E-Bike Racing: 2011 World Challenge

[liveforphysics]

I took video of some areas today I just gotta finish editing together the various clips and I will have a video up.

c'monz Lukey videooooooooz :lol:

KiM

Ok ok, but you're gona get me fired KiM! I've got so much damn work to get done before the clock hits 6am, and I'm piddling around editing videos for an e-bike race a year in the future... lol

On a sad note, reviewing the video, I just duct-taped it to my full-face helmet to do the videos. I thought I had the camera pretty level, but it's aim'd downward about 10-15deg more than I wanted... So, you see a lot of pavement when I'm doing the hill climb routes.

I filmed two perspective routes. One is 3/10ths of a mile long, and extremely steep. The other possible route is 8/10ths of a mile long and goes from extremely steep, to a couple hundred feet of flat, then extremely steep again.

 

[liveforphysics]

Video! It's in 720P HD, but it always takes like 2hrs for you-pube to get the HD-encoded versions of a video up. The low-def crap version is all processed I think.

Feel free to skip the hill-climb parts at the begining, and get to footage of the facilities available for the race at the house, the outdoor kart track and indoor kart track (which was closed, but you can see the massive size of the building).


[youtube]fPgqJyhP4zg[/youtube]

 

[grindz145]

I would definitely show up for this. At least if it did end up being at Luke's place or in the pacific northwest. I'm not sure I could work out the logistics (or cash) for overseas.

 

[Tiberius]

Nick,

I'm sorry, and it's true I wasn't making suggestions productive to "the best bike wins". Actually mine were directed to the 2012 version Luke was talking about, and some were just tongue-in-cheek. Part of the difference in view may be a cultural one. For Americans going to the races is an all weekend thing, and due to the low cost and low risk this is a type of racing where the spectators for the main event can be participants in the others. To me it's about generating interest in e-bikes, not showcasing the latest technology, and definitely not the beginnings of a new motor sport. I'm not saying the participants aren't serious about racing, of course there's the bragging rights for the winner.

John, its ok, no problem and please don't think I was getting at you specifically.

If I was sounding a little tetchy its because I've been through many of these arguments before, in organising events in the UK and in hovercraft racing, where I'm a scrutineer (tech inspector). I apologise.

What I find is that within a racing fraternity there are two groups, the serious competitive guys and the fun runners. (Substitute sorority and gals for political correctness.) The competitive group wants simple, stable rules that they can prepare vehicles for. Its the other group that keep asking for changes, because someone has found a new engine type, or to create bizarre new formulas that they hope the competitive guys will keep away from.

Outside the racing fraternity there is another group. They say "what does it prove?" and keep trying to turn it into a consumer test of which machine is best.

Generally, I think we should try to accommodate the first two groups and ignore the third. They don't "get it", and they probably wouldn't come anyway.

Yes, we want a weekend event rather than one main race, and yes we want to get as many people on the track as possible. I do actually see it as the beginning of a new motor sport. One that is more accessible to more people than a lot of ICE powered sports, and one that is more acceptable politically if times get tough for motorsport. One of the nice things about an e-bike race is that you can hear the spectators cheering you on. But one problem we must avoid is that of having 120 entrants, 120 classes and 120 prizes.

[/rant off]

Nick

PS. I am actually pleased and impressed with the discussion here and the enthusiasm on ES about this. I'm still reeling from the reception on the German forum

 

[bzhwindtalker]

Don't you think a weight limit would be pointless with a claimer's price low?
It would naturally limit the number of lipo or whatever battery you choose to use, hub mens could use their x5 with all batt they can pack in 2k$, and RC mens could make a really powerful bike with great handling, starting maybe with a better frame?
Just an idea...
The only problem would be 30kg bikes racing with 50kg ones, but that should be manageable no?

 

[grindz145]

Thats a good point. If someone had a bike and wanted to compete with a big lead pack, they couldn't compete even though their bike wasn't exceedingly expensive.

I bet if we gained enough momentum we could get a post on autobloggreen or something and get an uncanny number of participants... although maybe its best that we don't if were going to do it in Luke's parent's backyard

 

[GrayKard]

Don't you think a weight limit would be pointless with a claimer's price low?
It would naturally limit the number of lipo or whatever battery you choose to use, hub mens could use their x5 with all batt they can pack in 2k$, and RC mens could make a really powerful bike with great handling, starting maybe with a better frame?
Just an idea...
The only problem would be 30kg bikes racing with 50kg ones, but that should be manageable no?

That does fix a lot of objections. It should keep pricey Emotorcycles out too. I like this idea.

If you put tons of hours fabricating frames and parts you better be prepared to lose all that work too. People who like doing custom work still will do it, they just won't go overboard (maybe...).

You can do a good fast bike for around 2k and if you decide to go over that and you win then that's your decision.

Gary

 

[dozentrio]

What if there are people who don't mind losing their bike, and just want to WIN! I mean, I guess we can assume that there'll be relatively few of these people, and maybe the joy of claiming an awesome bike outweighs the fact that someone is guaranteed to win because they spent an exorbitant amount of time and resources on it.

 

[dogman dan]

Then there's the whole field wanting to claim a nice bike cheap.

But,,, what if the guy just murdered those expensive batteries? Sure you can have em, 30s lipo all at 1.5v per cell. :lol:

Looks like a great place to base a bunch of ebike racers, especially compared to motel rooms!

 

[SoSauty]

Luke, the outdoor track facilities look incredulous, though I'm intimidated by the length (ie; hi-speeds) of the straights. Thanks for taking the time to video. I gotta find your track on Google Earth and get a better sense of those menacing (to me) straights. ((Here's what I see; a 50M straight with a hi-speed sweeping curve into another 50M straight,(experts, how fast is this?) another straight closer to 60M, and turn alternatives to break up the other straights). (July with average rainfall of 0.75" and hi-temp of 75f sounds nice)

Since the Spooky Tooth Tucson race, the E-bike Race concept has been on my mind. It's affordable, its fast enough to be exciting, it's not prepackaged off the shelf, tinkerers can design, create, and innovate. What will it look like in 5 years? Will there be many groups with regional guidelines and no way for markets to address mass manufacturing for any single one? Will it become a monster electric motor attached to a poorly receptive 2 wheeled thing with useless pedals sport suitable only for those with who believe their bodies built of rubber? Will event organizers be able to obtain insurance in 2015?? I trust the leaders here on ES, to be the needed Superman heroes of our time.

America has a chance to do this according to a Spirit of Free competition; unfettered by a bunch of classes designed to help people feel good (gag me with a pitchfork) yet inclusive to e-bikers from other continents, resulting in shared innovations that will benefit a world society.

How can we shape our sport (insert hobby, passion, livelyhood, _________. . .) to be the pinnacle of fun, yet safe enough to avoid a catastrophic incident the same year of its' birth? IMO, a weight limit is the most unfettered, simplistic rule. As Tiberus said, 88lbs defines an E-motorcycle, that should be much less for a bare knuckled racing bike. Luke convincingly explained that even at 70lbs, we're on the brink of pedals being useless appendages and speeds approaching the need to hire an ambulance to attend the main event. If 20mph or 30kph is the upper legal limits, will our bicycle helmets be good enough for 50mph/80kph racers? How do I convince wifey that I won't be picking up a 3rd concussion + brain damage?

If Tiberus weighs 165lbs, does he fear a scrawny 100lb challenger? The claimer rule looks necessary, yet not sufficient to clearly define a world champion that's not dominated by either an aristocratic budget or honkingly huge motor. A 90lb E-bike that would ruin a public transit bus bike carrier, and a sport that's as strenous as riding around on a golf cart, isn't a sport that will get respect. Keep pedalling a significant component, have race rules that only reward the most innovative/ toughest competitors, and don't destroy ourselves gambling unneccessarily on safety.

Don't worry about having more fun than hippies at Woodstock. Throw in a hill climb, a stock communter bike heat, my thought is perhaps a 16" or 20" folder class for those who want the challenge of sneaking a little racer into a suitcase and on an airline. Ride between beers, show newbies what a cycle anayst is for, maybe show off some controller mods on Saturaday, get to the heart of fun Sunday morning with all the laid back class specific heats & pre-race heat, then the finale to crown the World Champion E-biker mid-day. Whow

 

[John in CR]

You guys don't seem to have an idea of how powerful an 88lb ebike can be. My bike came in right at 90lbs with a 30lb hub motor wheel, 1.5kwh of konions, and a steel frame. With a smaller tire and rearrange the pack 1.5 times the voltage and it would be dangerously fast with 245lb me on it. That bike pales compared to what guys like Luke, Tiberius, Thud, et al are going to come up with. Make no mistake, whether it's 70lb or 88lb, they're going to have electric motorcycles with pedals, that old farts that heal slow and have families to support like me have no business. Races along the lines of the Spooky Tooth thing, sure I'd ride, but not something a lot closer to Luke's super moto clip, especially with others on the track with limited experience like me. I assure you classes are needed. Those who want to go for the open class, have at it, and the weight limit sounds like a fine way to limit it, but still no one has addressed the fact that with the one single rule, whoever is serious about winning better find a sub 100lb rider. A bike to rider weight ratio limit is more appropriate as the single rule, otherwise a dyno test is the best measure (and liable to save some broken bones too).

John

 

[liveforphysics]

Luke, the outdoor track facilities look incredulous, though I'm intimidated by the length (ie; hi-speeds) of the straights. Thanks for taking the time to video. I gotta find your track on Google Earth and get a better sense of those menacing (to me) straights.

Here is a link to google maps satellite image of the kart track.

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&sou...98,-122.377141&spn=0.000867,0.002599&t=h&z=19

I'm liking the discussion, and agreeing with a lot of what I'm seeing from folks.

 

[grindz145]

I just got a chance to watch the video, that looks like a wicked time...

Was that an Aprilia ?

 

[liveforphysics]

That was my KTM200. It's a street plated 2-stroke motocross dirt bike.

Unless you mean the bike I pulled in behind in the shed, which is another KTM, a 300mxc with a built 380cc engine in it, and also street plated. Then the little red bike is a CRF230 for my mom, the DRZ400 with street plates is my dads.

I just got a chance to watch the video, that looks like a wicked time...

Was that an Aprilia ?

 

[Demosthenes]

Hehehe, as far as power to weight ratio's go it seems like I have a large advantage in weighing a mere 135lbs. (I'm 6' tall and rail thin) so LFP if I get my powerful RC setup built you better watch out for me in the hill climb.

My two cents is no matter what you decide on for rules you should also have a race for run what you brung don't take it so bloody seriously just want to get out on the track and have some fun or in many cases have never raced before but own an ebike and want to see what it's like to race and be part of it rather than spectating. Of course there wouldn't be any real prize for that race, nor even really bragging rights, but you still need places otherwise it's not a race at all. I know I would love to get my commuter bike out on the track just to see how it holds up on a track.
It's that kind of race that is going to get the most people out to the track.

 

[Tiberius]

I'd just like to make a few comments:

Claimer Price

Its a good way of stopping expenditure getting out of hand, but please don't see it as a reliable way of stopping or enforcing anything.

Its not going to draw a distinction between e-bikes and motorcycles. Over here, you can get a brand new lead acid powered scooter for less than a good e-bike. One day the second hand price of electric motorcycles will be low, and they'll be turning up for their last outing.

A low claimer price discourages people from building for reliability or endurance, or even painting it properly. As Dogman says, its an invitation to thrash the batteries to death. That has implications for safety and for the public image.

For many people its distorted by travel, transport and accommodation costs; these could easily be higher than a claimer price. As I said earlier, I'm only going to arrange one way shipping anyway.

Its too easily manipulated, by shill bids or private agreements.

Don't forget the importance of electronics. Suppose I announce that the reason my bike goes so well is the settings in the controller. By the way, they are erased every time its powered down and I load new ones in for each race. Or suppose it runs on my own proprietary software, which is in volatile memory. To me, its a working bike; to anyone else its an unfathomable pile of spares. What now am I bid?

A claimer price is a good idea, but we must be careful not to set it too high or too low. I'd expect it to be a threat hanging over people rather than something that was regularly exercised. And be aware of its limitations; its not a substitute for other rules.

Nick

 

[Tiberius]

And another thing

Weight Limit and Strength of Frames

It has been suggested (not necessarily here on ES) that a max weight limit will mean people run dangerously weak frames that will fall apart.

Remember that we are taking about bicycles, not motorbikes. I have a road bike. I bought it last summer for $300 off ebay intending to convert to electric but decided it was too good, so I've been riding it around unassisted. It weighs less than 20 lbs (9 kg). If the wheels, pedals, saddle, handlebars were taken off the frame would probably be 5 lbs max.

(Incidentally, you guys with 100 lb FS bikes around should try riding around on something that weighs about the same as a pair of shoes. Its exhilarating.)

My point is that this is the sort of frame they use in the Tour de France, where they hurtle down from mountain passes at 50 mph with no suspension, without motorcycle helmets and leathers. And, on the whole, they do not die.

Frame strength is very unlikely to be an issue. The reports we have on ES about bicycle components failing are not frame collapses but wheels taco'ing. The most common e-bike mechanical problem is motors spinning in dropouts. Now, that is something we need to address. There should be a safety rule about torque arms.

Nick

 

[Arlo1]

subscribed

 

[grindz145]

That was my KTM200. It's a street plated 2-stroke motocross dirt bike.

Unless you mean the bike I pulled in behind in the shed, which is another KTM, a 300mxc with a built 380cc engine in it, and also street plated. Then the little red bike is a CRF230 for my mom, the DRZ400 with street plates is my dads.

I just got a chance to watch the video, that looks like a wicked time...

Was that an Aprilia ?

They make it HARRD to street title those bikes in NY now. Back in the day you could. I thought there was I saw an RSV in the background somewhere though... no beans just RSV on the brain...

Those DRZs-SM are fun as hell too...

 

[John in CR]

Tiberius,

It sounds almost like you're suggesting that it's a good idea to strap a motor capable of 20kw peaks or more to a very light road bike frame like you have, along with the other stuff that adds up to an extra 50lbs or so. That sounds pretty risky to me. Don't forget that Zero had one of their motorcycles break in half, and they're supposed to know what they are doing.

John

 

[dozentrio]

...one of their motorcycles break in half...

That's how you know you're pushing the limits

 

[dogman dan]

I'm still convinced that the simplest way to keep it pure in a way that doesn't exclude a guy riding a heavy frame is ,,,

1 operable pedals

2 Total specified watthours of the battery is limitied to x. ( what number x is gets argued later)


Riders still get weight penalty, in the form of lugging the weight. Riders still have to limit thier wattage to have enough to finish at least one longer distance heat. No controller changes once you start competing. Let people figure out for themselves what motor, controller, and battery combination is fast given the watthours limit. Blow it and you don't finish. Or you are just too slow and finish last.

The definition of Bicycle just includes too much variety in weight of frames. A weight limit would only work fairly if it has adjustments for different frame types. But those numbers could be worked out based on typical frame weights. Essentially you'd have a weight limit for the stuff added to the bike.
Otherwise it just pushes everybody into a few specific, lighter frame types.

The more I think about it, the less sense it makes to me to limit weight, and the more sense it makes to limit battery size. Not watts, just size of the battery itself measured in watthours of a specific voltage. You run any voltage you want, it just has to be the eqivilant to the standard battery in size. So if the standard was x amount of 48v, to be legal a 36v battery could be bigger, but a 72v battery would be smaller.

It should be easy to police, we know the capacity of everything here don't we? We could easily produce a chart of the legal battery sizes, x ah of 20s lipo, y ah of 22s lipo etc. Each competitor could be informed ahead of time how big his choice of battery and voltage could be. I'm assuming the standard would be 10 ah of 72v or something like that. That would make lame stuff like a 48v 15 ah ping legal.

 

[Tiberius]

Tiberius,

It sounds almost like you're suggesting that it's a good idea to strap a motor capable of 20kw peaks or more to a very light road bike frame like you have, along with the other stuff that adds up to an extra 50lbs or so. That sounds pretty risky to me. Don't forget that Zero had one of their motorcycles break in half, and they're supposed to know what they are doing.

John

Hi John,

I don't think anyone is anticipating 20 kW peaks, maybe a quarter of that. Secondly, I don't know any details about the Zero problem so I can't comment on that.

But remember we are talking about bicycles, not motorcycles and that makes a huge difference. Also we are talking about a race machine, not a production machine to be sold to the public and expected to go 1000's of miles without maintenance or inspection. The requirements are very different.

All I'm saying is that in the bicycle world we get regular demonstrations of 5 lb frames carrying 200+ lb loads over long distances in race conditions. I know that doesn't prove that every 5 lb frame can carry any load in any race, but it does suggest that frame strength isn't such a big issue. Each builder should do his own evaluation, but I expect the possible points of failure will be elsewhere.

Nick

 

[Tiberius]

I'm still convinced that the simplest way to keep it pure in a way that doesn't exclude a guy riding a heavy frame is ,,,

1 operable pedals

2 Total specified watthours of the battery is limitied to x. ( what number x is gets argued later)

Hi Dogman,

Its an interesting idea, but what you're creating is a different type of competition. Don't get me wrong; its a competition I would enter, but its different to the original race so we should be talking about it as "in addition" rather than "instead of".

Limiting Wh is the same as limiting fuel tank size in a ICE vehicle. If its a short race, its like setting a power limit, but in a better manner; if its a long race, then it becomes an endurance/economy competition.

Controlling Wh does have a couple of difficulties, but its a lot easier and more meaningful than trying to control power output of motors. As I said, I'd be up for it, but in addition to the main race, not instead of it. More trophies to carry home

Nick

 

[liveforphysics]

As far as frame choices go, i see it like this. Its a roadrace on a kart track, and then up a smooth asphault hill.

If you want to be fast, pick something to ride that suits the race.

If you're going to race the Indy 500, you dont pick an SUV to do it, no matter how well it can take a hit from a pothole in stride, or pull a trailer, or carry cargo etc. You dont need these functions of an SUV to race Indy, you need the handleing and weight of an Indy racecar, and picking anything else just means you're not serious about compeating.

If we do a Baha-500 style ebike race, or WRC style single track trail race (and we have loads of single track here), then mountian bike frames and suspension etc will make sense to use.

For this race, I only see two logical flavors. Road racing bikes (kinda a no brainer since it is a road race,) and BMX frames if you're banking on low speed manouverability and faster braking (lower COG) being more critical.