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Lafinn

100 µW
Joined
Mar 12, 2014
Messages
7
Location
Norway
Hello
I’m new here.
I have dreamed of bicycling to work daily, for many years now, but because of the distance and many hills that are on the way I haven’t realized the dream yet, well and I’m getting older and fatter ;) .
But in the weekends I have been bicycling in the forest.
The distance one way is 36km.
And this is the elevation: attachment

Im was hoping that I could install some electric kit on one of my bicycles to use to work?
I have to bicycle’s:
1. Giant anthem x3
Anthem-X3-Black_Silver.jpg
]
Features
- Light and stiff Fox F100RL 100mm suspension fork and Fox Float RP2 rear shock
- Shimano Deore shifting/brakeset with Race Face Ride XC crankset
- Race Face Ride XC handlebar, seatpost and stem
- Mavic XM 117 rim/sealed-bearing hubs, wheelset
2. Nacamura Fatbike
images

Chassi Trippelbuttet Aluminium size 19” Fork Aluminium Krank Samox Utveksling 22/36 Girhendler Shimano Alivio Navgir Shimano DeoreKrankgir Shimano SLX Bremser Tektro HDC-330 Felg/nav C4 103mm felger og Shimano Deore/C4 nav

Which of the bicycle would you recommend to motorizes and what type system (motor and battery) do you recommend?
I’m a big man so I probably need more then 250W to move me around.
 
Others may disagree, but that distance with that much grade changes is bordering on very difficult to do with normal ebikes.

Not so much the motors can't do the distance or the hills, but more like it's going to take more battery than carries real easy.

EM3ev is a good starting point to look at some batteries that are easier to carry a big one. Look also at Grin Cyclery for their simulator. It will help you get a grip on how much battery you will need. I can't just look at that route profile, and say "you will need a xxxx battery." I can safely say, that including a proper reserve, a 48v 15 ah battery will be too small. You might carry as much as possible in a triangle bag, then add more on a rear rack, keeping the weight on the rack well under 10 pounds.

The other option would be a cargo bike, or maybe carry some in a handlebar mount bag.

The giant bike would be close to ideal. To me anyway. To use the fat bike, you'd have to do a custom wheel build to use a hubmotor.

Just how steep, in % grade are those hills? Even if not so steep, it looks like a lot of vertical feet of climb will add up. We like to look at ebike range in terms of watthours per mile. ( or wh/km) My normal 25-30 wh/mi can balloon to 50-60 if the grades are steep. The steeper it is, the less efficient a hubmotor can be.
 
That could be for the best, efficiency wise. But you never quite get back on the downhill, all the energy used on the uphill.

Primarily, it will remain a how to carry the big battery problem. Ideally, you need the highest density battery you can get, to cram a lot into the bikes triangle area. Or a cargo bike that can carry a large lifepo4.
 
Hello again and thanks for the answer.

I have tried to recalculate the road to work and got more info about that. See the attachment.

I was thinking that the battery could be recharged at work for 8 hours and then it would be enough to get me home.

I was hoping that the trip to work wouldn't take longer then 1,5 hours. That would mean that the speed needed to be around 30 to 40 km h.

I was hoping 48 V 20 Ah battery would be enough.

I don't know what kind of motor would be the best and what solution, hub motor or crank drive motor.

With regards
 

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Haha. That got me as well, until I looked at

"I have dreamed of bicycling to work daily, for many years now, but because of the distends"

He's probably using something like Dragon Dictate, or another speech to text converter ;)

Back on topic though, are you guys assuming that he's not going to pedal? If he's pedalling with zero power on the weekend, he's probably reasonably fit.

Also, if that elevation graph is over 36km, it doesn't look massively steep to me. I think if it were totally flat, 15Ah would be plenty with minimal pedalling, and so 20Ah might be enough if the hills aren't that steep with fit guy pedalling. 10Ah in the frame, 10Ah in the rack, and you're good.

I could be a little optimistic though. I'm a fair bit lighter, and gone to some efforts to make my bike more efficient, so your mileage may vary.
 
I'm sure that if flat, he'd have no problems.

Ok, now I see you have some significant amounts of grade closer to 10% than 7%. To me, this means that if you choose a hubmotor, you would have better results with a slower winding type motor.

It doesn't have to be super slow, but slower than the typical 36v rpm of 350 or so for hubmotors. Or, like said above, some type of motor that drives the bike chain would allow efficient low gear climbing.

Your ride will go with the lower speed hubmotors just fine though, particularly if you run it at 48v. EM3ev is a good reliable source of slower motors. Either the 10t mac, or the slower version of the muxus will do those hills with ease, on a 48v battery.

As to the battery, my experience, including moderate pedaling, you would not get that range from 48v 15 ah unless you took it pretty slow. On the flat, you'd have 22 miles of range at 40 kph. Drop speed to 30 kph, and you would have 50k range on the flat. If you pedal very hard on the hills, you might be able to do the distance. But I suspect that you would have a very small reserve left.

In any case, steep or flat, your commute is definitely on the long side, and a bit more difficult to do than 20k. It's 22 miles, and 20 miles is longer than most I have read of who commute by ebike daily. Before I retired, I did a 15 mile commute daily with few problems. It took me 50 min to work downhill, and uphill all the way 70 min to get home. The uphill return home took most of the capacity of my 48v 15 ah battery every day. With a headwind, I would run out a mile from home.

Early in my commuting, I had a poor motor that would melt if I rode home all 15 miles. So I put the bike on a rack, and drove 5 miles. Then I'd park and ride the last 10 miles. Perhaps something like that could work for you? Less driving is still saving money. In my case, every time I rode the bike it put 12 dollars in my pocket. I'd then spend 20 on more ebike stuff, but at least I was paying for some of it with the savings. That spending was for fun bikes, dirt riding, 50 mph ebikes, etc. The commuter generally just needed tires and brake pads.

It's like this, just because you can make the distance once, does not mean you will make that same distance daily for years. Your battery will lose some capacity in time. So I think you will need close to 48v 20ah to make it a reliable commute. You will of course coast down the hills, but it will simply cost you a lot of wh to get up the hills. It might work to get a 48v 15 ah battery to start with, but then carry a small high power reserve pack. This reserve pack could be a 12cell 5 ah RC toy battery. You could then ride most of the way on the main pack, and only use the reserve if you had to.
 
Lafinn said:
Hi and thanks again for the info

I'm not willing to give up so easily. I have been looking at GNG 60V/650W kit and 60V 10Ah or 60V 15Ah. What do you think about that solution?

http://www.gngebike.com/60v650w-brushless

P.S I'm sorry about my writing.

With regards
Olafur David
Click to expand...

That's probably overkill for what you want. You have to think about whether you want a bicycle or a moped. A 50cc gas moped will be a lot cheaper, more comfortable and faster. Why do you want electric?

A 250w motor would make 10% hills easy to pedal up, but if you want 40km/hr, you need a minimum of 500w. The Bafang BBS01 or 02 should be OK, and a lot better than the GNG, which is not really suitable for long-distance commuting. A 500w geared motor would also be good. I commuted 50km each day for a year on a bike with a 270 rpm Bafang BPM motor and then a 270 rpm Bafang CST. They give speeds up to about 36km/hr (real speed on the road), and they have enough torque to climb very steep hills. I used about 12aH per day (36v) at an average speed of about 29km/hr. There was a 5km 5% climb on the return journey and a few more not too steep hills.

A bike like that with a 500w motor and 20aH 36v battery is still like a bicycle and it's not too heavy. When you want to go faster, you need a bigger and heavier motor and battery, which means that it's not easy to pedal without power and you can't pedal fast enough, so a moped becomes a better solution. Don't forget that in Europe the legal limit is a 250w motor. Where are you?
 
d8veh said:
Don't forget that in Europe the legal limit is a 250w motor. Where are you?
Click to expand...

He's in Norway. I Googled the area of the map he posted above. Man that looks like a gorgeous place to ride on a holiday. Not sure I'd want to do it through the snow just for work though!
 
I'm sure the GNG will get up the hills, as would a slower than normal hubmotor like a Mac 10t. But nothing is going to make that an easy ride. The main problem remains how to properly carry about 1000wh of battery. I just think it will be very tight on an easier to carry 15 ah, about 750 wh.

I'm not calling this commute impossible at all, but it definitely is harder than the typical 20k one way, with perhaps 150 m of total hill climb.
 
Thank you guys for the comments

I know that the limits her i Norway is 250 W, but I am afraid that it wont be enough to move me around.
I have been checking if I can take the bike on the train, that could shorten the way down to 20 km.

What motor would you recommend for the task and what battery would you advise me to use?`

I'm a electrician and have been working with super capacitors. Is it possible to use super capacitors for the regen part. It is much quicker to recharge than battery.

Has anyone some experience of Lithium Iron Magnesium Phosphate battery http://www.valence.com/?

With regards
Lafinn
 
36km in 1.5 hours is only an average speed of 15mph, my Bomber would average 20w per mile at this speed with only very gentle assistance so I don't see why a geared BMC or Mac motor in a much lighter bike with fast rolling tyres would not get you there and back with careful riding from a 48v 20ah pack, the geared motor will coast better down hills which is probably worth more than the possibility of regen from a DD hubby and would climb more efficiently, of course a top up at work would be a good idea idea, an even better idea would be a full charge at work and a top up at home! :)
 
Super capacitors are cool, but to be useful you'd need a huge bank. It's also difficult to deal with the wide voltage range needed to use them.

The Li-Mn batteries have been around a long time and have a good track record for medium rate discharge. I think the Makita tool packs use them as well as many e-bike conversion kits.
 
Hey Lafinn!

Welcome to ES 1.jpg

Step 2, what is your budget?

Distance is not a problem. From my quick look at google earth, it looks like you only need to go about 5 miles ether way before you start going mostly down hill, but we need to know just how hard some of the climbs are to recommend the right equipment for the job. Heavy hill climbing is hard on small motors.

I took a quick look at google earth and see that you have an average of about 2% of elevation climb on your up hill rides. But that does not detail the large percentage grades on the individual sections of your rides. It would be helpful for us to know what your ride is really like. What are the 3 biggest incline road percentages on each side of the highest peak of our ride. Break your ride down to 6 segments. Something like this will let us know the hard parts of your ride. A slow wind motor might work for you, or maybe a mid-drive (650w)......BUT we need to know what the steep uphill grade %'s are.

:D

EDIT: this might prove useful....http://www.csgnetwork.com/inclinedeclinegrademcalc.html
 
20k makes it a piece of cake. That would only take about 48v 10 ah, and of course it goes nice and quick too.

A very good choice then would be the batteries from EM3ev, and just a 20 amps controller would give you lots of power to get up the hills.

All I was really trying to say earlier, is that 48v 15 ah is tight for the full distance, unless you slowed down. I agree with the post above that says 48v 20 ah is enough. I mean the 36k there and 36 k back. 40k both ways is easily in the range of a 48v 15 ah pack, at 32 kph cruising speed.

The problem is not that you wouldn't make it the full distance on an ideal day, the problem is when the weather screws you, and there is no way you can get the same range riding into a gale.
 
Hello again dear ebike enthusiasts

One of my friends loaned me a electric bike (Grace MX 250 W) and I tried it from home to work. It has 11,6 Ah 400 Wh.
The distance was 32.47 km and it took 1:43 min to bicycle the distance . The altitude changes was from 35m to 202m over sea and avg.speed was 15.2km/h.
When I finished at work the battery indicator showed me that it had 33% of the battery power left.
I had problems up the steepest hill because it hadn't enough power. I bicycled the whole time. I couldn't bicycle faster then 25km/h because the cadence of the pedals was to hi. Had to turn the pedals really many times to get faster.

My hope is to find a solution that can do those things:
Get me the whole way 38 km distance ( with help from me pedaling all the way but not to heavy pedaling 50%.
Get the average speed up to 25-30 km/h without having to hi cadence.
And doing this without getting the bicycle to heavy because I'm heavy enough for my bike.
Skjermbilde.JPG

So my question is: What motor alternative do you recommend and which chaise of battery would do the job.

I have been thinking about the 1680 W cyclone motor but I'm afraid that it need to big battery packages to get me the whole way?
I was leaning at mid motor solution but after trying a 500 W hub bike I'm not shore anymore about mid motor solution.

P.S I'm sorry about my writing.

With regards
Lafinn
 
A big slow hub for reliability, ideally the X5404 that is still available new, or a used X5305 or 06 if you can find one. Those hub motors can do your commute day after day with power and reliability, and the build will be simple enough.

Next is more complicated: You need to learn to maintain aggressive RC batteries, for your capacity requirement is too high to conveniently use safer chemistry. The advantages are that they will supply high power and can be charged very fast, the down side is that they can catch fire if not cared for properly. 21 Lbs of RC lipo will let you ride your hilly commute pretty fast, that is if you set a charging station at work.

I would build on the Giant, setting batteries both on the front of a double crown fork that you will need to buy, and in the frame for 2/3 of them. Recommended batteries: 12 bricks 6s 5800 mah Zippy or 9 bricks of 8s 5800 mah Zippy compact or 12 bricks of 6s 6000 mah Turnigy nanotech if you don't care about some extra expenses.

Another solution is to build on small wheels, letting you use a faster motor in those hills without much consequences. The bike will be ugly and a harsher ride, but it will be powerful and reliable. A big e-scooter upgraded with Headway cells and bigger controller could also do the job.
 
Hello

Thanks for all the help. I got my hands on a GNG mid drive motor 450 W brush less and 48V 11,6 Ah li-ion battery. Then to have some insight on power usage I got cycle analyst.
Something in the controller from GNG wouldn't work so I got another controller with max current of 26 A. That should give around 1250 W.
I bought the battery and C.A from Underdogs bike her in Norway and can i recommend them for god prices and great service. They have the website http://www.underdogbikes.no.
The cycle is performing well and I have had my first trip to work on it. I'm sorry to say that the battery didn't last all of the way but I only had 3 km left when it got flat.

I hope that I will get it to last all of the way.
Pictures of my bike>
http://www.underdogbikes.no/hall-of-fame.html

P.S I'm sorry about my writing.

With regards
Lafinn
 
Hello again

I have bought a GNG 450W Brusless kit. And my first problem was that the controller didn't work properly. So I changed it 1250W controller. That worked great but at my first commuting back from work (ca. 70km) the freewheel in the crank broke down. Do any one have some replacement solutions for that. This is a former 27 gear bike so it has 9 gear in the cassette. I think the alignments of the chain from the front crank gear to the back gear is to much out of alignment so it causes to much of a strain on the freewheel.
Do any one have any solutions for that?

With regards
Olafur David
 
Lafinn said:
Im was hoping that I could install some electric kit on one of my bicycles to use to work?
I have to bicycle’s:
1. Giant anthem x3
- Light and stiff Fox F100RL 100mm suspension fork and Fox Float RP2 rear shock
- Shimano Deore shifting/brakeset with Race Face Ride XC crankset
- Race Face Ride XC handlebar, seatpost and stem
- Mavic XM 117 rim/sealed-bearing hubs, wheelset
2. Nacamura Fatbike
Chassi Trippelbuttet Aluminium size 19” Fork Aluminium Krank Samox Utveksling 22/36 Girhendler Shimano Alivio Navgir Shimano DeoreKrankgir Shimano SLX Bremser Tektro HDC-330 Felg/nav C4 103mm felger og Shimano Deore/C4 nav
Which of the bicycle would you recommend to motorizes and what type system (motor and battery) do you recommend?
I’m a big man so I probably need more then 250W to move me around.
Click to expand...
First big trade-off. Its all in the wheels. Fat bikes are best for absorbing road shock, especially for heavier loads, like on cargo bikes. But those tires are also harder to push down the road. A thinner tire and one made for streets or the urban environment would be better in your situation because of the distance & hills. I suggest a tire in the 2" size as a best compromise. Read up on the various tire threads on the forum. I'm currently using a Maxxis Holy Roller, which is fatter because that works for me.
Lafinn said:
What motor would you recommend for the task and what battery would you advise me to use?
Click to expand...
`
You seem like a smart guy that is thinking rigorously and methodically about the problem. So, its a comparative process in picking the motor and battery. Do them separately, though many vendors will bundle together. I'm just coming out of my first eBike workshop at Technocopia, where we undertook this process, individual by individual, bike by bike. As part of that I put together this list of top motors and vendors. I recommend choosing BOTH motor & vendor as they are both equally important. The latter with respect to ongoing service, before, during and after your build. Put together a matrix of motors and their characteristics. Do the analysis. While many here in ESLand will simply respond by making a recommendation, I believe its important for you to perform your own independent analysis, because there are many, many ins&outs to the various offerings.
I'm a electrician and have been working with super capacitors. Is it possible to use super capacitors for the regen part. It is much quicker to recharge than battery.
Click to expand...
Totally cool. Yea, there are threads here on the forum where like-minded folks are working on this. There is a way of integrating capacitors in a benign way. There are open-source controller threads, folks building their own boards and so forth. What's needed is a controller add-in with sufficient capacitor to suck up regenerative breaking and then release that on the next acceleration. Succeed and do a Kickstarter for the product.
Has anyone some experience of Lithium Iron Magnesium Phosphate battery http://www.valence.com/?
Click to expand...
I just bought a LiFeMnPO4 power pack from Elite Power. I'll report back my experience after I have some. FYI, with respect to batteries, I build my own from top-notch A123 - the nanophosphate stuff of supreme excellence.
With regards
Lafinn
Click to expand...
Likewise, best regards and good luck! :mrgreen:
Lafinn said:
I have bought a GNG 450W Brusless kit....
Click to expand...
Ah, forget the above since you already committed. FYI, 450 watts is too little. You need at least a 1000 watts, like the new enhanced MAC from http://em3ev.com/store/ which was recommended by others on this thread.
 
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