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Help in making my BLDC controller

Ludo91

100 W
Joined
Feb 14, 2011
Messages
123
Location
Milan, Italy
Hi guys!
I`ll be honest, I made a BLDc controller to be used with rc brushless motors and I failed. Lots of smoke :lol: :lol:

Never surrend!!! :)

I investigated all my mistakes for days and learned a lot from my failure, still, I have a few questions for ya fellas!

Number one! Mosfet Choosing.
In my first attemp i used LOGIC LEVEL GATE mosfets (and they were working lovely)... but... do I need them? I mean, can a microcontroller (Atmega 8) drive mosfet that have "normal" gates, not logic level which are pretty hard to find here in italy? I am missing something on this point.

tnks!!

(number 3 4 5 6 N ecc will come soon :mrgreen: )
 
I applaud your efforts, but it sounds like you're starting a little bit over your head. You're definitely on the right track by asking questions, though, and I'd suggest doing lots of reading too. There are some good references you can find online to teach you more of the basics, then you can come back and ask questions about the details. There are many very knowledgeable and patient people on here, but you'll find it tough going to try and ask enough questions to learn everything this way. I think you'll find it much easier and you'll learn a lot more if you can learn a lot of the basics on your own, then you can narrow down your questions do some of the specific details. I think you'll also find that a lot of questions have been asked already, and a little time spent using the search functions will help you mine some very informative threads. I feel like I should warn you that only a relative handful of the most knowledgeable members on here have successfully built their own controllers from scratch, but don't let that keep you from trying!

First off, you don't provide any details about your controller design. What sort of specifications are you trying to achieve? Battery voltage, peak current, max power, type of motor, etc. What MOSFETs are you trying to use? Sensored or sensorless? Any and all details will help us understand what you want to accomplish.

It sounds like you've been using logic-level MOSFETs driven directly from the Atmega processor. There are many things wrong with this approach. :) But, your ignorance is understandable because this is a VERY complicated topic. You probably destroyed your FETs because they were switching far too slowly. A MOSFET gate looks like a capacitor, which must be charged to a certain voltage (the threshold voltage) to turn the FET on. FET driver circuits are designed to deliver short pulses of fairly high current (up to several amps) to rapidly charge this capacitor and switch the FET on and off. Your Atmel can probably only deliver 10 or 20 mA, which would probably require upwards of 7 us to switch on the gate of a typical high-power FET (IRF4110). For reference, the relatively crappy gate drive circuits of the cheap Chinese controllers manage 1-2 us. The problem with high switching times is that the FET is generating a LOT of heat while its switching, so long switching times will dramatically increase the amount of heat generated. The logic-level FETs also have another problem, which is called dv/dt-induced turn-on. That's a pretty complicated issue, but the logic-level FETs are more vulnerable than other types. This could also cause blown FETs. In general, unless you really know what you're doing, logic-level FETs are only really useful for low-power circuits.

I suggest you do a lot of reading on gate drive circuit design. Here is a really good reference:
http://focus.ti.com/lit/ml/slup169/slup169.pdf
You can also find a lot of good info in the application notes from IRF and other companies that make gate drive ICs (National Semi, Linear, TI, among others). Most of these references are pretty technical, but you'll find Wikipedia and other resources useful to understand them if necessary. Do some reading and then come back with questions.
 
+ - I don't see a reference to this above.... the upper transistors need an isolated gate drive. drirect drive is certain to smoke the whole caboodle....
 
The MOSFET gate must be driven high (usually +12V or +15V) relative to the source pin of the MOSFET. For the low-side MOSFETs, the source pin is connected to the battery ground, so +12V relative to the source is +12V relative to ground (ignoring for the moment the variety of small effects), no special arrangements are required. For the high-side MOSFETs, however, the source pin is connected to the motor phase wires. When that MOSFET is on, the motor phase will ideally be at approximately the battery voltage, when the MOSFET is off it will be at ground (or close to it). This requires that the gate be driven to a voltage 12V above the battery voltage to turn the FET on. Therefore the high-side driver must be able to supply this voltage, which is usually done through a technique called bootstrapping but occasionally a dedicated, isolated power supply is used instead. Since each of the 3 phases are switching separately, each high-side driver requires a separate supply. The driver and its power supply must be isolated because they are following the MOSFET source pin as it switches from battery voltage to ground. Some driver chips have this isolation built in, in other cases an external device like an optocoupler is used.

The actual gate drive circuit itself is no different for high-side or low-side drive. it's the isolation and power supply requirements that make the two distinct. Most people who design controllers will choose to use either 3 half-bridge driver chips or one 3-phase driver chip, which pair the gate drivers together with isolation, power supply, and sometimes other features. IRF, Linear Technology, National Semi, and a variety of other companies make such chips.
 
Hey guys, Im still doing my homework :)

Bout mosfet drivers : The one used in the turnigy 190 A esc has a typical on off time of about 160 nanoseconds. SInce I want to "make it easy" i want trough hole mount components, only problem is that i cant find components with identical on off time. One is 52 ns and the other is 62. Is this acceptable or not?

tnks guys :wink:
 
Ludo91 said:
Bout mosfet drivers : The one used in the turnigy 190 A esc has a typical on off time of about 160 nanoseconds. SInce I want to "make it easy" i want trough hole mount components, only problem is that i cant find components with identical on off time. One is 52 ns and the other is 62. Is this acceptable or not?

The datasheet on/off time specifications for driver chips are somewhere between highly optimistic and completely imaginary. Which is to say, they don't matter. The important spec for judging how fast a driver is capable of operating is the peak current. The peak current combined with the MOSFET gate charge will let you estimate the minimum possible on/off time. The pull-up/-down impedance is also somewhat important, but is strongly correlated to the peak current so it's not usually a headline spec.

That said, you will never achieve on/off times anywhere close to the theoretical minimum. Unless you really know what you are doing and are extremely careful, you'll need to add a series resistor to significantly increase the on/off time to avoid causing other problems. We're talking probably the vicinity of 500 ns to 1 us. Most FET drivers fall in the 2-3A range, which should be perfectly fine for your purposes unless you're doing something really exotic.
 
As said, you will typically want to switch the FETs in a little less than 1 uS. This timing is done with the gate resistor. ALL FET H bridge designs require a gate resistor to supress oscillation and time the event. Typical values are 10 ohms; and they range for 3.3 ish to 22 ohms typically. Take a look at International Rectifier FET drivers IR2113S or IR2110 to get you started. It is a half bridge chip. That means it will drive one high side and one low side FET per chip. Or one chip per each of 3 phases. Think about IRFB4110 FETs or IRFP3077 FETs for your bridge. Download and read all the IR app notes that you have time for.

You will have to decide the type and location of your current sense technology. Non inductive sense resistor with op amp, hall current sensor with integrated amp, Yokogawa Sensor, etc. You might want to start with the first one, and move up as your complexity requires.

A big factor in successful design is the location and type of link capacitor. That is the cap that goes across the "rails" or + supply and - supply. It wants to be as close to the top FET drain and lower FET source in the leg or "phase" as possible. There are threads on this capacitor selection here on ES. You basically want to go with the lowest ESR (Equivalent Series Resistance) cap you can find, afford and place physically in your design.

Enjoy the development journey! It is full of twists and turns, but exceedingly educational and challenging. Don't give up! With each design that incinerated, you are getting closer to the holy grail.
 
-Hi my friends, my name is Ludo and it`s 3 days that I`m not thinking to my BLDC controller.
-bad Ludo, you should think to it more often
:lol: I`m starting to consider this forum something like a support group for electrons-addicted people who do not want to get rid of their addictions :mrgreen:

Anyway, I think i may found hte mosfets I need in my application (30 volts 250A min. controller)! :D

I want to make it 12FET (2 per each one of the 6 "connections") and I am in doubt with these 2 mosfets:

-this beast, that looks almost too-good-to-be-real http://www.irf.com/product-info/datasheets/data/irfp3206pbf.pdf

-this one, wich seems pretty good too http://docs-europe.electrocomponents.com/webdocs/0b3c/0900766b80b3c0b9.pdf

(there is also a way cheaper version of the second one, but with 220ns rise time instead of 110, would that seriously affect performances?)

Can one of these two be the right choiche?
Thankyou very much :wink:
 
Ludo you are doing well! Of your two choices I would pick IRFP3206. Here is the reason. You say 30 volts; but there is no real advantage to design to such a low voltage unless you are only going to use 24 volts ever! If you are eBiking, if you start at 24 you will go to 36, then likely go to 48. Above that you have entered the level of our PlasmaKings!

I would recommend taht you consider the IRFP3077, see my short list jpg below. It has 75 volt Vdss, similar characteristics to the IRFP3206, and is cheaper. The green blocks in the chart only means the ones I have in stock.
 
I would concur with your choice. Attached is my spreadsheet on FET drivers. I personally use the IR2113S, but I always roll my own emitter follower after to match drive requirements. The 2 amp drive of the IR3113S is light for direct applications. Therefore the IRS2186/IRS21864 are good choices. As you can see in some of my selections price point is one of the optimization variables, not terribly relevant for a one off design.
 
bigmoose said:
I would concur with your choice. Attached is my spreadsheet on FET drivers. I personally use the IR2113S, but I always roll my own emitter follower after to match drive requirements. The 2 amp drive of the IR3113S is light for direct applications. Therefore the IRS2186/IRS21864 are good choices. As you can see in some of my selections price point is one of the optimization variables, not terribly relevant for a one off design.

thankyou very much! But we have a little of "language barrier" here :lol: What is the meaning of the expression I highlighted in the quoted message? tnks :D
 
No problem, sorry for the US slang.

Roll my own = design it myself to add to the basic IC's functionality

light = low, not enough, weak in this context

An emitter follower is a circuit arrangement of NPN and PNP transistors to amplify the current capability of the driver chip. Good primer here http://www.diodes.com/zetex/_pdfs/3.0/appnotes/apps/an18.pdf You do not need that additional complexity for the controller you are building.

By light, I meant that the 2 amp drive capability of the IR3113S is too low for directly driving multiple FETs; but the 4 amp capability of the IRS2186/IRS21864 is likely sufficient for one or two TO-247 FETs.

Your doing well with your parts selection!
 
Got it!
Don`t worry about the slang, I may be throwing some west coast slang in my posts since i have been a CA resident for one year (good times) :lol:

Now that I have good components to work with I`ll do all the proper maths and be back with a schematic to see if I forgot something or I can order the components from the supplier!

Tnks again for your help! :wink:
 
Midterm exams are gone so I can get wild on my bldc controller (yeeeeeeeeeee! :lol: )

things in the pre-order from my supplier or that i already have at home :
12mosfets (choosen b4 in this 3d)
3 mosfet drivers (choosen b4 in this 3d)
appropriate capacitors
Arduino with some hall sensor to handle the commutation pattern
a lot of resistor (to be used as current limiting, pull down, pull up etc.)
all the capacitors indicated in the mosfet drivers datasheet




Some important questions:

- the drivers datasheets says i can supply them a voltage up to 20v, like the very most of mosfet drivers.
This is not related with the maximum voltage across the mosfets, right? I mean, if i provide 18v to my drivers it is ok if my bldc controller is handling 50volts, right>

-seems to me that, excepts from power supply, mosfet drivers are required no external components, is it right? In the datasheets they say to refer to design tips datasheet or something similar but i cannot find it anywere! do you know where to get it?


Many thanks! :D
 
Correct, the supply voltage is the supply for the driver, called Vcc on the IR datasheets; not the "rail" voltage for the motor, called Vb, high side floating rail on the datasheet. Usually I supply 12 or 15 volts max for the driver. You will have to design your power supply/regulator to supply this voltage from the battery. It won't need much current, say 100 mA max.

Typically the drivers need no external components except:
1) a resistor for each FET gate, start with 10 ohms
2) a boot strap diode and capacitor to generate the 12 or 15 volts above the motor supply rail to turn on the upper FET. Google bootstrap driver circuit FET to get some hits that will explain how it works.

Google for International Rectifier IR App Note AN-978.pdf HV Floating MOS-Gate Driver ICs it will explain bootstrap stuff, gate resistor, and general interfacing with IR FET drivers. It is a good place to start.

There is a bit more to take you a little farther on your journey!
 
Hi! mosfets, drivers and power supplies are on their way :D

Still, I am having trouble in determining the external boot strap diode and capacitor for the drivers. There are no hints about these components in the datasheet.
I`ll try to determine them from the application note, which is very intresting but a little too complicate for me.

Can a wrong diode/caps selection lead to damages to the components? or just a non working thing?

Thankyou,
Ludovico
 
Use a diode rated at 1 amp (something like a MUR115/MUR120/US1D-E3/61T), and a 1 uF to 4.7 uF cap for the bootstrap and you will likely be fine for your first cut.
 
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