Emrax motor with Emsiso Edrive

[Toby82]

Hi Guys,

I'm currently looking into motor selection, and have been for some time, for a light weight (<100kg) short range street tracker style bike build. Wanting to stick with Air cooled to keep things simple (simpler is prob the better word) the Motenergy ME1115 was at the top of my list. Performance goal would be to have the bike keep with just about anything on the road up to the 100km/h mark (0-100 3 sec or better) but after some calculations and comparisons (Zero SR) with power, gearing etc I feel the ME1115 will let me down.

The other motor I have been interested in is the Emrax 207 running the Emsiso Edrive 400. Obviously there is a large price difference between this motor/controller and the Motenergy/Sevcon setup but I don't want to be disappointed and know on paper the Emrax specs are more than sufficient. Has anyone on ES had experience or even considered using this setup? I would be happy to go ahead with the Emrax if I could run the well used/reviewed sevcon controller but from the Emrax motor manual this combination is only good for 3500rpm. There is little info floating about online with regard to the Emsiso Edrive controller which makes putting down over 1200 euro difficult at this point.

Another option is the Z-force motor but getting your hands on one without buying the bike doesn't seem possible.

Cheers,

 

[Ohbse]

So you got a quote back on the Emsiso eDrive 400? I haven't had an email response yet, however I do have the full price list for the Emrax range. $3270 USD for motor/resolver for the Emsiso controller, plus shipping. The price for the 207 is exactly the same as the 228, so for the sake of 3kg I would probably go for the larger unit. Significantly more torque/amp as well as more amps. KV is lower too so less reduction required.

 

[Toby82]

Edrive 420 is 1170 Euro plus 100-200 extra euro for programming for the Emrax, potting, CAN interface etc. Still waiting for reply about further info on both motor and controller from respective vendors.

I did consider the 228 but for my application I see no additional performance to the 207 if geared correctly. The 228 would have less reduction in gearing which is a bit of a bonus but both motors when paired with the Edrive400 controller (600amp, 120v max output) are going to have much the same power output just at different RPM. I'm aiming for 90kg bike so the extra three kgs is somewhat substantial given no extra performance. I will sit down at some point soon and plot out the differences in torque with regard to controller amps and motor rpm(power) and then the gearing requirements between the two motors at the 100v Nominal (28s Lipo) just to be sure the 207 is best fit. I think it will prob just come back to correctly gearing as I see no real differences when looking at the data graphs etc but I guess when your spending upwards of $5000 on motor/controller you want to be sure its the right one.

What sort of bike are you looking to build Ohbse?

Cheers,

 

[Raptor272]

I actually have an eDrive 400 with an EMRAX 228 that's I'm trying to get working at the moment. I can't get the controller to go into an operational state and trying to troubleshoot slowly over CAN is proving difficult

Has anyone been able to get an eDrive 400 working that could help me out?

I'm hoping I'm stupid and wired something wrong, but I don't have a lot of documentation and their main guy who knows this is on vacation right now.

 

[Ohbse]

What sort of bike are you looking to build Ohbse?

I'm looking to build something along similar lines to yourself by the sounds of it.

Lightweight motorcycle for commuting (and fun) purposes. Target weight of <90kg. Capable of 110 km/h without overheating, but not intended for any protracted highway speeds. Range not critical as long as it's >70km, will end up with decent range just accommodating the power requirements. Target performance is somewhere around 30kw, though more would be welcome. Would like to run the 1/4 mile in the mid 13 second range at around 140kph trap speed.

Emrax ideal for my requirements but is probably just too pricey for my application at this point, the eDrive controller is more attainable however.

I don't disagree with any of your conclusions regarding motor choice, however the only factor you didn't mention is heat. Larger motor has a high constant power rating by merit of increased airflow/surface area, however it will also soak up peaks better with that 3kg of extra mass. May not matter for your application, definitely won't for mine but it's still a consideration

Keen to hear from anybody else who's running any combination of emrax/emsiso!

 

[Toby82]

I'm hoping I'm stupid and wired something wrong, but I don't have a lot of documentation and their main guy who knows this is on vacation right now.

I'm assuming Emsiso did not pre program for the Emrax motor? Would be great to hear how you progress with setup Emsiso support etc. What are you using the setup in?

What sort of bike are you looking to build Ohbse?

I'm looking to build something along similar lines to yourself by the sounds of it.

Lightweight motorcycle for commuting (and fun) purposes. Target weight of <90kg. Capable of 110 km/h without overheating, but not intended for any protracted highway speeds. Range not critical as long as it's >70km, will end up with decent range just accommodating the power requirements. Target performance is somewhere around 30kw, though more would be welcome. Would like to run the 1/4 mile in the mid 13 second range at around 140kph trap speed.

Have you got a donner bike in mind or are you looking at custom? I've been in contact with frame crafters who I hope can work with me on this project. I initially looked at using a Husqvarna 511 frame but after getting hold of the frame realised things would turn out a lot better with a custom job. Our projects do sound very similar.

I don't disagree with any of your conclusions regarding motor choice, however the only factor you didn't mention is heat. Larger motor has a high constant power rating by merit of increased airflow/surface area, however it will also soak up peaks better with that 3kg of extra mass. May not matter for your application, definitely won't for mine but it's still a consideration

Yeah I don't think heat is going to be a too much concern with either of the Emrax models based on the data sheet. Because the bike won't see a high constant speed (110km/h max) the constant power requirement will be well below that of the 207 motor at the higher RPM range. I'm planning on gearing for 130km/h at 5500rpm for best acceleration. This also puts your cruise speed (100km/h) at a higher RPM and a higher constant power output for the motor. When it comes to dealing with heat from peak outputs I figure with a total mass of around 180kg (including rider) you are not going to be pulling high currents for much time before the bike reaches desired speed or even top speed. Hills or hard riding may heat things up somewhat but with motor having a max constant power output of around 25kw (depending on RPM) I don't see heat being too much of an issue. Have you considered what battery you may use?

Cheers,

 

[Raptor272]

I'm assuming Emsiso did not pre program for the Emrax motor? Would be great to hear how you progress with setup Emsiso support etc. What are you using the setup in?

Actually, it was pre programmed. My understanding was that I could wire it up and it would be ready to use without any modification from me, but the guy who programmed it for me is the one on vacation until August.

I'm using the combo on an experimental aircraft, where high power to weight ratios are needed. According to the specs it should work great, it just seems like I had really poor timing in finally hooking it up.

 

[Ohbse]

I'm afraid we might not be too helpful in resolving your issue but we would be very interested to hear how it goes for you. It's the unfortunate nature of small businesses. Success brings its own challenges too.

Regarding bike build, the plan is to re-purpose an 85cc race bike chassis like a Honda CR85R, Suzuki RM85, Kawasaki KX85 or Yamaha YX85. 17" 2.5" rim in the rear, standard 17" in the front. Suitable road rubber. Lower the front ~100mm, lowering link in the rear while extending the swingarm about 80mm. Rake reduced to around 25 degrees. Suitable spring rate changes and revalve shocks to suit. Modify seat/subframe to correct the seating position with the geometry changes. I would ditch all the motocross plastics, front and rear fenders and obviously add lighting/plate holder etc.

Choice in donor down to many reasons, primarily because they're strong and light. They're also very available and dirt cheap, considering the quality of components it's the bargain of the century. High end bicycle forks are $1k all by themselves, I've got dozens of good runners with low hours to choose from for <$2k NZD. Sell the ICE running gear and I might be able to recoup another $400. All up I think rolling chassis with appropriate geometry and riding position should be <$3k and around 50kg. There are still some unknowns regarding chain line etc but I think it's workable.

Keen to see anything you've worked up regarding frame design. I'm certainly not opposed to going custom with the frame, I would probably still buy an 85cc donor just for the other components. The forks are good quality, brakes are up to snuff for the target weight we're talking about, swingarms /linkages etc all bulletproof. Chopping off the head tube section and the swingarm/linkage mounting section and going custom in between would open up a world of possibilities.

Battery wise I would prefer to go with an 18650 based pack as I have experience building them and have had very good success with the 1.8kwh pack in use on my current bike. In order to get the peak power delivery up I may also run a parallel pack much smaller in size built from high end lipo. Something like 28s35ah of Samsung 25R or LG HE4 in parallel with 28s5ah of HK Turnigy A-Spec will deliver something like 20mohm pack IR and about 22kg all up. 4.5kwh total, so 'city' range would be something like 100km at a guess. Highway obviously a bit less but still reasonable.

Still playing with different pack compositions, can increase power density further at the expense of energy. It is a little difficult to get accurate cell level IR measurements so I'm having to take educated guesses based on a wealth of varied results. Potentially a three tiered battery with high capacity 18650's, power 18650's and high C lipo could be the best compromise.

 

[Scott]

The other motor I have been interested in is the Emrax 207 running the Emsiso Edrive 400. Obviously there is a large price difference between this motor/controller and the Motenergy/Sevcon setup but I don't want to be disappointed and know on paper the Emrax specs are more than sufficient. Has anyone on ES had experience or even considered using this setup?

Hi Toby

I am on the UW's Formula SAE team and we are currently using dual rear Enstroj Emrax 207 motors so we can do torque vectoring. The motors perform very well, we actually wouldn't mind a smaller motor if they made one. While we have the ability to use more than 80kW between the two 207's we are traction limited to using much less than 80kW most of the time. However we are using Unitek inverters instead of the Emsiso Edrive.

 

[Toby82]

I am on the UW's Formula SAE team and we are currently using dual rear Enstroj Emrax 207 motors so we can do torque vectoring. The motors perform very well, we actually wouldn't mind a smaller motor if they made one. While we have the ability to use more than 80kW between the two 207's we are traction limited to using much less than 80kW most of the time. However we are using Unitek inverters instead of the Emsiso Edrive.

Hi Scott,
Good to hear you are obtaining good results with the Emrax motors. Is the Uni documenting the build online via blog etc? Would be great to see the project. What voltage are you running?

Cheers

 

[Scott]

Hi Scott,
Good to hear you are obtaining good results with the Emrax motors. Is the Uni documenting the build online via blog etc? Would be great to see the project. What voltage are you running?
Cheers

We are running a 222v nominal pack (competition limited). We don't really have much documentation online. I was going to post some stuff about it on here but I never got to it. In the video you can see how we repackaged both inverters into the same space that one normally takes up. The inverter is the rectangle box right in front of the motors. This was last years chassis design, this year they are packaged into around 1/2 of the space.

Here is our website http://uwashingtonfsae.com/ecar/past-ecars

I also made this video of the car:
[youtube]mO-MGRbTMCQ[/youtube]

 

[kiwiev]

NICE !!! Video where was that filmed?

What amps are you pulling?

Cheers Kiwi

 

[el_gallo_azul]

Howdy folks.

I just signed up to endless-sphere.com this morning, after doing a Google search on my topic of interest.

I have chosen an Emrax 228 motor, and out of the 3 viable controllers that I have found so far (RMS, Emsiso & Unitek), Emrax have recommended Emsiso and Unitek.

I see that forum members on endless-sphere.com are all over the world, but I would simply like to know if anybody is aware of any Australian distributor of Emsiso and Unitek. I'd rather avoid importing one from overseas.