Hello ES! I'm glad to be here! Although my first experience with ebikes has not been pleasant. I recently purchase a mid drive kit from an Endless Sphere member. The advertisement was listed in the new section. The seller also confirmed it was new and never used, but refused to send pictures. Well the item arrived this morning and is damaged, used, and completely unusable. (Mudgard damged, mount bent, BB cartridge threads stripped, controller has been disassembled, etc)I've contacted the seller and was harassed for being a new member. Which has nothing to do with an honest sale. So I ask the members here, is there any recourse for this? Any "feedback" forum so other members don't get taken for there hard earned money? What would you do?
Dishonesty in the marketplace
- Thread starter kVAR
- Start date
cal3thousand
10 MW
kVAR said:
This is an interesting situation. I see that you bought it from a person that bought it from another person. I'm not sure if the seller (iovaykind) didn't know of the condition or if he purposely mislead you.
Do you have any pictures you can post? Did you pay using PayPal? Make sure to take screen shots of the ad in case you can/ need to use it with PayPal.
Hi, thanks for your response. I see you have revealed the sellers screen name. I wasn't going to do that just yet out of respect but now that you have, I'm fine with that. To answer your questions, Yes I have pictures and will post them, and yes I did you Paypal. I have contacted PayPal as the seller was unwilling to resolve this to my liking. I requested to the seller a refund. He wanted the product back for inspection and then he would consider a refund. That doubles the risk for me and eliminates risk for him. I'm not willing to ship back until I receive a refund or a guarantee from PayPal. The seller has already been dishonest and I'm not giving him the chance to be dishonest again, at least not with my money. I also cannot fathom the seller not knowing this was damaged. Have any of you ever bought something online and not inspected upon receipt? I haven't.cal3thousand said:
Stay tuned for pictures. Thanks for your input!
cal3thousand
10 MW
kVAR said:
I have no problem listing members in dispute and putting it out in the open for all to see. We don't have feedback mechanism on this site, so honesty and openness is the best policy.
As long as you aren't making any claims that are outrageous or being defamatory, a dispute should be public (IMO).
I personally haven't ever resold anything without inspection. Especially if I am making claims to it's condition. but that is just me. It could be the seller really didn't know and made an honest mistake. Hopefully iovaykind will get on here and explain the situation for us.
marty
1 MW
iovaykind is the merchant.
kVAR is the customer.
kVAR send the merchandise back to iovaykind and get a refund. Problem solved.
kVAR is the customer.
kVAR send the merchandise back to iovaykind and get a refund. Problem solved.
muffinman said:
Hello,
Thank you for your comments. I am glad this thread is getting some exposure. I know being a new member raises alot of flags, sometimes noobs are existing members in disquise, many time spammers, other times trolls or flamers, etc. Although I may be a noob when it comes to ebikes and the Endless Sphere, I am not a noob when it comes to integrity, forums, or e-commerce (ie only merchants, ebay, craigslist, importing, etc). I am a grown man, electric engineer, proud father and a credible person. 90% of my purchasing comes from online such as sourcing software, importing from China, and hobby purchases online. You don't have to take my word for it, my actions and forum contribution will speak for itself. Thank you again for listening to my claim and commenting on my situation. Below you will find some pictures that exhibit the "damage" and the "proof" that this kit is used and not new, and unusable in its current condition. Also demonstrates the kit has been installed. I realize some of the markings, damage, etc is superficial but shows the dishonesty or poor representation of the product from the seller. Please focus on the bottom bracket, the threads are completely stripped rendering it unusable. (if I can figure out how to post them to this version of forum), I can also produce messages and screen shots demonstrating communication between myself and the seller.
Jim
Attachments
marty said:
Is it that simple? He has ripped me off once, should I let him do it a second time? He responded to my request for a refund with comment that inferred he would not send my money back. He claims the items were new, clearly they are not. So when they show back up to him and they are bent, cracked, stripped and unusable he has ammunition to rip me off again if the refund is at his discretion. Not to mention If he did send me a refund I get hosed for shipping. I am trying to let PayPal handle the actual transaction as recommended by a previous poster, the purpose of the thread was to inquire about "what would you do" and "does ES have a means of mediation or feedback. Thank you for your comments!.
That sucks..
But , on the flip side, the bent bracket is an easy fix, the cranks i agree, they show obvious signs of being previously installed ( if actually used, and how much, impossible to tell ) and the bottom bracket... have you tried installing it ? these threads do not need to support huge forces and bad machining is common..
Not saying that this is ok by any stretch, just wondering if it's salvageable.. instead of wasting money by shipping stuff around.
Ypedal said:
That sucks..
But , on the flip side, the bent bracket is an easy fix, the cranks i agree, they show obvious signs of being previously installed ( if actually used, and how much, impossible to tell ) and the bottom bracket... have you tried installing it ? these threads do not need to support huge forces and bad machining is common..
Not saying that this is ok by any stretch, just wondering if it's salvageable.. instead of wasting money by shipping stuff around.
Thanks for your input, yeah it does suck! The bottom bracket retaining nut will not thread properly onto either side of the male BB threads. They are damaged beyond repair and with several years of "failure analysis" in my past it surely is not from machining flaws. The damage to the BB is from an inexperienced assembler cross threading them or overtightening. Cross threading typically occurs upon install, and overtightening will stretch the threads, so when removing they flatten. I have not tried to install it. And again this was represented as "new, unmolested, and never installed". All of which were blatant lies. I can post the PM's between him and I if anyone would like to see them, but I'm not sure that gets me anywhere now. Keep the comments coming.
If you send it back with tracking I'm positive that paypal will give you your $ back. They will give you back what you paid to have it originally shipped too. The return shipping you'll have to pay for.
Good luck...
Good luck...
iovaykind
10 kW
Yeah.. don't have the time to read through all the comments. I was at work, and so I responded.. send it back how you got it and you'll get a full refund. Next thing you know I had a paypal dispute on my hands saying I was "sarcastic and dishonest".. then I had a paypal claim on my hands.. so glad paypal took care of this. The item is on its way back to me, and unless its completely trashed I'll take it back.
Like others have said, I am not a dishonest seller, so I dont know why I am taking a hit here.. was the item in the pictures in that condition when I sent it? No.. the most obvious being a bent bracket. How the heck can I play that off as "new" and think I'd get away with it :lol: Am I going to complain? Not gonna waste my breath. Just not going to deal with new members anymore and call it a business expense.
My fingers are crossed hoping I get it back as close to the condition as possible that I sent it in.. I'll just call the shipping I paid an unexpected cost when I throw this onto my downhilling bike instead of selling it this time around
Like others have said, I am not a dishonest seller, so I dont know why I am taking a hit here.. was the item in the pictures in that condition when I sent it? No.. the most obvious being a bent bracket. How the heck can I play that off as "new" and think I'd get away with it :lol: Am I going to complain? Not gonna waste my breath. Just not going to deal with new members anymore and call it a business expense.
My fingers are crossed hoping I get it back as close to the condition as possible that I sent it in.. I'll just call the shipping I paid an unexpected cost when I throw this onto my downhilling bike instead of selling it this time around
Rollodo
1 kW
Hey kVAR, sorry to hear your trouble, definitely not the first ebike experience ES wants you to have. Let me provide more information about all the parties involved here. I can attest that iovaykind traded the kit with me before he sent it to you.
A little background. I did not purchase it straight from the GNG, but got it from a 3rd person off of Craigslist here in Brooklyn, who claimed that it was brand new. So I figured I'd save on time (weeks from China, as opposed to an hour round trip from home), though it cost about the same, money wise. I was excited because I also got a Greyborg frame, so I figured I'd install both, mount the battery and live happily ever after. Well, all was not well with the battery mount, which I tried before trying anything on, including the kit. I could not fit the battery, therefore I could not use the frame. If I could not use the frame, there was no purpose in having the GNG kit, so I put it up for sale.
A little background. I did not purchase it straight from the GNG, but got it from a 3rd person off of Craigslist here in Brooklyn, who claimed that it was brand new. So I figured I'd save on time (weeks from China, as opposed to an hour round trip from home), though it cost about the same, money wise. I was excited because I also got a Greyborg frame, so I figured I'd install both, mount the battery and live happily ever after. Well, all was not well with the battery mount, which I tried before trying anything on, including the kit. I could not fit the battery, therefore I could not use the frame. If I could not use the frame, there was no purpose in having the GNG kit, so I put it up for sale.
iovaykind
10 kW
Thanks Rollodo.
No one here was dishonest. Obviously neither of us took enough careful attention to check to see if things were actually brand new, both when he bought it from the 3rd person, as well as myself when I traded my x5404 for his GnG kit. When I did get the kit though, I looked into it a lot and didn't see half the things you caught onto kVAR. The bracket was definitely not bent, which would've been obvious, so that was definitely shipping damage from my place to yours (my apologies). The threads, however, . And the chain was completely clean, which was probably why I didn't continue checking in depth, thinking hey if the chain is new, the kit has got to be new. I hope the mud guard isn't cracked, cause it wasn't when I shipped it. Fair enough, kVAR, you checked in depth and it wasn't up to par. When you contacted me, I admit you were very civil.. I ticked you off hard when I was busy at work, and I said "wow, I knew I was hesitant in selling to a new member" :lol: My apologies.. I was really busy at work and using the phone isn't quite tolerated so I was peeved. Either way, I told you to send it back in the way I sent it for a full refund, and you said I was being sarcastic and dishonest. That ticked me off even more because I wasn't trying to come off that way, and as you can tell I hope, I am not a dishonest seller. I mean, if you were the seller, would you give a full refund before you got your merchandise back? I think not.. I was protecting myself too, and by doing so, was called even more dishonest by you. I don't take offense though, I see that you aren't dishonest, and nobody is here. So no harm done, when the item gets back here, unless you sent me back a crank arm and nothing else, you'll be getting your full refund. Guess USPS won in the end by getting shipping both ways.
No one here was dishonest. Obviously neither of us took enough careful attention to check to see if things were actually brand new, both when he bought it from the 3rd person, as well as myself when I traded my x5404 for his GnG kit. When I did get the kit though, I looked into it a lot and didn't see half the things you caught onto kVAR. The bracket was definitely not bent, which would've been obvious, so that was definitely shipping damage from my place to yours (my apologies). The threads, however, . And the chain was completely clean, which was probably why I didn't continue checking in depth, thinking hey if the chain is new, the kit has got to be new. I hope the mud guard isn't cracked, cause it wasn't when I shipped it. Fair enough, kVAR, you checked in depth and it wasn't up to par. When you contacted me, I admit you were very civil.. I ticked you off hard when I was busy at work, and I said "wow, I knew I was hesitant in selling to a new member" :lol: My apologies.. I was really busy at work and using the phone isn't quite tolerated so I was peeved. Either way, I told you to send it back in the way I sent it for a full refund, and you said I was being sarcastic and dishonest. That ticked me off even more because I wasn't trying to come off that way, and as you can tell I hope, I am not a dishonest seller. I mean, if you were the seller, would you give a full refund before you got your merchandise back? I think not.. I was protecting myself too, and by doing so, was called even more dishonest by you. I don't take offense though, I see that you aren't dishonest, and nobody is here. So no harm done, when the item gets back here, unless you sent me back a crank arm and nothing else, you'll be getting your full refund. Guess USPS won in the end by getting shipping both ways.
Well it is water under the bridge now. Lesson learned to not buy without pictures. I'm just still baffled how if the threads were fine when you packed it, did the postman strip the threads and get grease all over them while delivering the package?
That is absurd. The unit has been shipped back in exactly the same condition as I received it.
That is absurd. The unit has been shipped back in exactly the same condition as I received it.
FeralDog
100 W
iovaykind said:
I don't have a dog in this fight.
I have no idea on iovayknind's honesty or dis-honesty ; But I do think he is definitely wrong in his assertions.
The Seller does NOT get to make his own rules on a paypal refund. Those rules are made by paypal.
When the buyer Kvar had filed claim or dispute with paypal, Kvar would have eventually gotten results in his favor : regardless of iovaykind's misplaced desire to "I think not" grant him a full refund.
Paypal was ready to step in, and then the Buyers Credit card company could have also intervened.
Regardless of iovaykind's opinion of "new members" at ES, I feel he should do a cross-check of his own attitude.
Iovaykind should read the paypal terms of agreement he agreed to when he chose paypal. He was bound to issue a full refund or paypal would have. He could have thought he was "protecting himself" but he was seriously close to being in violation of paypal's terms of service.
I can not label that as "dishonest" , "deceptive", or just "plain rotten" but I can say I would have trouble dealing with iovaykinds attitude.
Hope all this works out , but may I proffer some advice to both parties ?
Passive aggression and deception should be seriously avoided . It will be revealed ... eventually. Sellers should examine the item thoroughly BEFORE selling and take loads and loads of digital pics BEFORE boxing the item for shipping. Buyers, same thing, take loads of pics when unwrapping and thoroughly examine and immediately communicate any problems to the Seller.
iovaykind
10 kW
..what?
I never said I would "decide if he deserved a refund"
I said send it back in the same condition that I sent it in.. he decided to go through the paypal claim route, which is PERFECTLY fine by me.. safer for him and I would've done the same if I felt offput by the seller, which I was offputting due to being busy..
Like he said, water under the bridge.. both of us lost out in this case. Why linger on it any longer?
I never said I would "decide if he deserved a refund"
I said send it back in the same condition that I sent it in.. he decided to go through the paypal claim route, which is PERFECTLY fine by me.. safer for him and I would've done the same if I felt offput by the seller, which I was offputting due to being busy..
Like he said, water under the bridge.. both of us lost out in this case. Why linger on it any longer?
FeralDog
100 W
iovaykind said:Yeah.. don't have the time to read through all the comments. I was at work, and so I responded.. send it back how you got it and you'll get a full refund. Next thing you know I had a paypal dispute on my hands saying I was "sarcastic and dishonest".. then I had a paypal claim on my hands.. so glad paypal took care of this. The item is on its way back to me, and unless its completely trashed I'll take it back.
Like others have said, I am not a dishonest seller, so I dont know why I am taking a hit here.. was the item in the pictures in that condition when I sent it? No.. the most obvious being a bent bracket. How the heck can I play that off as "new" and think I'd get away with it :lol: Am I going to complain? Not gonna waste my breath. Just not going to deal with new members anymore and call it a business expense.
My fingers are crossed hoping I get it back as close to the condition as possible that I sent it in.. I'll just call the shipping I paid an unexpected cost when I throw this onto my downhilling bike instead of selling it this time around
iovaykind said:Thanks Rollodo.
No one here was dishonest. Obviously neither of us took enough careful attention to check to see if things were actually brand new, both when he bought it from the 3rd person, as well as myself when I traded my x5404 for his GnG kit. When I did get the kit though, I looked into it a lot and didn't see half the things you caught onto kVAR. The bracket was definitely not bent, which would've been obvious, so that was definitely shipping damage from my place to yours (my apologies). The threads, however, . And the chain was completely clean, which was probably why I didn't continue checking in depth, thinking hey if the chain is new, the kit has got to be new. I hope the mud guard isn't cracked, cause it wasn't when I shipped it. Fair enough, kVAR, you checked in depth and it wasn't up to par. When you contacted me, I admit you were very civil.. I ticked you off hard when I was busy at work, and I said "wow, I knew I was hesitant in selling to a new member" :lol: My apologies.. I was really busy at work and using the phone isn't quite tolerated so I was peeved. Either way, I told you to send it back in the way I sent it for a full refund, and you said I was being sarcastic and dishonest. That ticked me off even more because I wasn't trying to come off that way, and as you can tell I hope, I am not a dishonest seller. I mean, if you were the seller, would you give a full refund before you got your merchandise back? I think not.. I was protecting myself too, and by doing so, was called even more dishonest by you. I don't take offense though, I see that you aren't dishonest, and nobody is here. So no harm done, when the item gets back here, unless you sent me back a crank arm and nothing else, you'll be getting your full refund. Guess USPS won in the end by getting shipping both ways.
iovaykind said:
Why linger? Well you're a vendor/merchant here at ES is one reason.
Your still selling items?
Another reason is that Kvar posted an excellent case to the ES Forum. I enjoyed how he presented his FACTS in a logical, progressive, and consistent method. Pics were very good.
Kvars did exactly as he should have filing the claims via paypal. Paypals' rules required he follow that procedure for both his AND your protection.
On the other hand, you appear to me to be a bit evasive in your response to the problem. Your post seem to affix a third party "blame", then you tended to transgress into a mild weasle-dance of passive-aggressive excuses.
Remember your opening statement? "Yeah.. don't have the time to read through all the comments.".
If those comments had been about me, I sure would have taken the time to read em'.
Iovaykind, you may be an honest and wonderful person ... but IMHO, the attitude expressed in your postings to this thread would lead me to inquire of you further before doing business with you.
I am not a new member; but "newness" is relative, is it not?
If this thread had been about "water under bridges" instead of an Endless Sphere MONEY $$$$ problem with an ES vendor/merchant, I would have not posted a reply.
Stevil_Knevil
10 kW
I hope we can call this 'lesson learned' for both buyers and sellers in the marketplace here.
Might be a good opportunity to modify requirements for new posts in the stuff for sale section?
Requiring sellers to post at least one picture in the marketplace of what exacty is for sale, with a hand written piece of paper identifying the seller's user name and calendar date -included in the picture- would serve us all best.
The 'Need to know before dropping dough' amendment :wink:
Might be a good subject to bring up in Polls and Surveys..
Might be a good opportunity to modify requirements for new posts in the stuff for sale section?
Requiring sellers to post at least one picture in the marketplace of what exacty is for sale, with a hand written piece of paper identifying the seller's user name and calendar date -included in the picture- would serve us all best.
The 'Need to know before dropping dough' amendment :wink:
Might be a good subject to bring up in Polls and Surveys..
iovaykind
10 kW
I am going to a safer seller from now, documenting everything I sell so this doesn't happen to me again. I was RIPPED OFF by kVAR.
What I got back was NOT what I sent.
Look at the power plug of what is sent by GnG:
The power plug of what I got back had ANDERSONS.
The bracket was bent, which wasn't bent when I sent it (okay we'll say this is the USPS's fault for damage) and the mudgaurd was cracked (again, I won't put fault to kVAR for this, though I do not know what the actual cause it)
I KNEW it was fishy from the start with the crankarm looking like that, but the chainring has a crack as well. There NO WAY I would've missed all this stuff when I looked at the kit before selling it as new. Plenty of guys here on the forum will vouch for me that I am an honest seller and I APPLAUD kVAR for creating such a convincing case. I really do. You did a great job, and in this case you won. You'll get a full refund, and I'll be getting the short end of the stick this time. Rest assured though, I will not be ripped off again selling on this forum. I will not be selling to new members, and I will be documenting everything I sell precisely.
For future sellers on the forum, established members and the like, please protect yourself more than I did. I can no longer fight it because paypal only has ONE option for me, which is to say I've received the package and the buyer gets a full refund. Is there anything I can do? Technically he could've sent me a bag of garbage with tracking and Paypal will give him a full refund once the tracking gets through. Should I call Paypal and see if anything can be done? I did not fully document all this in pictures yet, but is there a case that I can fight with paypal so kVAR cannot continue to be dishonest like he has, all while accusing me of being dishonest?
I am prepared to not win this case, but I find this absurd that I have been slandered by a scammer and having the scammer win just irks me a lot.
I am going to install this kit, and see if it powers up.. all hell will break loose if theres actually something broken on the kit that will need replacing. I can deal with aesthetic issues but it wouldn't surprise me if the controller I got back (which is NOT the one I sent) doesn't even work.
What I got back was NOT what I sent.
Look at the power plug of what is sent by GnG:
The power plug of what I got back had ANDERSONS.
The bracket was bent, which wasn't bent when I sent it (okay we'll say this is the USPS's fault for damage) and the mudgaurd was cracked (again, I won't put fault to kVAR for this, though I do not know what the actual cause it)
I KNEW it was fishy from the start with the crankarm looking like that, but the chainring has a crack as well. There NO WAY I would've missed all this stuff when I looked at the kit before selling it as new. Plenty of guys here on the forum will vouch for me that I am an honest seller and I APPLAUD kVAR for creating such a convincing case. I really do. You did a great job, and in this case you won. You'll get a full refund, and I'll be getting the short end of the stick this time. Rest assured though, I will not be ripped off again selling on this forum. I will not be selling to new members, and I will be documenting everything I sell precisely.
For future sellers on the forum, established members and the like, please protect yourself more than I did. I can no longer fight it because paypal only has ONE option for me, which is to say I've received the package and the buyer gets a full refund. Is there anything I can do? Technically he could've sent me a bag of garbage with tracking and Paypal will give him a full refund once the tracking gets through. Should I call Paypal and see if anything can be done? I did not fully document all this in pictures yet, but is there a case that I can fight with paypal so kVAR cannot continue to be dishonest like he has, all while accusing me of being dishonest?
I am prepared to not win this case, but I find this absurd that I have been slandered by a scammer and having the scammer win just irks me a lot.
I am going to install this kit, and see if it powers up.. all hell will break loose if theres actually something broken on the kit that will need replacing. I can deal with aesthetic issues but it wouldn't surprise me if the controller I got back (which is NOT the one I sent) doesn't even work.
iovaykind
10 kW
Thank goodness, kit works. I will consider this a hard lesson learned. I'm still pissed I ended up not only losing time and money but also the product that I had. Again, learning experience. I just hope that sellers in the future will protect themselves better than I did.
iovaykind said:I am going to a safer seller from now, documenting everything I sell so this doesn't happen to me again. I was RIPPED OFF by kVAR.
What I got back was NOT what I sent.
Look at the power plug of what is sent by GnG:
The power plug of what I got back had ANDERSONS.
The bracket was bent, which wasn't bent when I sent it (okay we'll say this is the USPS's fault for damage) and the mudgaurd was cracked (again, I won't put fault to kVAR for this, though I do not know what the actual cause it)
I KNEW it was fishy from the start with the crankarm looking like that, but the chainring has a crack as well. There NO WAY I would've missed all this stuff when I looked at the kit before selling it as new. Plenty of guys here on the forum will vouch for me that I am an honest seller and I APPLAUD kVAR for creating such a convincing case. I really do. You did a great job, and in this case you won. You'll get a full refund, and I'll be getting the short end of the stick this time. Rest assured though, I will not be ripped off again selling on this forum. I will not be selling to new members, and I will be documenting everything I sell precisely.
For future sellers on the forum, established members and the like, please protect yourself more than I did. I can no longer fight it because paypal only has ONE option for me, which is to say I've received the package and the buyer gets a full refund. Is there anything I can do? Technically he could've sent me a bag of garbage with tracking and Paypal will give him a full refund once the tracking gets through. Should I call Paypal and see if anything can be done? I did not fully document all this in pictures yet, but is there a case that I can fight with paypal so kVAR cannot continue to be dishonest like he has, all while accusing me of being dishonest?
I am prepared to not win this case, but I find this absurd that I have been slandered by a scammer and having the scammer win just irks me a lot.
I am going to install this kit, and see if it powers up.. all hell will break loose if theres actually something broken on the kit that will need replacing. I can deal with aesthetic issues but it wouldn't surprise me if the controller I got back (which is NOT the one I sent) doesn't even work.
Are you serious Isaac? I sent you exactly what you sent me. I think you may need a visit to a doctor. You are now calling me a liar, claiming I am dishonest, and sent you items you did not send me. You are now slandering my name. You are a complete idiot. You are now trying to turn this around to preserve your ability to sell items on ES. I have no motive to RIPP YOU OFF. What could I have possibly gained? I merely bought junk off of you that you claimed to be new. Now that the community can see through your bullchit you are trying to slander me. You are a liar, a cheat, and a scammer. And I'll tell you what, if you weren't hiding behind the internet I'd smack the chit out of you like a red headed step child. Keep it up and I will send you bag a gargbage, as well as make a personal visit to insure it has been delivered. So quiet your little boy mouth down and accept the fact that you cheated me. I was over it several days ago, why can't you put to bed?
Rollodo
1 kW
Whoa.
Guys, this is turning into some pornography. I'd suggest mods to lock this thread before it turns into something uglier.
Guys, this is turning into some pornography. I'd suggest mods to lock this thread before it turns into something uglier.
See below for another bit of information that shows how much of a douche iovaykind is. His own words blow a giant hole in his story. He first claims he never looked at the kit, then says he looked at carefully before selling as new. Who is being dishonest now?
If you would like me to post all the email correspondence, pm's, paypal disupute stuff, and the rest of the items that prove your deception I will. I would suggest to stop embarrassing yourself and carry on. I have nothing more to say.
iovaykind said:
iovaykind said:
If you would like me to post all the email correspondence, pm's, paypal disupute stuff, and the rest of the items that prove your deception I will. I would suggest to stop embarrassing yourself and carry on. I have nothing more to say.
