End of the TEST - 9 Continent - 2813 miles @ 99 volts

geetarboy

geetarboy

100 W
Joined
Nov 19, 2009
Messages
266
Location
Kansas City - USA
Usually 99.4 or 5 hot off the chargers to be more precise. Powered by 24s2p lipo and channeled through an 18fet 72volt 65amp Lyen controller, the motor can get rather toasty after a 7 mile suburban sprint keeping up with 40 mile an hour traffic. I have thought about drilling holes in the side covers like some of you other "overvolters" have done, but I want to keep it waterproof as much as possible. The Cycle Analyst is indispensible for monitering performance and protecting the precious lipo, as I cruise along BMSless. All components are performing outstanding up to this point - knock on wood - Let's see what the next 1000 miles bring... :D
 
geetarboy said:
Usually 99.4 or 5 hot off the chargers to be more precise. Powered by 24s2p lipo and channeled through an 18fet 72volt 65amp Lyen controller, the motor can get rather toasty after a 7 mile suburban sprint keeping up with 40 mile an hour traffic. I have thought about drilling holes in the side covers like some of you other "overvolters" have done, but I want to keep it waterproof as much as possible. The Cycle Analyst is indispensible for monitering performance and protecting the precious lipo, as I cruise along BMSless. All components are performing outstanding up to this point - knock on wood - Let's see what the next 1000 miles bring... :D
Click to expand...

geetarboy - Very Cool Setup Indeed!

Before you go putting holes in the motor - there may be some configuration things you could do much simpler without fear of allowing moisture to enter the hub and degrade performance... In addition, since you have acheived 1000mi at this voltage and you have a CA - some additional details would be beneficial to me personally but also to the community!

In addition - I've not put 1000mi on anything 100v but I have tested the 9C motors - of various versions and revisions (new and old) and may (I stress may) be able to walk you through some basic stuff (and some not so obvious things) to increase the reliability of your setup, the efficiency and also perhaps alter your setup a tad to reduce the motor heat after 7mi continuous useage in suburban 40mph traffic at the same time (without comprimising your power levels).

Would you mind clarifying a few items and bits of information?

#0.) What do you consider hot after 7mi ride?
#1.) Your 9C Rear?
a.) Stock? (you haven't upgraded the phase wires, bearings, etc?) - If you've upgraded the motor or wireing somehow, please elaborate :)
b.) RH205 model - 9x7 Winding on a 26" Wheel?
c.) No load speed, voltage and current (if you measured it yet, if not I can explain how)

#2.) Lyen 18FET, 72v - 65A Controller ?
a.) I assume the 4110 FETs model?
b.) Have you modified its hardware at all (resistors, beefed tracing, etc)?
c.) Have you programmed it with Parameter Designer or are you running the stock setup?
d.) Did the controller arrive configured for 72v from Lyen? - Did you change R1A for the 100v setup?
e.) Did the controller arrive configured for 65a from Lyen? - Do you know what he set the phase current?

#3.) Sorry but how much do you, your bike and batteries weigh (ballpark) in kG or lbs?

#4.) Do you have the serial / ttl output / logging ability from the CA and a PC to log to?

Just to clarify - part of the isse your having, at maximum power - you are drawing 6474 watts or 8.632 hp from the pack into the controller/motor. The output power (assuming 80% efficiency) is: 5768.8 or 7.6917 hp.

The issue is at that voltage and yoru currnet numbers and calibration your generating 705 watts or .9hp of PURE HEAT in the motor.

Remember the bearings on the covers which make it all work are rated for 30mph maximum on a 26" or 349.44 RPM at best - pushing them farther just generates more heat - replacing the bearings with some better (HIGH END) could actually increase efficiency and reduce heat :)

-Mike
 
Hey 8)

Thats very good reliability at that voltage!! be interested to see more pictures and some video of your rides? these 9C motors are great value for money and do seem to perform great!! I dont run anywhere near that level of power but I do run my Lipo pack without BMS and havent had any issues, I balance charge them with a 4 channel charger and monitor the pack under discharge with Lipo Buzzers for short rides and a dual celllog for longer rides.

I am of the opinion that for most technically minded riders you dont need a BMS as my experience in the past has been in all 8 of my other lipo packs with built in BMS is that they caused more trouble than they were worth. For short rides where the pack isnt going to go under 50% DOD i think buzzers are fine, if you are going lower then you could either go to BM6 cell level buzzers on each one or a dual cellog.

Anyway can we see more pictures and video of your ride, Gindc has posted some amazing videos of his setup which is the same as yours, he seems to have problems with melting his Anderson connectors? you had any issues with connectors at that power level?

Thanks for posting your ride info, these Frock motors aint too shabby are they :wink:

Knoxie
 
I tried to post some pictures, but am having trouble with the camera. As for your questions Mike - the motor is a 9x7 on 26 in wheel and completely stock except I changed the anderson connectors to 10 gauge spade connectors. The controller was rated by Edward Lyen for 72 volts, he said it had been tested up to 100 volts in his ad. I used the parameter designer to limit the amps to 45. The bike and me together fully loaded are probably 210 lbs. No load speed hits 58 mph briefly and then starts slowing down. I have had it up 48 mph on the street....kind of scarry - Mark
 
First - thanks for the answers! It's late I need to think about them but by my 4:30AM I'm sick math:

The RH205 9x7 9C has a loaded kV of 485 @ 48v = 10.104166666666666666666666666667 with 150lb load (really 75kg / 165lb) including bike and rider. That is for either 22 or 17A (22A Primary or Battery Current and 55A Phase Current).

So at 100v hot off the charger:

100 * 10.104166666666666666666666666667 = 1010.4166666666666666666666666667 RPM loaded

Given your 26" wheel - I would expect:
1010.4166666666666666666666666667 / 336 = 3.0071924603174603174603174603175 * 26 =
78.187003968253968253968253968254 MPH at WOT hot off the charger but - to acheive that speed (or approach it) you would need additional current although I can't recall the calculation right now but it's more than 3x the power in amps or... see conclusion and recommendations.

Those are based on published specs at 48v

Given your observations:

58 mph no load on 26" @ 100v (would be good to note the voltage and no load current while testing this - then reset the peaks on the CA and do the road test again for maximum speed - use a piece of roadway you can just lay on it the whole time... figure you need 3-4 miles of roadway at WOT. That will give you your peak load current and MPH under the combined load with wind resistance (which at speeds in excess of 14-15mph, it's wind not rolling resistance you need to overcome).

So lets extrapolate your real world results (again having the minimum voltage and max current for no load and loaded would be the only remaining bits of the equation to solve for potential and then figure for certain (within a 95% probability) if your acheiving the maximum potential (efficiency, speed, etc).

No Load Kv
58 mph * 336 = 19488 / 26 " = 749.5 RPM at the rear wheel @ 100v (really there should have been near Zero voltage sag so 100v it is)
749.5 / 100 = 7.4953846153846153846153846153846 kV without load

Now you can figure torque (totally ballpark again, need low voltage and peak current for the 2 tests - sorry I should have elaborated, or write a FAQ and sticky it so that I can refer people to the whole process.

As always and with the above, please correct me if I am mistaken...

1355 / 7.4953846153846153846153846153846 =
180.77791461412151067323481116586 inch ounces per amp (I believe Phase Amps).
aka -- 180.77791461412151067323481116586 / 12 = 15.064826217843459222769567597155 / 16 = 0.94155163861521620142309797482219 foot lbs of torque per amp of input.

Assuming (here i go again) 45A was primary and phase was set to the normal 2.5 x - then you (in theory) were producing:
45 Supply or Primary Amps * 2.5 x Current Multiplication = 112.5 A into the phases for:
112.5 Phase Amps * 0.94155163861521620142309797482219 =
105.92455934421182266009852216748 ft lbs of torque.

Finally (cause I'm fried) lets try to figure efficiency:

If the noload kV is 7.495 RPM per volt input

Loaded max speed was 48 mph on the road (again assuming that was wound all the way out - it would be good to know the current and voltage sine under the load it would have dropped much more than the noload kv at this max loaded speed):
48 * 336 = 16128 / 26 = 620.30769230769230769230769230769 RPM

Hmmm.... I'm not 100% sure (even before I post it) that the following is a valid calculation and hope someone with a much stronger motor theory background or experience will correct me if I am wrong:

620.30769230769230769230769230769 / 100 = 6.20 RPM per volt under 210lb load @ 100v (but with 45A or more being drawn - the pack likely had a volt or two of sag which may make up for this).

With the noload at 7.495 RPM per volt, each RPM per volt is equal to 13.342228152101400933955970647098 percent of the maximum potential (no load).

With our (probably wrong, I'm toasted beat) loaded apparent kV of 6.20 RPM per volt, the estimated efficiency in percentage is:
6.20 * 13.342228152101400933955970647098 = 82.721814543028685790527018012008

So your efficiency appears to be on the order of 82.7 % which I suppose isn't bad for a 12 lb hub motor before freewheel, tube and tire.

Just in case you cared (you don't, I wouldn't) - that means to acheive a legally powered (US law) setup would require:
750 watts * 1.173 = 879.75 watts

So to acheive true output power of 750w (yea there are more expansive areas of loss in the motor to think of, but this covers the largest - yep compound losses too!) you will need to feed in 880w.

879 / 100 = 8.79 primary current and 21.975 A for Phase Current.

That last but was a joke and a sign I need sleep more than ever.

Do you still run the full length of the stock 9C phase wires - between the controller and your motor or have you reduced the length to the absolute minimum possible? Have you upgraded from the controller to maybe 3" outside the hub, the phase wires - even using a replacement length of 12 AWG good quality silicon 200C wire (with a connector too) will reduce the resistance and thus the voltage drop (in theory and my own experience).

What power wires do you run, guage and length? Same advice as above.

Last - try your infineon set for Speed Percentage %2 = 110% - noload and load, then also at higher levels if 110 shows any increase.

Very cool either way, be safe!

-Mike
 
I think I got the camera fixed, here's the abused motor - it's the new version only 3 monthes oldP1200255.JPG this is a fun little novelty, it lights up with pulsating colors - no one pulls out in front of me at night with this on 8)P1200256.JPG I charge my 6s 5000mah on separate chargers with the built-in safety features, it is more of a hassle, but they are idiot proof....and yes I can be an idiotP1200251.JPG I hook-up the batteries in paralell first and then in series with some jumpers I soldered together.P1200253.JPG All 8 of them fit really nice in my topeak trunk bag :DMy E-Bike is my sole form of transportation, besides my feet, and is proving to be a reliable alternative way to co-exist with automobiles in the urban commute. Mark
 
Has anyone tried to put little finned aluminum heat sinks under the side cover bolts? There would be some wind resistance but at 100v maybe not too noticeable. Just a thought.

TJ
 
On a 26inch wheel with 50V average use (Headway Lifepo4 16 cell) on this 9C motor what sort of real world speed would I get if say feeding it with a 40 amp infineon controller?

Just looking at alternative motors for speed. The Magic Pie is great for torque but only gives 26mph on the flat with no wind.
 
Spacey said:
On a 26inch wheel with 50V average use (Headway Lifepo4 16 cell) on this 9C motor what sort of real world speed would I get if say feeding it with a 40 amp infineon controller?

Just looking at alternative motors for speed. The Magic Pie is great for torque but only gives 26mph on the flat with no wind.
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I would think you should top out at 35+mph with 2000 watts. My other bike has the same motor with a 22amp controller and I run it with a 48v 20ah thundersky set-up and it tops out at 29mph using 1100-1200 watts.
 
tjason said:
Has anyone tried to put little finned aluminum heat sinks under the side cover bolts? There would be some wind resistance but at 100v maybe not too noticeable. Just a thought.
Click to expand...

Mounting heatsinks to the existing side cover bolts on a 9C might be the easiest meaningful mod to improve cooling. Good suggestion TJ! Doubling the surface area could halve temp. Location near the perimeter will also particularly help cool the magnets, the first part to degrade as temp goes up.

Finned aluminum heatsinks as you suggest could work, but one has to take care so the don't interfere with fork/frame. They conveniently come precut and pre-drilled for pennies per piece at electronics suppliers
12hs451620ps.JPG


Another option is just plain aluminum discs. These can also be bought pre-cut. Drill one hole in each near the perimeter, and mount on 9C like the leaves on a flower. Make your bike match your 70's flower power VW bus!
il_430xN.119989115.jpg


Perhaps most elegant from a technical point would be one large disc with a centre hole cut to match the 9c bolt circle. Like this but bigger and with more surface area (say 300mm OD, 200mm ID)
bc110web.jpg

Alternatively several smaller OD discs can be stacked with small spacers to increase surface area.
 
geetarboy said:
My other bike has the same motor with a 22amp controller and I run it with a 48v 20ah thundersky set-up and it tops out at 29mph using 1100-1200 watts.
Click to expand...

And if it were a 24" wheel , top speed might be ?
 
jmygann said:
geetarboy said:
My other bike has the same motor with a 22amp controller and I run it with a 48v 20ah thundersky set-up and it tops out at 29mph using 1100-1200 watts.
Click to expand...

And if it were a 24" wheel , top speed might be ?
Click to expand...
I would guess 25-26mph, maybe a little more if you're on a recumbent.
 
jag said:
tjason said:
Has anyone tried to put little finned aluminum heat sinks under the side cover bolts? There would be some wind resistance but at 100v maybe not too noticeable. Just a thought.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...


I like the idea of external heatsinks. I will probably modify the next one, if this one burns up....1300+ miles now and still going strong! Also, I have read other posts complaining of 9c's being loud? I don't understand, compared to what?
 
geetarboy said:
Spacey said:
On a 26inch wheel with 50V average use (Headway Lifepo4 16 cell) on this 9C motor what sort of real world speed would I get if say feeding it with a 40 amp infineon controller?

Just looking at alternative motors for speed. The Magic Pie is great for torque but only gives 26mph on the flat with no wind.
Click to expand...
I would think you should top out at 35+mph with 2000 watts. My other bike has the same motor with a 22amp controller and I run it with a 48v 20ah thundersky set-up and it tops out at 29mph using 1100-1200 watts.
Click to expand...

Got the motor yesterday (2807 on a 16cell Headway 12ah pack) and I'm getting around 26/27mph but uses around 23amps at this speed.
 
Broke the 2000 mile mark today and motor & Edward's controller are performing like new. After 147 cycles the lipoly's, besides a little puffiness on the 15c rate packs seem to have the same capacity as before. The individual batteries only have 73 or 74 cycles on them, because I rotate (2) 24s2p 5000mah packs. Will probably have to change out the rear tire soon - almost down to the kevlar lining. Thanks to everyone here at ES for their ideas and comments! So, let's see what the next 1000 miles bring :D
 
Great to see another 9C living well at 24s and 45A :D And 40 MPH :lol: Tough charging wiring though :(
 
Nice. Really shows how a 9 c can wail for a 10 mile ride. I just love the same voltage on my track racer.
 
This test is over, but the journey continues... I swapped out the 9c 9x7 for a 9c 8x8 today. It is still working ok, I just decided I wanted more power and was willing to give up some top end speed. This test was not to try to define the motors limitations, but to see if it could keep up with 35mph urban traffic with an average distance of 6 or 7 miles one way. It suceeded, and Edward Lyen builds an equally good controller. Thankyou to everyone here at the Sphere for all your advice,guidance,ideas,opinions,etc,etc.... :D Mark
 
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