issue and other corrections and suggestions that Neil has submitted will get included in the next Guide revision.

Thanks Neil - appreciated!