eLation 200watt kit (Australia)

Donob,
Yes the elation is similiar set up to cyclone, both uses headline motors, however i think elation has superior motor mount and crank/freewheel system.
Cyclones three crankwheel version has 44t for drive and 44 and 24t crankrings for pedaling.
Elation v2 has 4 crankrings, 48t for motor and 48 ,38 and 28t for pedaling, all interchangable and replacable.
I find i use the middle chainring, 38t most of the time.
Trev.
.
 
Trevor

As boostjuice says in http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=9637&start=0, running a motor continuously well below its design speed generates a lot of heat in the motor and the controller. In this case, destroying the controller.

When using PWM the battery sees an average current cut by the ratio of the “ON TIME” to the Full PWM cycle time. But the motor and controller see an average current almost equal to the peak current due to the “back emf” or inductance current. And the peak current is high because the motor wants to get to its design speed. So for partial throttle, average (effective) motor/controller current is HIGH.

zx6rj1 reduced his driven chainwheel in order to slow the motor down so that he got more torque. He also, by default, shorten the ON time for the PWM and increase heating when getting the same speed. If 38T became drive gear, rpm and ON time are now 79% of former, if 28T then 58%. There is more heat being produced in the motor and controller.

It seems as if along with matching the torque and cadence of motor and rider one needs to think of heat production in the electronics. As motor rpm approaches design speed, peak current falls because “back emf” is approaching battery voltage and since PWM is approaching 100% average motor current is nearly the same as battery current.

I was surprised to see zx6rj1 ‘s comment:
“Exreme pedalling, and the fastest I've been is 42kph with 100% throttle. but this is not sustainable. The battery soon drop and my leg”

On my eZip it’s zero or full throttle and 15 AHr, 24 V Ping gets me 30 miles over hill and dale regularly, though at ~ 21 kph.

I guess I need to think more about how I would use an eLation system.
 
Donob.
30 miles [ 50klms] on your ezip with 15ah is very good range.
All that other info from yourself and boostjuice, will take me a day or two to digest.
Trev.
 
here in USA, only thing I've seen from cops is smiles. They smile at me when I ride by them. My bike goes 33 mph.
 
The idea of using the smaller chainring on the motor (rather than the larger one) still seems counter intuitive.

You would want to gear the motor down (to reduce its RPM + increase torque) rather than gearing it up to reduce rpm by increasing load (and decreasing efficiency).

I dont have an elation system, but rather hacked a cyclone so it runs a 44 drive, 36 for pedalling (using their existing components, the freewheel sucks but sickbikeparts.com have white industries making them a decent one now), reversed the direction of the motor (was CCW, now CW) and used an (previously unused) wire in the throttle loom to connect to the current shunt (0.05 Ohm - 2 0.1 Ohm resistors in parallel) for low-side current sensing (I'm building a *ahem* cyclone-analyst :) )

Increasing the power output of these motors is harder than just soldering a bit more on the shunt though...

The throttle on these is overcomplicated - its more than a hall throttle, its got a pic microcontroller that handles the LVC etc - If anyone wants to know the levels at which the LED's light - Green >22V, Yellow = 22V Red 21.5V Red Blinking (applies a voltage to the brake connector) 18.1V. Throttle map is annoying, very easy to program another PIC to have a revised map (I should do this actually ~ there are probably a few folks who would like a customisable throttle profile - soft start etc.)

Could be replaced with a hall/thumb throttle - but you would lose the LVC in the throttle...
 
healthyoung

About the idea of "gearing down" rather than "gearing up" in order to slow the cadence at the crank, maybe it would help to think of it this way.
If you make the driven gear bigger with the same PWM "on cycle" the motor still tries to get to the same speed, ( kV times Average Voltage) . That's the speed at which "back emf" is nearly battery voltage and little current flows. If the load is so big that the rpm can't reach that speed, the battery current goes way up. It is basically (average motor voltage - back emf) / (winding resistance). So at low speeds => low "back emf" current is BIG. The battery would be drained fast.
If on the other hand if you make the driven gear smaller and reduce PWM "on cycle", the motor sees a lower average voltage, so ( Average Voltage - back emf) / (winding resistance) is a smaller battery current. The "back emf" will be the same in both cases since "back emf" is a function of rpm only. In this case the battery will last longer. But the motor and the controller will heat up because they see an average current about equal to (PWM full cycle) /(on cycle time) * average battery current because of the induced currents during the PWM off cycle.
So, ' there is no free lunch ' since we have to use PWM rather than really reducing the voltage to the motor we either get high current => short battery life or short duty cycle => high heat load to the motor and controller.

Don
 
OK - I get it... But isn't the efficiency higher at higher RPMs?

This has drifted pretty off topic now :)
 
...I skimmed through alot of the thread and saw it go off track regarding the 200watt laws here suffice to say At 62 years old if it gets you out and about to places you other wouldnt attempt to cycle up (larger gradients) the kit is absolutely effective! I'm guessing you also travel alot further and prolly a lil faster than manually pedal alone, giving you some great exercise also ;)

My two cents on the O/T 200watt law discussion... personally i think it stinks but don't adhere to it and as has been said i doubt Police Officers really pay alot of attention to e-bikers if they OBEY the road rules and ride SENSIBLY...Police have much more pressing issues in their daily dutes than worry about e-bicyclist riding excessively powered bicycles.IMHO...I do want to know though and nobody can tell me WHY are 49cc ICE assisted Bicycles allowed on the road LEGALLY they have a output FAR in excess of 200watt (around 1hp for memory STOCK ... more if the motor has tuned pipe and has been ported) yet us :: cough :: environmentally :: cough :: friendl"er" e-bikers must stick with the poxy 200watt law doesn't make sense to me...[/OT rant]

I hope the kit continues to perform to your satisfaction ...

KiM
 
I agree Kim,
I guess we will never be able to nut out the mind set of the politicians and law makers in aus. :roll:
Trev.
 
AussieJester said:
...I skimmed through alot of the thread and saw it go off track regarding the 200watt laws here suffice to say At 62 years old if it gets you out and about to places you other wouldnt attempt to cycle up (larger gradients) the kit is absolutely effective! I'm guessing you also travel alot further and prolly a lil faster than manually pedal alone, giving you some great exercise also ;)

My two cents on the O/T 200watt law discussion... personally i think it stinks but don't adhere to it and as has been said i doubt Police Officers really pay alot of attention to e-bikers if they OBEY the road rules and ride SENSIBLY...Police have much more pressing issues in their daily dutes than worry about e-bicyclist riding excessively powered bicycles.IMHO...I do want to know though and nobody can tell me WHY are 49cc ICE assisted Bicycles allowed on the road LEGALLY they have a output FAR in excess of 200watt (around 1hp for memory STOCK ... more if the motor has tuned pipe and has been ported) yet us :: cough :: environmentally :: cough :: friendl"er" e-bikers must stick with the poxy 200watt law doesn't make sense to me...[/OT rant]

I hope the kit continues to perform to your satisfaction ...

KiM

They aren't allowed to ride 49cc ICE bikes legally - In no state in Australia are they allowed, even Zbox, one of the importers of the kits, makes no representation that they are allowed. I was warned and my details taken for riding one, so I sold it and got a 180W cyclone setup. Its no longer 180W, but closer to 375W now, but I don't ride it like a tool, and it is a lot nicer to ride than the 49cc pushie (which was somewhat akin to riding a random orbital sander).
 
heathyoung said:
They aren't allowed to ride 49cc ICE bikes legally - In no state in Australia are they allowed, even Zbox, one of the importers of the kits, makes no representation that they are allowed. I was warned and my details taken for riding one, so I sold it and got a 180W cyclone setup. Its no longer 180W, but closer to 375W now, but I don't ride it like a tool, and it is a lot nicer to ride than the 49cc pushie (which was somewhat akin to riding a random orbital sander).


ZBox have definitely altered their website as they did say the Z50 was legal to ride on the road at one point on there, i see they have now also added the "200watt Engine" link with the appropriate header "Welcome to Fairyland... " even their detuned motor they put together in an attempt to make the 200watt limit exceeded 200watt (made 500watt) Fact remains theres 100s of them here in W.A and Police don't stop them, which i guess is why i don't care that im riding an in excess of 200watt e-bike. My brother has been riding his 49cc MTB to and from work for the past 12 months now seen many a Policeman and not once been stopped. It is the belief that the 49cc engine is 1/4hp which as we here know it isn't yet they get away with riding them here! Laws might be a bit more stringent in other states I know but here in the West they definitely are not.

KiM
 
heathyoung said:
OK - I get it... But isn't the efficiency higher at higher RPMs?

This has drifted pretty off topic now :)

healthyoung

I think the efficiency question does relate to eLation kits, but I don't have an answer. Yes efficiency does go up as rpm goes up. But it goes down as more torque is required. A bigger driven chain wheel does both.

efficiency.JPG
 
Hi Trev

The people who take an interest are all male mostly over 40.

My guess is that they are thinking, "if he can do that - so can I".

Some seem interested in the engineering, others are interested in the total bike.

As I mentioned in my post - I think that eBikes are about to take of "BIG TIME" when the products start to be seen in the shopping outlets, rather than online stores or the few bicycle stores that stock them.

Cheers,

Des


lesspedal said:
Des,
Where i ride, not anyone around to see my bike,although when i ride past a group of people sitting out front having a few cans,see them look and can feel them thinking " look at that old codger fly".
Curious as to what type of people take an interest in your bike, age, gender etc?
Trev.
 
Well, for better or worse I decided to join forum again.

I decided to do this as I have continued to have contact from members keeping me 'up to date' on discussions. THANKYOU very much to those people and for their support (especially Trev. As he has said, we have never met but he has become a strong advocate). But I felt the time had come to represent the eLation system first hand again.

I just ask that people accept that although I am willing to share what I may (and sometimes may not :wink: ) know, I ask that people also understand that sometimes for commercial reasons I will not fully detail aspects of design or the reasons behind decisions or where product is heading.

Over the next day or two I will go through posts and answer questions that may have been raised and still in need of answers. Finally, please remember that this is our system and so when I explain aspects of it, I am doing it to highlight an aspect of the design. In the past I have been 'accused' of advertising the product or showing bias :( when I have done this.

This is NOT my intention. Those who have got to know me will know that I will not sell to some people because I do not feel the system is right for them. Although this is a full time business, it does not mean I do not still have a passion for seeing electric bikes OF ALL TYPES thrive.
 
I feel a bit silly that I've only just discovered this forum. Pity, as a lot of this discussion was going on as I was fitting my eLation kit. Still learning how to use it effectively - that takes more than just cranking on the throttle.

Much I could comment on but, to (try to) keep it short, a few points:

I haven't seen any mention of rider weight? ( a bit personal perhaps, but.... )
I'm 85kgs, and I find to get any benefit from the kit, I need more than the 80% throttle recommended.
I'd agree with a point above ( from lesspedal, I think ) :
"I think that with the 200w limit in oz, elation designer has made best use of this limit."
Yes, but for me perhaps 200W is just not enough.
I now need to get onto emailing eLation to work out some options.

(aside - I know a few groups, and contacts within some political parties that are pushing for improvements to these laws - that is our best option here - write to your local members and lobby for saner laws here).

As for the gearing change above - zx6rj1 - seems the wrong way round to me?? I'd have though you'd need to gear it down ( to match motor revs and pedalling cadence), but I have a bit more research to do. I aim to gear down and see how it goes, but bigger 104 chain rings not so common.

I guess I've been generally looking for a better / more efficient cycling experience, and recently also been looking at cruzbike recumbents. These seem to also have results like lesspedal said:
" look at that old codger fly... "
Naturally, some of those have fitted ebike kits too, but much to learn there as well.

thanks,
steve
 
Hi Gannet

I am surprised you believe you need a lower gear ratio. Some people say they never use smallest chain ring.

Can you advise how many gears you have? Are you saying that even in the lowest gear your motor is not turning at approx 80% of full rpm.

The 80% full throttle suggested is to provide an efficient power setting. If you go above this then the motor efficiency (of any motor) will start to drop, but does not mean it cannot be operated above 80%, especially under greater load.

I KNOW of this system being used to pull much larger weights. I also know of people climbing hills "...like never before", so would be interested in hearing more from you to see what can be done to improve your ride.


Cheers
Allan
 
Ok, best place to start I suppose it at the start of this post.

Acceleration: As pointed out often on this forum, we have a 200W power limit in Australia and it sucks. From the very start I set out to operate within the limit. To do this I have 'utilized' every factor I can to get the most out of the motor while still making every effort to maintain the 200W limit. This has included interpretation of nominal vs max power rating, motor efficiency, gear efficiency and bike efficiency. The end result being a system that I believe does deserve the 200W SYSTEM tag.

ONE main advantage a gear drive system will have over direct drive is the ability to multiple torque. This advantage comes into play on take off and hills. There is (always) maths that goes with statements like this, but I prefer to ask people to just look around them at all the examples they can relate to. If gears offered so little an advantage why do cars, and especially trucks have them? Why do bikes, industrial machines, home appliances, etc, etc all utilize gears? It is to gain a mechanical advantage. A car will much better climb a hill in low gear, a battery drill will tighten screws in low gear.

So a gear drive bicycle is no different. But to use the advantage you need to use the gears. Just like you take off from start in 3rd gear for your car, nor should you for the bike. With so many gears available most riders (electric and no-electric) will come to discover the range of gearing that suits them.

Batteries: Since Adam was a boy, everyone has had a story to tell on their experience with batteries. So here is mine on Lithium :) Any reputable supplier will have provided a conditioned matched set of cells to make up a pack. The pack will then have a Battery Management System (BMS) to protect the pack from over temperature and over current, each cell from under voltage and a means to 'balance' the pack during charging. The most common question we get asked is how many cycles (or charges) they can get from a pack. Well, that depends on a number of factors that go into calculating the Cycle life. Key ones are charge rate, discharge rate, temperature and depth of discharge. Don't charge a battery quicker than is needed, it shortens life. I suggest a 3-4 hour (0.25 - 0.33C) charge time from flat to accommodate a work day. Discharge rate will be governed by speed and terrain. Temperature is strongly governed by discharge current. Lithium batteries are at their most efficient at 60 deg C, so actually perform better at this higher temperature. During test we have noted an additional 1-2 Ahr delivered at the higher temperature.

The final factor is Depth of Discharge (DOD) and to me this is the one that can be best used to a rider's advantage. In a nut shell, charge the pack every chance you get, whether after a 2km ride or a 20 km ride. The lower/smaller the DOD the more increase cycles can be expected.

The Most Important Part: You will get what you pay for with batteries. Approx 12 months ago we purchased over USD$5000 in battery packs from a number of suppliers. Using the Medusa Analyzer and a resistive load bank all the packs were put through their paces. Approx 35% of the packs tested failed to destruction. Approx another 30% did not meet spec. Probably the most misrepresented spec is the C rate, or the rate at which the battery is DESIGNED to discharge at. A 10Ahr 1C pack is DESIGNED to discharge at up to 10A CONTINUOUSLY. This does not mean it cannot be discharged at (say) 20A continuously, but it was NOT designed to do so and WILL lead to a shorten battery life. Over 90% of packs we labeled as failures were linked to the C rate.

Time for a break :)
 
To expand on my comment on the gearing, a few posts above.

I'm NOT talking of the gearing of the bike ( pedals to back wheel ) - that is fine. BTW, the way eLation uses the bikes gears was a big factor in my choosing this kit.

I'm talking of gearing of motor to pedals.

Given that we are currently limited to 200W, with someone like me (85kgs, and a bit more with a bag) it needs careful matching of the speed of the motor - (in the small throttle range where it is actually producing enough power to be useful to me) - and my pedalling cadence. ( reasonably quick - 80 ish).

I need to have the throttle wide open to gain any benefit, and it spins the pedals faster than I can keep up with ( perhaps 120 ish? too quick for most ordinary cyclist, IMHO). So, either I'm not providing the pedal assist ( which demands too much from the battery) or, I'm having to pedal so fast that I end up more exhausted at the top of the hill than I do on my ordinary bikes !!!! - which very much defeats the purpose of having the electric assist.
So, ( at least to suit me) the ability to further reduce the gearing of the motor to the crown wheels would be an advantage.
The aim is to have the motor is spinning happily, and the pedals slow enough for me to be making a realistic contribution.

Therefore, I was surprised to see that zx6rj1 had gone the other way, in this post back on page 3.
http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=10867&start=30#p171158

- BUT, if it works for him, then fair enough.

As for acceleration - I've never expected these kits to power you along from a standstill. I've tried it once or twice, in lowest gear, just to see if it works ( it does) but don't ever use that as normal practice. I pedal up to speed, then power on, as needed. Often only for 2-5 kms out of my 18kms commute.

With hills, I've noticed it does make quite a bit of difference if you crank the throttle after you've started the climb, or if you crank before the climb. And of course, subtle variations in throttle settings. So the whole ebike 'effectiveness' result might be a very personal thing.
Think I've experimented with most variations now, and am convinced I need to experiment with the lower gearing mentioned above. Anyway - if I can find the larger BCD 104 4 hole (?) sprockets, I'll give it a go and let you know.
 
Hi Gannet,
I have been riding elation for 15 months now, it does take some practice to get the hang of it.
You need to select a gear, depending on terrain, flat, climbing etc so that the motor reaches 60 or 70% revs then pedal to reach about 80% revs, depending how much effort you wish to contribute
If your cadence is to high, you are in to low of a gear.

I am same weight as you, bike is 23 kilos all up, although i have 300w motor, because i am miserley with battery consumption, i do not use motor to its full potential.. eg, my bike is 24spd mtb, when climbing 5% grade i pull about 10 or 12 amps [ i have cycle analyst fitted], 24v times 10 = 240 watts, bike is in 12th gear, [ middle chain ring, 4th largest cog on rear] speed around 16 kph, cadence app 60 rpm, i estimate i am inputting about 100w.

With regards to the size of driven chain ring, one needs to be a scientist to nut it out, but in real life the size of the driven ring determines the speed that the pedals rotate, however all this changes as different gears are selected as the motor makes use of ALL the bikes gears.
The way i see it, in real use, a larger driven chain ring, 104t you mention will just force you to use lower gears, with motor revs just the same as 48t.
A small driven ring, eg 28t will have the opposite effect with gears, with motor revs still same. In the end your cadence still depends on what gear you have selected.
This is the way i see it and i'm sure there will be someone here to correct me if i am wrong, in the meantime i find my bike works just right for me.
Regards Trev.
 
Hi Steve

I will start at end first. My last post is in relation to acceleration goes right back to start of this posting (as I 'promised' people I would review and address comments made from start), NOT in relation to any comments you have (not) made.

I am not sure there is any need to highlight your weight. I am 84kg and have a child carrier that I tow behind me to allow me to pick up my regular two slabs/cases of beer. TRUE STORY :):), so I assure your weight is not a factor.

I am just not sure I am getting what you see as your problem. You say your cadence is too fast for the motor, but then say the motor spins too fast for you. I am missing something here I am sorry.

Taking a step back. Is the ride too hard for you when you apply the amount of effort you wish to (or can) contribute, or do you feel you are over running the motor speed because you are fitter/stronger than the motor can contribute?

Reading between the lines I feel you are wanting more assistance from the motor because you can not supply the required effort for your desired cadence.

In which case drop a gear on the normal bike gears. Ride the bike as though travelling on a dead flat road with no headwind and not a care in the world (eg. I just finished the two slabs :) ). Then use the throttle to take up the slack of hills, headwind, and that extra 'bit of speed'. To expect more than that from ANY drive system (car, truck or bike) is like getting a mini to tow a yacht.

You need to understand that adding ANY gear drive system is about creating a TOTAL SYSTEM that is in 'harmony'. It is possible that the existing bike gear ratios you had need to be tweaked now you have an additional power source assisting. One of the great aspects of the eLation design is that ALL four of the front gear rings can be individually changed (naturally within the scope of available ratios) to meet the needs of those people that fall outside normal parameters.

"Trust the force Luke" :):)
 
lesspedal said:
Hi Gannet,
I have been riding elation for 15 months now, it does take some practice to get the hang of it.
(snip)
A small driven ring, eg 28t will have the opposite effect with gears, with motor revs still same. In the end your cadence still depends on what gear you have selected.
This is the way i see it and i'm sure there will be someone here to correct me if i am wrong, in the meantime i find my bike works just right for me.
Regards Trev.

lesspedal, I don't think it's a matter of right or wrong. You are happy and that's great. I don't have an 'elation' yet but am considering it, so this concerns me.

You mentioned above that your cadence depends on the gear you are in. I think some people, me included, think your cadence should be nearly constant and the speed the bike moves at depends on what gear you select. By this approach, for a big hill, you select a low gear, maintain cadence and accept less speed. If we accept that, then the size of the driven chain wheel coupled to the 'sweet' rpm of the motor determines how many teeth should be on the driven wheel. If 'sweet' cadence is 80 rpm and 'sweet' motor rpm is 80% of 200 = 160 , the gear reduction needs to be 2:1. So that's 28T driven for 14T on the motor.

I'm not saying any of this, about driven gear teeth, is correct. I can't do the tests. But I do know I try to maintain nearly the same cadence up hill or down.

I think the results of this discussion could lead to an even better 'elation'. Maybe not by mounting a different driven gear, but by a note in the install manual addressing this.

Don
 
Hi Don

You are right about the desire to maintain a constant cadence no matter what the terrain, speed or incline. But I think it begs the statement "If you cannot find that 'sweet spot' (which is actually a range) with a choice of (say) 24 bike gears to choose from and a variable speed throttle, then I am not sure there is any system that will meet that riders requirements".

Again, I would stress, take a step back in understanding how to use an electric system. The rider should ride the bike just like normal; normal cadence, normal gear selection, normal applied force. Again, start by using approx the same amount of effort as on a flat, wind free road.

Now if a hill comes, you would normally drop a gear to maintain your cadence OR apply more effort to maintain your cadence. Now with a powered system you have a THIRD option, twist the throttle to 'supply' the additional effort. But twist it only enough to give the additional effort required/desired. If you find that you are supplying your maximum effort and maximum throttle but it is still 'too much', then drop down a gear. This will/should result in the need to drop some effort, either from the motor or the rider; rider's choice.

Want more speed, similar technique applies. Normally you would apply more effort to maintain your cadence and then lift a gear to increase speed. But now you also have the option of a powered system to 'supply' the additional effort.

HOWEVER, you will get to a point where no matter how much effort you or the motor supply, you will not go faster or up Mount Everest.

This goes for ANY system.

The addition of a powered system should not greatly change the overall ride technique of a person. However, just like getting into a totally different model car (sedan to sports); you should get used to it by driving it with all the same basic skills you learnt from the last car; it may not perform exactly the same or 'at its best', AT FIRST. But with a bit of practice you come to understand why this car is different and after not too long you are driving it using all the same techniques you used in your old car; but with a big smile on your face :) :)

Is there anyone out there who has experience riding a Tandem bike, as I believe it would be a similar learning experience. Maybe they could offer some more insight into how best to work/adapt to riding with dual power sources.

Cheers
Allan

PS. For the 'record", the motors nominal speed at load is 2600rpm (it is all on the label). This is internally geared down by 9.33 (on the label), resulting in drive shaft speed of 279 rpm. The supplied external gears are 14T drive and 48T driven, resulting in nominal crank speed of 81 rpm. I would like to think most people would see that there is just a possibility that the rpm was ACTUALLY designed to meet the average persons cadence of 75 to 85 rpm with a 10% tolerance band.

In addition, ALL front gear rings can be changed individually. So that means the driven ring can range from 54T (cadence 72 rpm) to 38T (cadence 102 rpm) using standard 4 hole, 104 BCD gear rings.

NOTE: This is not the motors maximum speed, but the top speed at which it is operating in the most efficient band/range. It is also not it max power. You can increase the throttle that bit more to get max power, but the 'cost' is lowered efficiency (for ANY motor).

PPS. With each kit is supplied a "How to ride" document of approx 3 pages. It outlines battery usage/maintenance, how to interpret LEDs of throttle and how to start out riding. At the end of the day, just like any other worthwhile pursuit in life, it then comes down to practice.
 
Allan

Thanks for a clear, well thought out response. I wish all suppliers could express themselves as well. I didn't mean that I had the numbers right. I only wanted to explain the process that I would use. You have the numbers and used a good process. Well done.

I guess the only reason I can think of for liking a smaller driven wheel, as zx6rj1 appears to, is that running the motor at a lower speed, while it would be less efficient, would most likely produce more torque. Do you have speed vs torque curves for the motor? Then the question is, does a speed lower than 279 rpm get enough extra torque to make up for the reduction in torque caused by the smaller driven wheel being coupled to a larger front chain wheel. If the 48T were driving the rear cluster and the gear driven by the motor were only an (imagined) 36T, the torque the motor got to the rear cluster would only be 3/4 of the motor torque. So the "new" lower speed torque would have to be greater than 4/3 the torque at 279 rpm. That's possible, maybe.

I think the important thing is that the system is flexible. After the familiarization, some people may want to adapt the machine to them. They can.

An 'elation' is still on my xmas list.

Don
 
Don,
I think you will be very happy to have an elation for xmas, especially the ability to easily swap chain rings around.
Like you said, familiarize with the set up first, then experiment with chain rings if you feel the need.

Gannet,
i would suggest that if you climbed a hill with 120 cadence and struggled to keep up, then the motor would have been doing probably 95% of the work and you exhausted yourself for very little input. Like Allan said in his excellent response, it takes practice and you will soon get the hang of it.

Allan,
Whats that about carting slabs?,,I thought i read somewhere that you brew your own. :lol:
Regards Trev.
 
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