Fibretech FlyPAN 2015 Dual Diag 12S

[okp]

I was wondering is having a spark when connecting the 6S battery to the parallel balance/charging board (which is connected to the charger which is OFF) is normal. This is getting me crazy. When I watched torque's youtube video on parallel charging he does not get any spark at all when connecting the discharge wires of his packs. How come this happens to me ? Maybe the Icharger 3010B is acting weird ... Just don't know what is going on. I am wondering if I that wouldn't be wise to get a 208B ... I didn't have any of these issues when I was connecting my former 7S 10AH with this charger, and it's 6S... now... not 10 or 12S ! But man, that's another 120 euros !

Maybe better solution is to get. I can have a discount on this one and available on the shop next to my door.

 

[torqueboards]

You shouldn't get any sparks if everything is powered off and you plug in discharge wires first and balance connectors after.

You really are still getting sparks? I doubt the 3010B would be much different than the 208B besides the specification rating. I'm assuming perhaps you messed up your charger before?

 

[okp]

well, charger is as provided; I mean I used it 2 times for charging... this is why I am wondering if the root cause of (one of) my problems is not the charger unit.

I am gonna get this Powerpeak (POWER PEAK I4 EQ-BID) and give it a try - and if no more sparks... just gonna send back the charger to Bruno - just don't know if this can parallel charge natively... as he has two battery input (discharge/balancing)

 

[torqueboards]

well, charger is as provided; I mean I used it 2 times for charging... this is why I am wondering if the root cause of (one of) my problems is not the charger unit.

I am gonna get this Powerpeak (POWER PEAK I4 EQ-BID) and give it a try - and if no more sparks... just gonna send back the charger to Bruno - just don't know if this can parallel charge natively... as he has two battery input (discharge/balancing)

All chargers can charge in parallel with a parallel charging board. It's nothing special. You simply just increase the capacity and the actual charger doesn't know the difference besides it's a bigger pack so all chargers can charge in parallel.

Look up reviews on the Powerpeak. A lot of chargers are crap. iCharger is actually one of the best IMO behind a PowerLab6 or PowerLab8 but those are just too expensive for my taste

 

[okp]

With all my failures and unluck, I am also progressively wondering what is the point of going for ONE 10S or 12 lipo, which is really expensive, maybe custom assembled and quality checked... instead of going with two HK cheap packs that you charge in parallel and connect in series to get the voltage multiplicator.. requires less expensive chargers (you can stick to 6S) and you can be able to change packs if one gets puffy... Some may say... size matters, but well not really as my existing 10S 8AH pack is just as big as my futur alternative 12S 5Ah pack which cost me 75 euros. Well, I maybe be changing my mind on this and seeing less and less the point of having everything embedded in the board.

I used to get many Zippys or Rhino and well, that was consumable materials; got like 300 cycles... puffy, no prob, cheap; I order a new one. done

I will keep you posted but as of now, this project more riding on luck (helped by my paypal account), than riding on the asphalt !

 

[okp]

hey, some fresh news. It seems the charger is fine.

I launched my two 6S 5000mAH in parallel charging - 2A. Something is weird, the charger is trying to balance cells for like 1 hour now (moves from 0.75A to 1.20A) but it continues to put some milliamps.. ultra slowly. One cell is stuck at 4.13V... just don't know if I wait more or just disconnect the whole stuff and decide in the future to limit it to 4.10. I think (and almost sure) that one of my two lipos, one cell (the 3rd one) may be "inferior". Lipos are not hot in temperature neither the charger or power source.

EDIT (30 minutes later): the cell has just moved from 4.13V to 4.14V and is now stuck at 4.14V... damn takes a WHILE, not sure what is happening.

charger is configured to reach 24.20V... which will not happen because of what exposed before.

my concern is that if a cell could be "damaged or inferior"... the charger may be trying to overload to reach the 24.20V... any danger?

any thoughts?!

 

[torqueboards]

Voltages shouldn't shift that far apart. If you let it shift that far you can damage the pack since the cells won't be aligned.

You can try and use a battery medic but it seems that that one cell is damaged.

You also parallel charged it which should balance it completely if it didn't that one cell is just bad.

Either a new pack and/or open it up and swap the bad cell. It's happened to about 3-4 packs in the past when I started out.

You just can't let those packs get that far off in voltage in the first place. If it's a few .xx away it's fixable but once it passes about .5 it always seems harder to recover.

 

[okp]

well, maybe it's the first time but it manage to get progressively to the good voltage on the 3rd cell. Maybe it's not damaged...

lipo is a weird wild world ! one dumb question: if you have plenty of time, what is the point of parallel charging vs charging each lipo separately ?!

 

[okp]

ok well. what a journey ! charging is done. what a comeback of the 3rd cell since it was 4.11V (vs 4.19 for others) ! What about auto limiting to 4.10V the next time?

any opinions on this?! can't wait to test the 12S on the board !

Lipo A - cell meter

Lipo B - cell meter

 

[okp]

just soldering my wattmeter behind the Power Switch. What do you think of this soldering ? no need to put bullet right as they are quite rigid.

 

[BadWolf]

No no noooo!

Please watch this video about soldering thick gauge cables:
https://youtu.be/7t9nT3Hn9b0

 

[torqueboards]

No no noooo!

Please watch this video about soldering thick gauge cables:
https://youtu.be/7t9nT3Hn9b0

I agree, great video. I solder my wires exactly like that except the speaker wire is a nice addition which I don't do. I do wrap it around solder wire and heat it that way and it definitely helps. Always helps to heat it up hot that way the entire wire is stronger and full of solder.

Buying a high quality soldering iron is worth every penny -- it's just as important as buying a battery charger that's high quality and reliable like the iChargers.

I have the Hakko Digital FX888D and works great!

 

[onloop]

Man... i think your thread officially confirms it....LIPO sucks...

All these problems disappeared when i started using 18650 li-ion cells with BMS.

- cells Never get out of balance.
- never have to solder special charging connections
- don't need to spend money on seperate devices to allow multiple battery to be chargeed.
- don't need bulky expensive charger...
- much greater life cycle vs lipo.

I suppose that's why the tesla car uses them.

 

[okp]

yes ! where can I get a 18650 li-ion that equals to a 12S 5000AH?

 

[torqueboards]

18650 is definitely better. LiPo isn't that bad though.

Unfortunately, 18650 requires much more space and will weigh heavier for what LiPo is. To pull the same amount of wattage for 18650 is a bit more difficult.

Sooner or later there should be more options.

 

[okp]

well, I may be interested to try 18650

By the way and thanks to you guys, I just finished re-engineering my deck - took me 5 hours - did again the AWG to AWG soldering according to your tips - new APS PowerSwitch & Antispark is a bit bigger (up to 16S - 300A) which is great; but I had to higher my hard drive enclosure by 8mm to ensure everything is well installed.

After that, I also modified my battery hosting to ensure that the two 6S lipos fit (these are a bit higher than my 10S flat) but the ADS enclosure fits great. I have now 5cms of ground/battery enclosure clearance). I need to find a way to make it easier without having to unscrew each time the enclosure like :
- put the two 6S in series
- put the lipos on the deck battery hosting area - tighten the velcro straps
- put back the enclosure (3 screws...)

of course all the screws inside the battery hosting have been hot glued to ensure no contact.

some photos, I did my best - any remarks or improvement ideas please tell me - can't wait to give this 12S a try - tomorrow !

enjoy!

 

[onloop]

yes ! where can I get a 18650 li-ion that equals to a 12S 5000AH?

I am currently developing this new battery, should receive final samples soon and it will be available for worldwide shipping in May 2015.

But it is not 12S. 12S actually i think is too big for 18650. As you need at least 3P using high discharge 18650. So 12S3P = 36 Cells total. That is actually getting too big (41cm long without any BMS). Actually some people would say that 30 cells (10S3P) is too big also. But i think it is perfect.

The idea is to have as high as possible voltage but without having a giant battery that weighs a lot. So i think 10S is the best option.

So unless there is any other reason for wanting 12S i think you would be ok with 10S.

Also note your 12S 5Ah pack is 222wh, the pack i am building is 10S 7.5Ah, which is a massive 277.5wh...

anyway stay tuned for some more news on this topic coming soon.

 

[torqueboards]

10S 7.5ah would be more then adequate. 277.5wh is a lot about 17 mile range. Cool!

 

[BShady]

As advised, I will charge the two 6S 5AH in parallel and connect them in series to get the 12S 5AH. I got them for a bargain, so worth giving it a try or abuse

Why can't you charge them in series? I was told from the guys over on the battery section, it doesn't make a difference?

I was running my 3s in parralel for charging and series for running but too many wires and too annoying. Now I just do both in series. I used onloops one charge plug connector and it works great! It called a aviation connector. (Would post pic but don't know how)

Btw I also get a small tiny spark when I plug in my 6s battery to charge. I'm useing a cheap IMAXb6 genuine.

 

[okp]

anyway stay tuned for some more news on this topic coming soon.

that's what I'm talking about ! great.

I am also thinking about digging in my board like 8mm (or 5mm maybe) deep; but as I don't have a CNC; I plan to get something like this to do it by hand (I already have the Dremel)

or this

and then reinforce with carbon and epoxy resin - that should be OK as my board is rock solid and already reinforced (Fibretech - double v-lam birch / poplar wood core)

any thoughts !?

Why can't you charge them in series? I was told from the guys over on the battery section, it doesn't make a difference?

I was running my 3s in parralel for charging and series for running but too many wires and too annoying. Now I just do both in series. I used onloops one charge plug connector and it works great! It called a aviation connector. (Would post pic but don't know how)

Btw I also get a small tiny spark when I plug in my 6s battery to charge. I'm useing a cheap IMAXb6 genuine.

Hey BShady,

Well, I don't know - I have read that parallel charging is safer; but I am really wondering (except the time saving), what is the point of charging my two 6S in parallel, compared to charging each one separately.

The guy at the hobby store where I have been friday, is working on big lipo projects (like powering tactical approach boats with huge pack of assembled lipos) and he told me that I have to power on everything, including charger before I connect the discharge wires and then the balancing cables.

 

[BShady]

Parralel charging is faster in that if you charge a single 6s 5ah at 5amps in one hour you can charge 2 of those in parralel (6s 10ah) at 10amps also in one hour and still be in the 1c rating. If you charged them separately it would take 2 hours. It's like having 2 chargers. But this is only good if your charger can handle the Amps and watts. I think that's it!

 

[torqueboards]

Turning Power Charger on Last
You can power on the charger before connecting the discharge wires and balance cables.

But I always mention to power charger on last to prevent any mistakes. Not sure why he mentions it must be on because it doesn't have to be on. I don't see any benefit.

The main benefit of powering everything on after is when I plug in my iCharger 208B it will read the pack and tell me the Lipo Cell.

If I do it the other way and power on charger first - I'll have to mainly change my LCD Charger settings to 4S or 5S depending on what it is.

I'm not sure on the correct method scientifically but I find that powering after I plug in balance/discharge is more then adequate, safer and easier.

Why You Should Parallel Charge
Because, 12S chargers are hard to come by. You can't find a RC LiPo charger for 12S. Most chargers are 1S to 6S.

Also safer since you are using 6S voltage versus 12S voltage - Capacity itself whether or not it is 5ah or 30ah or 60ah doesn't affect voltage or matter as far as safety wise - besides if you short the packs 60ah would last much longer but it's 6S 22.2v versus 12S 44.4v.

Hope this helps lol.

 

[okp]

great! but my question is more the difference between parallel charging two 6S pack together versus independently charge them, one after the other.

except the time saving...?

 

[torqueboards]

great! but my question is more the difference between parallel charging two 6S pack together versus independently charge them, one after the other.

except the time saving...?

Not much difference besides saving time on disconnect/reconnecting. Adds up though if you have 6x packs you want to charge.

 

[bandaro]

and then reinforce with carbon and epoxy resin - that should be OK as my board is rock solid and already reinforced (Fibretech - double v-lam birch / poplar wood core)

any thoughts !?

I would recommend this method above rather than the first. Better yet, get a dremel/router bit that has a "top mounted bearing" as well and cut a template for the hole you want. Simply screw on the template and set the cut depth (make sure the plate of the 'router' mod runs on the template surface and the bearing onto the side of the template so you don't over cut) and you should be good to carefully buzz around, taking out the material. This is almost exactly how I cut out the profiles of the longboards I make. I'll be trimming a carbon one up tomorrow so can snap some pics if you want.

As for the reinforcement after, that would depend if you are taking the material off the top or bottom. I wouldn't recommend taking much off the bottom - probably only the footprint size of 2 lipo cells max - without significant reinforcement. The underside of the board is under much more stress than the top, so removing the material here will cause problems. If its the top, a layer of uni carbon along the length, about 300gsm weight should do it, with possibly an extra bit on the corners if they are cutting close. If it's on the bottom, I would start with at least two layers of this the whole way.