michaelplogue
10 kW
Of course you are right..... LiFePO4 packs never spark........
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Headway Group Purchase
- Thread starter julesa
- Start date
Most all batteries i've had the pleasure of buying have shown up wrapped in various useless layers.. nothing new imo. The price involved does not allow for fancy custom fit boxes, that's all..
For those who have no clue how to wire up a BMS, but are competent enough with this stuff, can simply note the location of the wires, reshape the pack as required and box it up.
The existing boxes could be cut into 4 sections. add a rigid layer on all 4 sides and secure the 4 box sections of these to make a new size box. Involves dirty work but personally i take pleasure in this type of activity hehe..
This is the main reason i was one of the few who wanted bare cells .. if i have to built the pack myself. may as well do it from scratch.
For those who have no clue how to wire up a BMS, but are competent enough with this stuff, can simply note the location of the wires, reshape the pack as required and box it up.
The existing boxes could be cut into 4 sections. add a rigid layer on all 4 sides and secure the 4 box sections of these to make a new size box. Involves dirty work but personally i take pleasure in this type of activity hehe..
This is the main reason i was one of the few who wanted bare cells .. if i have to built the pack myself. may as well do it from scratch.
MidniteTweeker
100 W
- Joined
- May 16, 2008
- Messages
- 121
Mr. Michael,
My Headway pack arrived yesterday and so far is about 98% as expected. Of course, getting it hooked up and on the bike will be the proof. But being wrapped in cardboard and tape is of no consequence whatever. Making a new case has always been part of the plan. What matters to me is what's inside the package and how well it works. And that's something you can't possibly tell from a picture now, can you?
So if someone in the group buy hadn't posted photos, you really wouldn't have anything to offer, would you? Don't exactly have one in your hands, do you?
Here's a thought: How about you share with us what premium battery you use and what it cost, will you?
Otherwise, please be quiet. You have nothing constructive to offer.
MT
My Headway pack arrived yesterday and so far is about 98% as expected. Of course, getting it hooked up and on the bike will be the proof. But being wrapped in cardboard and tape is of no consequence whatever. Making a new case has always been part of the plan. What matters to me is what's inside the package and how well it works. And that's something you can't possibly tell from a picture now, can you?
So if someone in the group buy hadn't posted photos, you really wouldn't have anything to offer, would you? Don't exactly have one in your hands, do you?
Here's a thought: How about you share with us what premium battery you use and what it cost, will you?
Otherwise, please be quiet. You have nothing constructive to offer.
MT
dnmun
1 PW
hi victoria, you should not have to worry about this at this time of day, early sunday there.
i don't understand why there is so much negative input about this group buy from those who aren't involved. as you may know, we discussed the internal resistance and voltage sag of a number of lifepo4 cells back in drbasses headway thread from last year, when we were concerned about the voltage sag and internal resistance of the old brown paper sleeved cells. it appears that the new formulation, or manufacturing techniques that headway manufacturing has introduced with the new blue plastic sleeved cells has been a dramatic improvement in the electrical performance, and drbass has measured around 9 milliohm for these cells. that is very good, in our opinion.
what you should do is make sure that the manufacturing engineers understand how important it is to keep the internal resistance down and consistent, and to keep investing in the best lifepo4 powders and anode coating techniques to maintain high quality, because if they lose control of it then your reputation will be hurt, not because people think the 'linoleum' shields for the cells is unsightly. these blue cells should help shake off the negatives on your reputation from the old brown cells if they work out as hoped.
we are all tinkerers, so adjusting, moving, or rebuilding is more 'fun' than hassle, kinda the distinction of building it yourself. some of us think that the open source BMS that gary and richard designed is the best way to use the cells, others want to have a completed pack with BMS, and some thought the cases was a nobrainer, so when it screws up, there is gonna be that annoyance factor, but the real test will be in 6 months, and then 6 years from now when the cells have gone through their 2,000 charge cycle for those who use their bikes a lot, and the storage capacity is still above 80%. we are expecting that now.
if manufacturing can improve on the cathode powders, or the anode coating to push up the C rates, that is what will gain you more respect, and help keep you on the forefront in EV developments, and put your cells in more and more EV applications.
that's what you should tell your bosses we want from them, manufacturing control and improvements in the electrical capacities. i am a retired manufacturing engineer and actually i have said on the old headway thread that your manufacturing process should assign lot and batch control numbers to the cells to help the manufacturing engineers to create feedback to the manufacturing process from batteries in the field. so tell your bosses to support manufacturing in creating a system to track cells through manufacturing and out into the field, and i wish we could have some sort of data collection effort among users to record the performance over time of the cells, and provide that as a base for your manufacturing group, but very hard to do in reality. BOL,dm
i don't understand why there is so much negative input about this group buy from those who aren't involved. as you may know, we discussed the internal resistance and voltage sag of a number of lifepo4 cells back in drbasses headway thread from last year, when we were concerned about the voltage sag and internal resistance of the old brown paper sleeved cells. it appears that the new formulation, or manufacturing techniques that headway manufacturing has introduced with the new blue plastic sleeved cells has been a dramatic improvement in the electrical performance, and drbass has measured around 9 milliohm for these cells. that is very good, in our opinion.
what you should do is make sure that the manufacturing engineers understand how important it is to keep the internal resistance down and consistent, and to keep investing in the best lifepo4 powders and anode coating techniques to maintain high quality, because if they lose control of it then your reputation will be hurt, not because people think the 'linoleum' shields for the cells is unsightly. these blue cells should help shake off the negatives on your reputation from the old brown cells if they work out as hoped.
we are all tinkerers, so adjusting, moving, or rebuilding is more 'fun' than hassle, kinda the distinction of building it yourself. some of us think that the open source BMS that gary and richard designed is the best way to use the cells, others want to have a completed pack with BMS, and some thought the cases was a nobrainer, so when it screws up, there is gonna be that annoyance factor, but the real test will be in 6 months, and then 6 years from now when the cells have gone through their 2,000 charge cycle for those who use their bikes a lot, and the storage capacity is still above 80%. we are expecting that now.
if manufacturing can improve on the cathode powders, or the anode coating to push up the C rates, that is what will gain you more respect, and help keep you on the forefront in EV developments, and put your cells in more and more EV applications.
that's what you should tell your bosses we want from them, manufacturing control and improvements in the electrical capacities. i am a retired manufacturing engineer and actually i have said on the old headway thread that your manufacturing process should assign lot and batch control numbers to the cells to help the manufacturing engineers to create feedback to the manufacturing process from batteries in the field. so tell your bosses to support manufacturing in creating a system to track cells through manufacturing and out into the field, and i wish we could have some sort of data collection effort among users to record the performance over time of the cells, and provide that as a base for your manufacturing group, but very hard to do in reality. BOL,dm
Joshua Goldberg
100 W
Good one dnmun
As for the Group Purchase.
The whole idea behind it was to get 45 to 50 Beta testers in the field in one shot. There is a potential U.S. Distributor watching all this unfold and with any luck he will takeover U.S. Distribution and supply Dealers in 2009. It was not my intention to make a profit and I succeeded in doing that and actually lost money.
Victoria was somewhat confused by my offering the Headway cells without making a profit but it seemed like the only way to get 45 to 50 battery packs in use in one shot. The alternative would be have a Dealer with a big pile of cash to import the cells in Packs and flog them at a healthy profit and then we'd end up with prices like what LifeBatt was charging and we would see a trickle of sales and Headway would have zero $$ incentive to improve.
I chose Headway because they have a History in Manufacturing, a Website and an Overseas Export Manager (Victoria Chen) who is active in the E-Bike Community and she listens.
My hope is Headway will prosper by constantly improving their product and allow us (us being the e-bike community) to cooperatively guide Headway along.
As for Why Headway?
Well there are not all that many Lifepo4 manufacturers out there. There are however hundreds of Distributors who are passing themselves off as Manufacturers and if you ask to visit their Factory they hide and change their company name because they have no Factory. You have no idea what you are buying off Ebay, can be factory rejects, refurbished packs, packs taken from e-scooter volume export sales that fell through and so on. With Headway the Factory is Real, you can visit the Factory, the products are aimed at the North American market and Headway wants to work with us.
So if you had to pick one Chinese Lifepo4 manufacturer to partner with who would you pick?
Headway does not build their own Chargers or Cases but that is likely not a bad thing because it diverts resources away from the more critical task of building batteries. This first order did have a few Boo Boos with Chargers and Cases but as Don (the **insult edit **) Harmon observed---> if all your problems are just Cases and Chargers you are very Lucky.
And for the idiots here who like to Pee on Headway. In 2009/2010 America will be going full tilt into Advanced Battery Chemistries for use in E-Cars, NEVs, E-MC's and Solar and Wind Energy Storage and Headway Lifepo4 will be right up there with Valence and A123 Systems---> Li Ping and his ilk will remain bottom feeders and not be players in these highly profitable fields. So given a choice between supporting a winner or the Bottom Feeders which floats your boat?
P.S. I would not rule out LifeBatt being in the top players for 2009/10 but they are not looking at a return to e-bikes.
As for the Group Purchase.
The whole idea behind it was to get 45 to 50 Beta testers in the field in one shot. There is a potential U.S. Distributor watching all this unfold and with any luck he will takeover U.S. Distribution and supply Dealers in 2009. It was not my intention to make a profit and I succeeded in doing that and actually lost money.
Victoria was somewhat confused by my offering the Headway cells without making a profit but it seemed like the only way to get 45 to 50 battery packs in use in one shot. The alternative would be have a Dealer with a big pile of cash to import the cells in Packs and flog them at a healthy profit and then we'd end up with prices like what LifeBatt was charging and we would see a trickle of sales and Headway would have zero $$ incentive to improve.
I chose Headway because they have a History in Manufacturing, a Website and an Overseas Export Manager (Victoria Chen) who is active in the E-Bike Community and she listens.
My hope is Headway will prosper by constantly improving their product and allow us (us being the e-bike community) to cooperatively guide Headway along.
As for Why Headway?
Well there are not all that many Lifepo4 manufacturers out there. There are however hundreds of Distributors who are passing themselves off as Manufacturers and if you ask to visit their Factory they hide and change their company name because they have no Factory. You have no idea what you are buying off Ebay, can be factory rejects, refurbished packs, packs taken from e-scooter volume export sales that fell through and so on. With Headway the Factory is Real, you can visit the Factory, the products are aimed at the North American market and Headway wants to work with us.
So if you had to pick one Chinese Lifepo4 manufacturer to partner with who would you pick?
Headway does not build their own Chargers or Cases but that is likely not a bad thing because it diverts resources away from the more critical task of building batteries. This first order did have a few Boo Boos with Chargers and Cases but as Don (the **insult edit **) Harmon observed---> if all your problems are just Cases and Chargers you are very Lucky.
And for the idiots here who like to Pee on Headway. In 2009/2010 America will be going full tilt into Advanced Battery Chemistries for use in E-Cars, NEVs, E-MC's and Solar and Wind Energy Storage and Headway Lifepo4 will be right up there with Valence and A123 Systems---> Li Ping and his ilk will remain bottom feeders and not be players in these highly profitable fields. So given a choice between supporting a winner or the Bottom Feeders which floats your boat?
P.S. I would not rule out LifeBatt being in the top players for 2009/10 but they are not looking at a return to e-bikes.
Kurt
10 kW
I am not part of the Group Purchase but I do own a 36v 20ah headway battery.I am happy with the battery and bms performance but i have something to say about the packaging.
When I first opened the box from headway with my new battery and charger I found my battery wrapped up in brown paper and clear packing tap.I thought to myself this cant be the packaging there must be something nicer underneath .I started to cut it off with scissors expecting to find a nicely shrink-wrapped battery pack .To my horror it became evident that the cardboard and sticky tape was it.
I dint take a picture but it was much the same as the group buy packs .
What I find funny is I have seen pictures from people that have ordered single cells from headway and the packaging looksfine. Each cell had its own box with soft foam wrapping and was on par with any western company .
Example ,single cell from headway
The other thing i find funny is that another member of ES has headway packs that were wrapped in thick blue shrink wrap that presented very well .I don't get it they can do it for some packs but others look like they have come out of the trash can.
Example 10ah from headway
Come on Headway we know you can do better and I don't see why you cant just shrink wrap all your pack as you have in the past.This is all it would take to keep a lot of people happy and improve your image.
Kurt.
When I first opened the box from headway with my new battery and charger I found my battery wrapped up in brown paper and clear packing tap.I thought to myself this cant be the packaging there must be something nicer underneath .I started to cut it off with scissors expecting to find a nicely shrink-wrapped battery pack .To my horror it became evident that the cardboard and sticky tape was it.
I dint take a picture but it was much the same as the group buy packs .
What I find funny is I have seen pictures from people that have ordered single cells from headway and the packaging looksfine. Each cell had its own box with soft foam wrapping and was on par with any western company .
Example ,single cell from headway
The other thing i find funny is that another member of ES has headway packs that were wrapped in thick blue shrink wrap that presented very well .I don't get it they can do it for some packs but others look like they have come out of the trash can.
Example 10ah from headway
Come on Headway we know you can do better and I don't see why you cant just shrink wrap all your pack as you have in the past.This is all it would take to keep a lot of people happy and improve your image.
Kurt.
Kurt said:
r u prepared to pay for that?
the ebike crowd is tighter than a con$tipated scotsman.
u want bottom dollar then something gots to go & u get a product pared to min.
Kurt
10 kW
When your paying $1000 for a battery what's a one foot length of shrink wrap worth in china? I would be happy to pay for the shrink wrap. What I find silly was they do a nice job for some packs and shrink wrap them but others get the newspaper and sticky tape.
I had plans to reconfigure my pack anyhow so in the end it wasn't a problem. I think when you see how the battery's were wrapped in person to get an idea just how bad it was.It just gave me the impression that they didn't have much respect for there product.
here is another example a small amount of care and not any more money could go a long way. The BMS is mounted to a thick section of rubbery cardboard .There is a hole in the middle where the heat probe from the BMS sits and makes contact with the battery's.There isn't anything wrong with the rubber/cardboard but it looks like it has been hacked out with a machete and then some one has poked there finger through the middle to make a hole. They could at least cut it out with a straight edge,ruler,strip of timber anything to get it roughly square and perhaps use a small hand punch to make the hole in the middle neat.
I have purchased small imported products for $1 that have more professional packaging. I think headway would come across more professional if they just sent the naked battery pack in a box and didn't bother putting the news paper and sticky tape on there.Even when you buy a 12pack of no name AA battery's for $2 from the markets they come shrink wrapped.
Don't get me wrong I will be buying another headway battery again soon. as I am happy with my first pack. I know we need company's like headway. Consider it more as customer feedback to help them improve there image of there product and sales in the future.
Kurt.
I had plans to reconfigure my pack anyhow so in the end it wasn't a problem. I think when you see how the battery's were wrapped in person to get an idea just how bad it was.It just gave me the impression that they didn't have much respect for there product.
here is another example a small amount of care and not any more money could go a long way. The BMS is mounted to a thick section of rubbery cardboard .There is a hole in the middle where the heat probe from the BMS sits and makes contact with the battery's.There isn't anything wrong with the rubber/cardboard but it looks like it has been hacked out with a machete and then some one has poked there finger through the middle to make a hole. They could at least cut it out with a straight edge,ruler,strip of timber anything to get it roughly square and perhaps use a small hand punch to make the hole in the middle neat.
I have purchased small imported products for $1 that have more professional packaging. I think headway would come across more professional if they just sent the naked battery pack in a box and didn't bother putting the news paper and sticky tape on there.Even when you buy a 12pack of no name AA battery's for $2 from the markets they come shrink wrapped.
Don't get me wrong I will be buying another headway battery again soon. as I am happy with my first pack. I know we need company's like headway. Consider it more as customer feedback to help them improve there image of there product and sales in the future.
Kurt.
ZapPat
10 kW
+1Joshua Goldberg said:
I thought it was to provide the cells/batteries at a lower cost to the community?Joshua Goldberg said:
I thought you chose Headway because your relationship with Don and Michelle fell through... about three times in a row. Nonetheless, I think that going with Headway instead of LB was a better move, for the reasons Joshua states here.Joshua Goldberg said:
And this kind of comment is why we don't get along, you and I! I really hate it when people bash others without good reason, just as you are irritated right now at the people bashing Headway because of their case issues. You then go on to bash Ping who has been a great ressource for the community, and who a reputation for service that is perfect as far as I know. I have seen you do this many times on a few different forums/groups now, and can clearly see that you have a racist tendancy. Back a few months ago when you were still pals with Lifebatt, I remember reading many such posts of yours where you were actively bashing the whole Chinese battery scene, Li Ping included. From the patern I've seen, I think you do this bashing like too many salesmen do when they want to make their own stuff look better. It's not a good idea to do, since it really irritates some people to read such nonsense.Joshua Goldberg said:
Anyways, I wish Headway the best of luck! It's great to see a company that strives to improve it's product and also listens to customer feedback with such interrest and patience... +1 for Victoria!
TylerDurden
100 GW
...Also claiming that LB has pure Phostech lithium: http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=2655&p=37070&#p37070ZapPat said:
A radiologist would confirm this guy is F.O.S.
Joshua Goldberg
100 W
I don't piss on all Chinese battery manufacturers, just the ones I am familiar with which happens to be a good number of them------the ones who have not burned to the ground anyway.
I didn't choose Headway. What happened there was a friend who has been involved with Lifepo4 from the begining was all excited by Headway and very unexcited by LifeBatt and he thought maybe I should offer Headway and LifeBatt at the same time and let people decide which company they wanted to deal with. I wasn't crazy about the idea but then Michelle (LifeBatt) went haywire and shutdown the LifeBatt Purchase and suddenly Headway started to look better. My 2nd choice was A123 Systems and not Headway but China BAK was halting production.
As for my Peeing on Li Ping and the other Ebay vendors. They cater to children with stand up e-Scooters. I cannot imagine anyone seriously thinking a Li Ping Lifepo4 makes sense on an e-bike.
I didn't choose Headway. What happened there was a friend who has been involved with Lifepo4 from the begining was all excited by Headway and very unexcited by LifeBatt and he thought maybe I should offer Headway and LifeBatt at the same time and let people decide which company they wanted to deal with. I wasn't crazy about the idea but then Michelle (LifeBatt) went haywire and shutdown the LifeBatt Purchase and suddenly Headway started to look better. My 2nd choice was A123 Systems and not Headway but China BAK was halting production.
As for my Peeing on Li Ping and the other Ebay vendors. They cater to children with stand up e-Scooters. I cannot imagine anyone seriously thinking a Li Ping Lifepo4 makes sense on an e-bike.
Joshua Goldberg
100 W
Hey Tyler I wondered when you'd appear.
You are correct about LifeBatt and myself claiming that the Cells used only the finest Phostech compound but Don (the ***insult edit***) Harmon had to retract that claim when he discovered PSI had not used the Phostech powder. Seemed like an Honest boo boo considering Michelle (partner of the ***insult edit**) did go to Montreal and did show up in Taiwan with the CEO of Phostech and pretty blue barrels of Phostech powder. One would assume the Phostech powder would be used since the stuff ain't cheap but alas PSI did not bother using it because they had 100,000 Cells gathering Dust to shift before starting a new production run with that Phostech material.
Personally I feel Manufacturers should honor Dr. Goodenough's Patent and it wouldn't hurt to use Phostech powder.
In case you have not been following it, the EU Court ruled recently that Dr. Goodenough's Lifepo4 Patent is invalid (at least in Europe) meaning manufacturers in the EU cannot be sued if they do not use Phostech powder or pay Royalties.
You are correct about LifeBatt and myself claiming that the Cells used only the finest Phostech compound but Don (the ***insult edit***) Harmon had to retract that claim when he discovered PSI had not used the Phostech powder. Seemed like an Honest boo boo considering Michelle (partner of the ***insult edit**) did go to Montreal and did show up in Taiwan with the CEO of Phostech and pretty blue barrels of Phostech powder. One would assume the Phostech powder would be used since the stuff ain't cheap but alas PSI did not bother using it because they had 100,000 Cells gathering Dust to shift before starting a new production run with that Phostech material.
Personally I feel Manufacturers should honor Dr. Goodenough's Patent and it wouldn't hurt to use Phostech powder.
In case you have not been following it, the EU Court ruled recently that Dr. Goodenough's Lifepo4 Patent is invalid (at least in Europe) meaning manufacturers in the EU cannot be sued if they do not use Phostech powder or pay Royalties.
dnmun
1 PW
JG, i think you need to edit that last line.
rather than argue about whether they wrap them right, or shoulda used a special linoleum hole poker, i wanted to make sure she understands that the changes they have made to the formulations for the cathode (or maybe it is changes to the anode) have improved the performance of the cells. from the initial work drbass did, it is obvious that the internal resistance is much lower, and the sag is much lower, though not as small a sag as the a123 cells. this is what i wanted her to tell her bosses we were most interested in.
this was why headway was considered second tier, and since they made progress on it, i wanted her bosses who have to make the money decisions to know that their investment in better manufacturing would be more valuable than more money spent on marketing. which is why i made those comments. i suspect most people will be taking their packs apart soon anyway, but i agree that long term the shrink wrap sleeves look much better.
i don't think it helps for people to be ragging on joshua, since they aren't married to him. he wanted to do something last year, got suckered into the lifebatt hole, and now the batteries finally got here, group buys are the pits, everyone knows it, and maybe the cases will be useful to some, and the others which don't work, could possibly just be sold here on the sales page rather than go back to the mainland. JG or bocabikebob could take some pictures and maybe someone will find a use if they know the dimensions. and who can tell but they may work with the batteries too, like gaston was saying.
rather than argue about whether they wrap them right, or shoulda used a special linoleum hole poker, i wanted to make sure she understands that the changes they have made to the formulations for the cathode (or maybe it is changes to the anode) have improved the performance of the cells. from the initial work drbass did, it is obvious that the internal resistance is much lower, and the sag is much lower, though not as small a sag as the a123 cells. this is what i wanted her to tell her bosses we were most interested in.
this was why headway was considered second tier, and since they made progress on it, i wanted her bosses who have to make the money decisions to know that their investment in better manufacturing would be more valuable than more money spent on marketing. which is why i made those comments. i suspect most people will be taking their packs apart soon anyway, but i agree that long term the shrink wrap sleeves look much better.
i don't think it helps for people to be ragging on joshua, since they aren't married to him. he wanted to do something last year, got suckered into the lifebatt hole, and now the batteries finally got here, group buys are the pits, everyone knows it, and maybe the cases will be useful to some, and the others which don't work, could possibly just be sold here on the sales page rather than go back to the mainland. JG or bocabikebob could take some pictures and maybe someone will find a use if they know the dimensions. and who can tell but they may work with the batteries too, like gaston was saying.
TylerDurden
100 GW
Perhaps more of the group-purchase participants will be kind enough to provide some satisfaction data...
Scale:
A) Organization
B) Communication
C) Documentation
D) Delivery Time
E) Packaging
F) Construction
G) Performance
H) Price
I) Support
Survey participants should be only group-buy participants, please. Naturally, the price, performance and support opinions may shift over time; participants should repost their updates as new replies, since edits do not bump the thread.
Additional comments by participants and kibbutzers are welcome.
Scale:
- 1= very unsatisfied
2= somewhat unsatisfied
3= meh...
4= satisfied
5= very satisfied
A) Organization
B) Communication
C) Documentation
D) Delivery Time
E) Packaging
F) Construction
G) Performance
H) Price
I) Support
Survey participants should be only group-buy participants, please. Naturally, the price, performance and support opinions may shift over time; participants should repost their updates as new replies, since edits do not bump the thread.
Additional comments by participants and kibbutzers are welcome.
TylerDurden
100 GW
He wrote it, he should live with it.Goldbrick said:
ZapPat
10 kW
Well that's kicking dirt in many people's faces. I thought that legal ebikes are limited to about 250-500W or so depending on where you live, which I know even a small Li Ping batteriy can easily dish out at 2C. Ping may not have a super high-end product, but his service is impeccable, his communications very good and his batteries have helped many people here get their ebikes on the road. BTW, Ping's cells have an internal resistance of about 14 mOhms equivalent per 10Ah, compared to about 16mOhms per 10Ah for the original old Headway cells, which are what you were looking to perchase at the time the group took on Headway as a supplier. And I'm quite sure Ping's batteries are also a fair amount lighter and less bulky for the same capacity (would like to know how much someone's 48V 20Ah Headway pack weighs and it's size?)Joshua Goldberg said:
My point is, Joshua, that there is no need to start bashing good vendors for no reason whatsoever, I thought you might understand this at least. Unless you have a real reason to bash Ping, I think you should retract your emotionnal comments about him at least.
Good day.
mi7d1
100 W
TylerDurden said:
Scale:
- 1= very unsatisfied
2= somewhat unsatisfied
3= meh...
4= satisfied
5= very satisfied
A) Organization
5 looking back at the various stumbling blocks I have to give Joshua a 5 for organizing the group purchase. Were I in his place I would have given up months ago. Joshua perused and I have some LiFe batteries now because of his work.
B) Communication
2 Communication could have been better with all parties. I original answered this with a 3 but as I wrote it could have been better all around. Was this a deal breaker? No, it was a learning experience for all of us I hope. At least it was for me.
C) Documentation
? not sure of the intention here. There was a lot of documentation posted on both the group purchase site and here on ES about the performance of Headway cells.
D) Delivery Time
This is another hard one for me to answer as there were two delivery steps. Yes, it took quite awhile looking at the big picture but there were several things that held up the process. My biggest gripe was the members of the group purchase that didn't have their money ready to pay and held up the shipping by two or more weeks. Shipping the packs by freighter takes a bit of time. That is why when I purchased my velomobile I decided to pay $800.00 extra to have it flown in from Europe rather than arrive by container vessel. I give a 5 to USPS Priority mail who shipped 40 lbs of batteries to me in three days from the east coast.
E) Packaging
5 I was very satisfied on how the battery packs were packed for shipping to save money. Thanks USPS for the flat rate box prices.
3 for the battery themselves. Sure the wrapping around the packs was a surprise but would I have know or cared if they were in a case. I've ordered and purchased many items that arrive wrapped in paper. The current wrapping is not the end for me. A concern of mine has always been the battery format size. With LifeBat I wouldn't have been able to remove the cells and reformat them. With Headway I knew I could reformat the pack size if needed. Therefore the outer wrapping and appearance is only of little concern to me.
F) Construction
I can't answer now
G) Performance
From what I've seen and understand I'm very much looking forward to the performance of the Headway packs. The various charts and graphs have shown an improvement of quality on the cells. However till I've used them I can't answer the question
H) Price
4? How do I judge the price. At the time of it may have been a good price. I'm not sure of the current price of 36V 20Ah pack that can equal the performance of the Headway cell is going for. I do know that there are more and least expensive options. I'm have no regrets about what I paid.
I) Support
Overall I'd have to give a 4+ on this. Victoria, the members of the group purchase and even here on ES all have great support and information on the cells performance.
In closing it is my feeling that Headway cell or packs are not the only answer for e-bikes. Headway is but one of the manufacture or resellers who can provide what we individually need or can afford. From looking at the discharge graphs I believe that Headway was the best choice financially for what my needs are. Looking back at my answers to the survey I would venture to guess that the average is around a 4. As time marches on and I can answer the remaining questions that average may change.
Joshua Goldberg
100 W
the one thing more than anything that slowed it all down was 45 people making 50 changes to their initial orders. It was driving Victoria up the wall. No names but an example was one chap ordered 3 packs of 48V X 20Ah, changed to 5 packs, then to 5 of the 48V X 10Ah and then down to 5 of the 36V X 10Ah and finally down to 3 of the 36V X 10Ah. Several people dropped out and then reappeared. Was like Herding cats.
My only incentive was Tyler wrote here if this is non-profit then I am Angelina Jolie and well Tyler I guess we start calling you Angelina from now on.
To the person who was defending Li Ping and saying e-bike motors are supposed to be 250W to 500W. Well my Crystalyte hub motor is 4.2 HP. You take a motor rated at 500W and you is Legal. When you add a 40A Controller with 48V Battery you now have 1,920W and a Li Ping pack is not going to cut it. Even a 36V X 20A Controller is 720W. A Li Ping pack rated for 500W would work on a 36V X 15A Controller but who has one that small not on a kiddies Scooter?
My only incentive was Tyler wrote here if this is non-profit then I am Angelina Jolie and well Tyler I guess we start calling you Angelina from now on.
To the person who was defending Li Ping and saying e-bike motors are supposed to be 250W to 500W. Well my Crystalyte hub motor is 4.2 HP. You take a motor rated at 500W and you is Legal. When you add a 40A Controller with 48V Battery you now have 1,920W and a Li Ping pack is not going to cut it. Even a 36V X 20A Controller is 720W. A Li Ping pack rated for 500W would work on a 36V X 15A Controller but who has one that small not on a kiddies Scooter?
mi7d1
100 W
Joshua Goldberg said:
Guilty, I did also change my order
. No doubt about the herding cats part. Still on a whole as things stand and are known now, I'm very pleased. Like I said, without the group purchase I wouldn't have the batteries I wanted.Edited for clarity because Dennis asked me about this posting. I wasn't the one who changed the quantity order as Joshua mentioned above. I switched my order from (2) 36V to (2) 48V packs. After all was said and done I ended up with (2) 36V packs.
ZapPat
10 kW
I have a 48V 20Ah Ping, version 2, which is rated at 2C continous, which yields 1,920Watts continous for one half an hour, just exactly as in your high power example. This is not for everyone, but for longer commutes (around 1/2 hour) a Ping is often satisfactory. Are you trying to be humorous or something with such excuses for your bashing? BTW, I'm not "defending" Ping so much as stating the technical facts as they are, not as you are putting them. You understood my talk about the internal resistance of the cells too, and understand what this means I hope?Joshua Goldberg said:
MidniteTweeker
100 W
- Joined
- May 16, 2008
- Messages
- 121
Unless Joshua is planning to do another group purchase, I don't know exactly what purpose the survey serves.
But having said that, if the intent is to do a survey, part of the information collected ought to be the relative importance of the characteristic being rated, or what the initial expectation was.
Personally, my expectations were minimal: I hoped to eventually get a decent battery/BMS/charger system sometime. No particular timetable. If things went well, perhaps the battery quality would exceed expectations. I hoped that, at worst, the quality would be average. No illusions that it would be a quick, painless, antiseptic process like a quick trip to the corner hardware store. A hefty dose of DIY was expected. I mean, what on an e-bike is anything but DIY? Also understood was that a certain element of risk was involved. I assumed nothing; took nothing for granted; no guarantees. Didn't expect a bubble pack, an instruction manual, or machine-like consistency.
Frankly, my biggest frustration so far was the up front delays caused by people trying to get in on the deal after the cutoff date, or when they tried to order a battery pack custom configured for their exact need instead of sticking with one of the standard configurations offered. Joshua always tried to be accommodating, and I'm not sure how much that contributed to the delay.
I may be mistaken, but I think quite a few people jumped on board with the assumption that the group buy was a lot more cut and dried than it really was. My hunch is that these are the ones who are most likely to be unhappy with the process. If your expectations were more modest, you may be quite satisfied.
MT
But having said that, if the intent is to do a survey, part of the information collected ought to be the relative importance of the characteristic being rated, or what the initial expectation was.
Personally, my expectations were minimal: I hoped to eventually get a decent battery/BMS/charger system sometime. No particular timetable. If things went well, perhaps the battery quality would exceed expectations. I hoped that, at worst, the quality would be average. No illusions that it would be a quick, painless, antiseptic process like a quick trip to the corner hardware store. A hefty dose of DIY was expected. I mean, what on an e-bike is anything but DIY? Also understood was that a certain element of risk was involved. I assumed nothing; took nothing for granted; no guarantees. Didn't expect a bubble pack, an instruction manual, or machine-like consistency.
Frankly, my biggest frustration so far was the up front delays caused by people trying to get in on the deal after the cutoff date, or when they tried to order a battery pack custom configured for their exact need instead of sticking with one of the standard configurations offered. Joshua always tried to be accommodating, and I'm not sure how much that contributed to the delay.
I may be mistaken, but I think quite a few people jumped on board with the assumption that the group buy was a lot more cut and dried than it really was. My hunch is that these are the ones who are most likely to be unhappy with the process. If your expectations were more modest, you may be quite satisfied.
MT
Joshua Goldberg
100 W
well had people stayed with LifeBatt they would have got just the Raw Cells and Nuthin else. They would need to get a BMS from Gary Goodrum, build their own case, add their own cell post interconnect strips and source a Charger.
Originally Headway was all about just Raw Cells just like LifeBatt but then people asked if Headway could supply the BMS and maybe cases and it went out from there.
I don't think Headway knew what hit it because up till this point the only complete packs they made were for their line of underpowered e-bikes.
As for will there be a second Group Purchase, in a sense Yes but it is going to Canada and now that Headway has built up an inventory the wait time will be shorter---> a lot shorter.
Originally Headway was all about just Raw Cells just like LifeBatt but then people asked if Headway could supply the BMS and maybe cases and it went out from there.
I don't think Headway knew what hit it because up till this point the only complete packs they made were for their line of underpowered e-bikes.
As for will there be a second Group Purchase, in a sense Yes but it is going to Canada and now that Headway has built up an inventory the wait time will be shorter---> a lot shorter.
dnmun
1 PW
i haven't read that anyone was disappointed. dr bass just finished the yesa test, 5 mohm IR, i wonder how much those cost with air freight?
it would be helpful overall for every body to keep a log of how they treat the battery they have. maybe keep estimates or records of the degree of discharge over the first 2-3 dozen cycles. also record charged voltage, some kinda summary of how the power was used in each discharge cycle, keep track of low voltage during cycle, just a simple format to contain data which can be easily collected before you shut off the CA or watts up. maybe if someone has a regular commute cycle that will create some kinda baseline that other deviations in output or duty cycle will be kept as the modifier of the actual data to try to tease out the theory about the initial charging cycles. supposedly the cells should be allowed to discharge only partly for the initial 30 or so cycles, we know about the impact of low voltage but not sure if close to low also has impact on the life expectancy. is there a way to record it on the cellphone? then log it later?
it will take years, but eventually somebody can crunch the info to try to tease out the truth, something that can be done with a homogeneous group to begin with. and enuff data set to be significant too.
we could start a thread with just the data and no yakking, then whenever somebody wanted to update their data set, they could go edit the individual post about their battery, just adding the new numbers under the old, whenever, something like a wiki, but the only person who could enter data would be the battery owner, who control the editing of that post, along with the moderator or richard.
then that thread would be relatively small and we could always know where a particular battery was in the list.
maybe we can create a standardized sorta internal resistance measurement that people could do while riding, just record voltage and load at one point and then change the load to get a different current and use the 2 to keep track of the IR during each cycle. but that would be for people to just figure out as they do it, but that would be useful data to collect too, imho.
anyway, lets move on.
it would be helpful overall for every body to keep a log of how they treat the battery they have. maybe keep estimates or records of the degree of discharge over the first 2-3 dozen cycles. also record charged voltage, some kinda summary of how the power was used in each discharge cycle, keep track of low voltage during cycle, just a simple format to contain data which can be easily collected before you shut off the CA or watts up. maybe if someone has a regular commute cycle that will create some kinda baseline that other deviations in output or duty cycle will be kept as the modifier of the actual data to try to tease out the theory about the initial charging cycles. supposedly the cells should be allowed to discharge only partly for the initial 30 or so cycles, we know about the impact of low voltage but not sure if close to low also has impact on the life expectancy. is there a way to record it on the cellphone? then log it later?
it will take years, but eventually somebody can crunch the info to try to tease out the truth, something that can be done with a homogeneous group to begin with. and enuff data set to be significant too.
we could start a thread with just the data and no yakking, then whenever somebody wanted to update their data set, they could go edit the individual post about their battery, just adding the new numbers under the old, whenever, something like a wiki, but the only person who could enter data would be the battery owner, who control the editing of that post, along with the moderator or richard.
then that thread would be relatively small and we could always know where a particular battery was in the list.
maybe we can create a standardized sorta internal resistance measurement that people could do while riding, just record voltage and load at one point and then change the load to get a different current and use the 2 to keep track of the IR during each cycle. but that would be for people to just figure out as they do it, but that would be useful data to collect too, imho.
anyway, lets move on.
TylerDurden
100 GW
dnmun said:
mi7d1 said:
Eric (alysion.org) said:
dnmun
1 PW
bill bates brought his pack over and we cut the cover off. the cells are sequentially numbered with zebra tape (bar code) which you can see in this picture, the output fets are IRFB3207, 75V, 4.1 mohm each so about 1mohm for the 4 in parallel, hot glued together in 4 packs and assembled in the paper wrap. these cells are huge. victoria, my name is dennis munsterman.
