Do enduro frames suck?

[markz]

I'd put trust in a brand name downhill bicycle doing moderate to high speeds over any non-brand name bicycle. Knowing that battery placement needs to be figured out.
http://gp1.pinkbike.org/p6pb8926517/p5pb8926517.jpg
https://www.lightbicycle.com/photowall/carbon-rim/mountain-bike-carbon-26er-wheelset-for-downhill-211.jpg
http://www.bike-trend.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/chumba-f5-09.jpg

 

[dirttorpedo]

A brand name dh rig would absolutely be more solid; probably even necessary for dh use. But I will say I am very happy with the strength, quality, and versatility of the EEB. I can ride to my local trails and then ride them for hours, or go on 60 mile street rides with the kind of capacity the frame provides. I had originally planned on building up an old Rocky Mountain RM7 frame before I built the EEB. I beefed up the shock mounts with 1/4" plate (known to be a weakness in the frame) and got my battery box built before realizing that even though the dropouts were standard, I was going to need to have some fab work done in order to mount my hubbie. Most modern dh rigs use a thru axle so there would be some extra work involved if you go with a hub motor. This and the lack of battery space led me to find a different setup. My current plan for the RM is to get a Cyclone kit for it eventually and drive it out to my favorite spots.

As far as the legal matters that others brought up, I don't really see any issue. Even a 15kw monster is street legal with speed and amp limits set.

 

[MadRhino]

My concern is weight. I mean, when you start with a heavy frame you soon want more battery, more power, more tire, more brake... ending up with a very heavy bike. Lighter weight is better power, efficiency, and handling freedom.

 

[flat tire]

My concern is weight. I mean, when you start with a heavy frame you soon want more battery, more power, more tire, more brake... ending up with a very heavy bike. Lighter weight is better power, efficiency, and handling freedom.

This is the ultimate struggle. You can have power, range, and light weight...pick 2 of the 3.

 

[MadRhino]

I give up range. The mountain is on the other side of the street, and I have 3 places in town where I can charge in 10 minutes. Nevertheless, if I need range 2 extra packs 24s 1p of 10 Ah lipo can be carried on my bike. With 1p, my bike is 70 lbs and I don't want to carry the weight of extra batteries when I don't need them.

 

[skyungjae]

A bit question is how hard do you REALLY ride? If a legit DH/FR rig is what you require, you might want to look into running a backpack battery that attaches around the handle bars. No matter how you position your body, there is no worry of wire growth. When I was doing my stink-e build, I kind of modeled the wiring set up off the ego mid-drive where they have the cable run up the seat. This was incredibly problematic if you like to get up off / behind the seat when you're riding DH aggressively.

Of course, there are pros and cons to this set up. The great thing is the bike still feels like a bike in terms of handling and nimbleness. There are more options in terms of capacity depending on how much weight your willing to carry. What sucks is always having to wear a pack and plugging in before riding.

I understand that running a pack on the frame is ideal, but a backpack is not a bad option you're not willing to compromise on a legit DH/DH feeling set up.

 

[dirttorpedo]

Capacity and ease of setup are really the only big advantage with an enduro, and since capacity isn't an issue for you... I would consider a mid-drive or rc motor on a dh bike. I haven't got mine yet but everyone says the climb a lot better than a hub. You could power up and peddle down for hours on a relatively small pack. You would also probably get better power with 18s on a md than with 24 on a hubbie, then you could run smaller packs.

The weight difference between an enduro bike and a dh is kinda negligible IMO. According to the ebikes.ca motor simulator, you have to add like 40 lbs to notice any real difference at 24s and even then the torque only tapers off by a few pounds of thrust and you lose .2 mph at the top end. Again. I love my enduro but for your needs a dh makes a lot of sense.

 

[Dumsterdave]

As far as the legal matters that others brought up, I don't really see any issue. Even a 15kw monster is street legal with speed and amp limits set.

im not sure where you are located, but im pretty sure having a motor that is able to go over the legal limit (even if it is restricted) is illegal in most countries. At least here in Denmark it is. Although this is sort of in the grey zone. No one really knows for sure

 

[flat tire]

backpack battery

Battery backpacks are pretty much the worst idea ever. I ride my bikes extremely hard, have jumped at the MX track, and constantly bomb over crazy roots at the local trails. A 12 lb battery hasn't hurt with any of that in fact with the weight over the front I can relax my riding position a little. It's like having your leg out the whole time.

 

[MadRhino]

...
The weight difference between an enduro bike and a dh is kinda negligible IMO. According to the ebikes.ca motor simulator, you have to add like 40 lbs to notice any real difference at 24s and even then the torque only tapers off by a few pounds of thrust and you lose .2 mph at the top end. Again. I love my enduro but for your needs a dh makes a lot of sense.

Then the simulator is wrong. Do the experience yourself: Load your bike 20 lbs and do the same ride as usual, time your acceleration, braking distance, measure battery capacity. The difference is huge. Side by side with 2 identical bikes, 2 riders with 10 lbs difference can notice instantly the performance loss by the heavier rider. Add hills and rough terrain in the equation, and the heavier rider is quickly lost behind.

Then, between my 70 lbs bike and and most EEB builds that I have seen, the difference is much higher.

 

[litespeed]

Potato....patado.....

I've never been a weight weenie. When I worked out all the time I was 230 to 235 lbs....now I weigh 205. My 120 lbs bike feels like a bicycle compared to my Suzuki DRZ400. If you can save weight then go for it...if not don't get ate up with it just ride and don't sweat the small stuff. I have a "one size fits me for all occasions" bicycle. Has enough range for a 10 mile ride or a 40 mile ride.....always fun, always up to 14kw and always ready to go.

Get a bike what ever it is and just ride it. We spend most of our lives making up our minds with little action.

Just do it.....what ever "it" may be! (Drops mic Fred Durst style!)

Tom

 

[flat tire]

I have 2 bikes with 6KW each. One weighs 60 lbs the other weighs almost 80. The weight difference is hugely noticeable. I'm 140 lbs in full gear.

I hope that ANYONE would be able to notice the difference between a 120lb bike and a DRZ400...the DRZ is nearly 3x the weight...lol. As another example my CR125 race bike is like 19x lbs and it's really obvious that it's lighter than a mid 2000s 4 stroke at 22x lbs. When I first started riding MX I couldn't tell at all, lol, but now I wonder how I didn't notice. Just ride more. edit: the point is that just because one bike weighs less than another, and feels like it, doesn't make the less massive of the two bikes lightweight. According to the opinion of this rider, bikes can always stand to be lighter.

 

[dirttorpedo]

...
The weight difference between an enduro bike and a dh is kinda negligible IMO. According to the ebikes.ca motor simulator, you have to add like 40 lbs to notice any real difference at 24s and even then the torque only tapers off by a few pounds of thrust and you lose .2 mph at the top end. Again. I love my enduro but for your needs a dh makes a lot of sense.

Then the simulator is wrong. Do the experience yourself: Load your bike 20 lbs and do the same ride as usual, time your acceleration, braking distance, measure battery capacity. The difference is huge. Side by side with 2 identical bikes, 2 riders with 10 lbs difference can notice instantly the performance loss by the heavier rider. Add hills and rough terrain in the equation, and the heavier rider is quickly lost behind.

Then, between my 70 lbs bike and and most EEB builds that I have seen, the difference is much higher.

Sorry not trying to start a thing here but I have experienced it. With my normal EEB setup my battery box is about 75% empty. Some days I add 18s 3p, 24lbs of lipo and there isn't much difference. Yes the CA I used to run and the Adaptto I'm running now show slight variances, but not as much as you might think. GPS tracking on a 30 mile ride shows almost identical stats. I think intuitively we expect there must be a difference, and there is, but not as much as we would think. Handling suffers for sure. But there is also the fact that there isn't a 20 lb difference in the frames. My EEB weighed 23 lbs out of the box, my Demo 9 was 15. If the set up is the same were talking an 8 lb difference, less if you have to fab or add beefy torque arms.

 

[MadRhino]

Your Demo 9 was a heavy frame of course, yet this 15lbs was including the shock.
Then, experiencing performance difference does require timing accelerarion, measuring braking distance, top speed, efficiency... or at least compete against the clock to compare.
Doing a commute travel at the same speed as usual, let you measure efficiency alone.

What is the total weight of your EEB fully built now?

 

[dirttorpedo]

What is the total weight of your EEB fully built now?

With my normal range set up (15ah li-ion) I'm running 81 lbs. If I add lipo (10 to 30ah) I'm anywhere from 89-105, usually 105 because if I'm going to bother I want it all.

or at least compete against the clock to compare.

This is exactly what I mean. I run the same circuit every Sunday and Monday. Every time I build a bike or make big changes to settings/frame/controller I ride this route and tag locations on my gps. I sprint to the mountain. I ride four trails back to back. Then I ride across the city to the river at about 15 mph. When I bought 9 bricks of lipo I totally expected the results to be skewed, and when they weren't I did more rides. Top speed and best time to the mountain are exactly the same. Best average speeds and power efficiencies are all within 10ths. Trail times ranged about 5-10 seconds in either direction depending on the trail. My best time ever on the Elderberry trail was and still is at 105lbs. At 105, best total trail time was 22 seconds longer than best at 81. City time best was 45 longer. This was all on my li-ion pack. Lately I run the lipo first if I'm carrying it because I can draw more amps on the mountain and I gps but I don't tag so much unless I'm trying things out.

There absolutely is variance but just over a minute on a 30 mile ride with lots of climbing early on is negligible to me. I mentioned the ebikes.ca simulator earlier because the curves it predicts make sense for the results I've seen and the speed predictions are always spot on.

 

[flat tire]

How much do you weigh? An additional 20 lbs won't be a huge increase to bike+rider all up weight but it's more than enough to notice if you're a high performance rider or you measure acceleration scientifically.

 

[MadRhino]

The trail that I speed the most is about 9.5 km. My best time in years was a tad above 14:00. It is nice hard pack, mostly wide and neat, but with 2 sections less than 1 km that are narrow with sharp turns. Saving 10 lbs made me cut my best time by more than one minute in a week. That is with the very same motorization and power, saving the weight off components and wheels.

Weight does make a difference, but the difference is not the same for everyone. The difference is a percentage first, so it is relative to total power, speed and efficiency. It is also a matter of handling and braking, and different riders are taking different advantage of those factors.

 

[dirttorpedo]

Weight does make a difference, but the difference is not the same for everyone. The difference is a percentage first, so it is relative to total power, speed and efficiency. It is also a matter of handling and braking, and different riders are taking different advantage of those factors.

I think what you say here might sum it up better than anything I could have said, and explain the difference in our results.
I was thinking about this on my ride last night. When I hit the first two trails, both 400ft climb and returns about a mile and a half each, weight holds me back a bit. The third run is all climb with a gain of 500 feet over .75 miles and this is where I see the biggest time lag weighted on the trails. I think the only reason I get better times weighted down on the fourth run is because it's a long descent with only 1 sharp turn so the added inertia keeps me rolling and makes up for any handling differences. Then I cruise about 12 miles across town at a slower speed to save power so I can still sprint home from the river if I want. I lose about 45 seconds with starts and stops when weighted here but I think the reason it's not more is that I set a limit and I'm not really pushing the motor. I think if I ran this part faster I would probably see bigger differences because towards the end of the ride the power side of my power to weight ratios have dipped with my voltage. For me it seems like power to weight management is a big factor.

How much do you weigh? An additional 20 lbs won't be a huge increase to bike+rider all up weight but it's more than enough to notice if you're a high performance rider or you measure acceleration scientifically.

I'm at 175lbs. And you're absolutely right, if I were to measure I would totally see the differences. But I'm just not sure I need exact numbers to know how these things translate to the trail. For example, when I head out to the mountain I'm running 3.2kw/4.2hp on my li-ion battery. It's a relatively flat 6.5 mile run. My times vary with weather, but best times and efficiencies are the same, and averages always fall back in line. I'm WOT the whole way except for 3 intersections where I slow but almost never stop. Since there aren't any other handling variables, the only way to run this faster with the same equipment would be to blow through the intersections. This tells me that at those power levels, acceleration and efficiency are pretty spot on, or at least close enough that outside forces like wind resistance at speed make them a non issue. As voltage and overall power drops during the ride acceleration starts to suffer from the added weight, but so far I find those margins to be small and acceptable. Especially since the added lipo packs enough juice to almost double my max power output and extend my mountain time by several hours.

 

[dirttorpedo]

I would also add that 10 years ago when I was pedaling everywhere I was a lot more worried about weight.
What components did you end up putting on to shave the way Rhino? Judging by your style I would say you picked up some things that weren't just light but strong also. Just curious. I still need to buy parts for my RM.

 

[Sean9002]

Just do it.....what ever "it" may be! (Drops mic Fred Durst style!)
Tom

Damn right!

 

[MadRhino]

I would also add that 10 years ago when I was pedaling everywhere I was a lot more worried about weight.
What components did you end up putting on to shave the way Rhino? Judging by your style I would say you picked up some things that weren't just light but strong also. Just curious. I still need to buy parts for my RM.

Boxxer WC fork, Thomson DM stem, Thomson Ti seat post and Ti low rise handlebar, Ti spring, replaced front mud guard with CF, YBN Ti chain, lighter pedals and racing crank, most of screws replaced with Ti, wheels laced with lighter rims and 14ga spokes, replaced Hope M6 with Magura MT-7... etc Lots of time and money to save 10 lbs off a bike. I just ordered a friend who does machining, Ti replacement for my steel bolt on torque plates that I have made 3 years ago.