HK Lipo Bricks - what do I choose and why?

[macribs]

I said it before and will repeat it one more time for the "all Hat and no Cattle" gang, DO NOT overlook volume sales and production. For best results stick with the most common sizes and connection schemes.

For example, those plugs seem "neato" but you're really just adding more potential points of failure into an already cluttered connection environment. Most folks don't really understand what goes into connecting 20S4P battery packs. Gotta get into the game to understand the many nuances involved here...

And do you really want some oddball brick(s) intended for a more "specific buyer" possibly sitting around on shelves for long periods of time? Not me. I'll go with the most plentiful and freshest stuff that's hard to keep in stock long before messing around with "weird sized" potentially older stock.

At the price of under $25 per 20C 5Ah 4S brick you can keep plenty on hand for whatever C rate or problems that WILL arise.

Well you sir seems very firm on this, so much so I think I might just follow your advice. I guess you must have done various Lipo builds over time and know this from real life experience. And as I don't know dick about this I better listen to the ones that do.

So this is the model you recommend? Link to HK in the img.
Turnigy 5000mAh 4S1P 14.8v 20C, 24,85 $.:




So to a more practical part, does it matter which hobbyking warehouse I shop from, or do they send from the warehouse closest to me after order is put in? I guess really what I am asking which warehouse has the largest customer base, and the highest turnover for batteries? I guess that can be a factor as the Lipo bricks start to deteriorate the minute the leave the assembly line.

What kind of connectors and soldering parts is recommended?


If anyone knows about a how-to-video for lipo bricks a link would be handy. Or if you are putting a pack together any time soon maybe you can shoot that session so us noobies can use as references?

 

[Ohbse]

I have had no issues with my pack assembled from 10 of those bricks. Several hundred cycles, 5000+km and can still pull 8kw+ from 10ah, though it's quite saggy doing it.

See here for an example of how you should build battery packs. http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=40171&p=584864&hilit=forklift+fuse#p584864

In my case I have paired up my bricks, paralleled the discharge leads and balance leads for each pair. The pairs of bricks are then connected in series and I used velcro to hold together the pack, this is very secure and the individual batteries are well protected from abrasion or impact.

 

[friendly1uk]

Only issue I have with the 20c hardcase range, is they all have an even cell count. 13s is an odd number. Making the commonly used 48v a problem.

What packs come close in value? Are there no close competitors?

 

[dogman dan]

They make 3s packs too, if you want 13s. I run a lot of 14s, some of it using 4 3s packs and a 2s. At that moment in late spring, you couldn't buy a 4s or a 6s.

Always buy from what is in plentiful stock, from the closest warehouse to you. Ideally, a warehouse this side of customs to you. It will cost more, but less problems with temporary hiccups with getting them out of china.

Nothing wrong really, with the buy all 20c stuff plan. It's just that in 10 ah size, you will have sag.

Connecting up lipos can be done many ways. Much depends on your needs. I have stuff in my garage that runs on 24v,36v, 48v, and sometimes 72v. So I need to keep all plugs on packs intact. This means I have lots of 4mm plugs and wire to parallel them as needed. LOTS of plugs and wire.

One way to simplify stuff is to permanently pair packs in 10 ah bundles, then you half the number of plugs. Don't cut wires and crimp or solder parallel connections till you have tested packs, and know they aren't going to fail in 10 cycles.

Again, I do recommend you build two packs, each one 10 ah in size. Then if one has an issue, you can always run on the other while you fix the one with a problem. Chances are, you cant carry it all in one big box anyway.

Ykick has one thing exactly right, buying the cheap packs means it's easy to order 3-4 extras. Then use only the ones that test out the best.

For what you want to do, it's really a bummer you can't get a 20 ah 1s pack in the same size hardcase box. Very tempting to open them, resolder them all parallel, and then put the box back together. But not something to do as your first try.

 

[macribs]

They make 3s packs too, if you want 13s. I run a lot of 14s, some of it using 4 3s packs and a 2s. At that moment in late spring, you couldn't buy a 4s or a 6s.

Not sure I understand what you say, but I think that you could not find 4s or 6s in stock so you got 3s?

Always buy from what is in plentiful stock, from the closest warehouse to you. Ideally, a warehouse this side of customs to you. It will cost more, but less problems with temporary hiccups with getting them out of china.

Nothing wrong really, with the buy all 20c stuff plan. It's just that in 10 ah size, you will have sag.

Ok what if I run 84v 20 Ah - will there be noticeable sag then you think?
I get to pay VAT of 25% no matter where it is send from, but it might get faster to buy it from euopean warehouse.

Connecting up lipos can be done many ways. Much depends on your needs. I have stuff in my garage that runs on 24v,36v, 48v, and sometimes 72v. So I need to keep all plugs on packs intact. This means I have lots of 4mm plugs and wire to parallel them as needed. LOTS of plugs and wire.

One way to simplify stuff is to permanently pair packs in 10 ah bundles, then you half the number of plugs. Don't cut wires and crimp or solder parallel connections till you have tested packs, and know they aren't going to fail in 10 cycles.

Again, I do recommend you build two packs, each one 10 ah in size. Then if one has an issue, you can always run on the other while you fix the one with a problem. Chances are, you cant carry it all in one big box anyway.

Ykick has one thing exactly right, buying the cheap packs means it's easy to order 3-4 extras. Then use only the ones that test out the best.

For what you want to do, it's really a bummer you can't get a 20 ah 1s pack in the same size hardcase box. Very tempting to open them, resolder them all parallel, and then put the box back together. But not something to do as your first try.

I am trying to farm out the build of this pack, it seems there are so many things that can go wrong it better to let someone with experience do the build.

 

[dnmun]

Another thing that might be nice with this pack I am set on is that the wires are not soldered to the battery. So that should make it easier to do custom length of wires when putting the pack together. I seems all the wiring can easily eat up a lot of space inside a battery box. So I think it will be best to try to keep wires as short as possible and as neat as possible to leave room for BMS, charger and controller also inside the battery box.

what makes you think the wires are not connected to the battery? you should not include the controller and charger inside the battery compartment.

if you use a BMS then it has to be built in such a way that the BMS can balance the pack. similar to how i explained to RG12 this morning.

you have to use the full charge voltage of 4.20V as the final voltage in your calculations. the BMS will balance the pack to 4.20V so your charger has to put out that voltage in order for the BMS to balance the pack. so you will have to adjust the charger to that voltage.

 

[macribs]

Another thing that might be nice with this pack I am set on is that the wires are not soldered to the battery. So that should make it easier to do custom length of wires when putting the pack together. I seems all the wiring can easily eat up a lot of space inside a battery box. So I think it will be best to try to keep wires as short as possible and as neat as possible to leave room for BMS, charger and controller also inside the battery box.

what makes you think the wires are not connected to the battery? you should not include the controller and charger inside the battery compartment.

1: Well because for that battery it said so on the website, there was even a picture of it. Wires was only connected to battery via smart connectors. So in fact removable.

2: Yes I should include charger and controller inside, controller will be permanently mounted inside the batterybox - charger I can put internal when needed for charge-on-the-go. If it is heat you are worried about 1 or more fans will cool the controller, along with a big ass heat sink from controller to the frame. Charger will only need have a "storage space" inside the battery box. I can take it out when charging if charger gets very hot.

if you use a BMS then it has to be built in such a way that the BMS can balance the pack. similar to how i explained to RG12 this morning.

Yes I know. And I have asked for that specifically in the thread where I ask if someone is willing to do such a build for me..

 

[friendly1uk]

They make 3s packs too, if you want 13s. I run a lot of 14s, some of it using 4 3s packs and a 2s. At that moment in late spring, you couldn't buy a 4s or a 6s.

Thanks for the reply. Do you have link? I spent quite some time looking. I found they used to do them, but stopped some time ago. Due to some mystical fault with the odd numbered packs. One cell failing, and the blame being orientation. A bit like we see in many results. End cells dropping faster, that can then recover beyond the level of better looking cells. Which can be explained, except for why it happens at the end of a string with more regularity than the odds imply.

Well it mystifies me anyway. All I want to hear is where to get a 3s hardcase, not a headache

 

[dogman dan]

It was almost two years ago that I ended up buying 3s packs. If not in stock now, then that's not possible.

 

[macribs]

So when decided what battery to go for what else do I need?
Some sort of fuse, right? What is the recommended type to get? Remember 84v20Ah.

I've seen two different types in here, one type was like a glass fuse. I think it was really made for electric fork lifts.

The other type is what kind of looks like a regular household circuit breaker to me, an automatic fuse with a reset button.

And what kind of ready made wire harness is there out there for those Lipo bricks? I mean there are wires from batteries plus/minus and the balancing wires. Any ready made kits for this setup?

 

[Jeremy E.]

I have no experience, but have been doing lots of research. I think you should do 72v nominal, I don't think you can make 84v with 4s packs.
If you get 20 4S1P packs, you can make 20ah of 72v. With a 50 or less amp controller, 20C should suffice. If you have issues and have to just do 1 10ah pack, you will need to reduce speed to prevent sag.

 

[macribs]

Yeah the 84v I mentioned is fresh off the charger. 72v nom and 84v freshly charged. 20s4p.
At the moment it might look like there will be a wider frame with room for 32s so I might consider breaking the 100v barrier. Or go for insane range. I am awaiting some info for another controller that might work well for my needs and that particular controller will work well even past 100v so 32s might be an option. I mean if the controller can take it, the frame can hold it why not go crazy?

Or I might do 20s6p for 84v30Ah.

Will there be any less sag if I run 20s6p for a 30Ah rather then 20Ah? Or should I use that extra frame space for higher voltage?
The space is there to be used - but I am not sure where I will get the most gain. Higher voltage or higher Ah?

 

[dogman dan]

Definitely less sag with more AH. At some point, when sag is minimal, adding more will yield diminishing returns.

If you get to around 1c discharge rates, you won't see much sag even with the cheap 20c stuff.

Chances are you are getting a decently low sag now, and your motor can likely handle more volts. Mostly it depends on if you want faster. At some point, more volts will start resulting in a very difficult to control throttle at lower speeds.

 

[ElectricGod]

I know I am resurrecting a thread that has been silent for a year, but a year is significant.

There was a lot of talk about hard case packs. I'm wondering how that turned out? Did anyone try zippy batteries how did they work out? What about turnagy packs? Are the current ones still as good as they used to be? I have just bought 4 6S 8000mah zippy packs from HK...assuming they ever get them in stock. I looked at a few sites out there that do battery reviews and zippy packs rated pretty well. I bought 4 6S packs to create 2 48 volt packs just for test purposes before I bump up to 72 volts. I think trying them out a few at a time should give me a good feel for how well a particular battery pack holds up. My current project is running on 48v, but soon will be at 72v once I get new batteries. I have a back ground in electronics and went to school for an EE degree so I understand the details and have already built up 4 12S LIPO that have served me pretty well. I'm looking for what battery I should go to next. I'm looking for inexpensive, reliable (low failure rates), 10C or better real discharge rates, low weight batteries. My 4 existing packs are made of 3C 8000mah cells and I definitely feel the sag issue. Most of the time I am drawing 20-40 amps and the battery voltage drops off pretty fast at 40 amps until I back off the throttle a little. As a result I will be using much higher C rated cells this time. Also, my existing cells are showing around 90mOhms or higher per cell after 6 months of use. They used to be around 40mOhms when new so I know my existing batteries are going to need to be replaced sooner than later.

I will be building 3 or 4 packs. Each will have an independent BMS. I'm looking at using this BMS (http://bestechpower.com/74v20spcmbmspcbforli-ionli-polymerbatterypack/BMS-D276.html) so if anyone has opinions on the best BMS that would be great too. I wont be going the Adapto route as I already have 2 kelly motor controllers that work great. That of course means BMS's from some other source. I know people do it, but I think LIPO's in parallel is a bad idea so I wont be doing a 20S3P or whatever pack. Each cell will have it's own individual balance connection.

Thanks for your help everyone

 

[ScooterMan101]

It's been a year now , I am sure more batteries available now , especially multistar.

What would you buy these days from HK ?

Higher S packs , like 6s or 7s ?

Only HK Lipo I bother buying anymore is 4S 20C 5Ah Turnigy hardcase.

 

[Ykick]

It's been a year now , I am sure more batteries available now , especially multistar.

What would you buy these days from HK ?

Higher S packs , like 6s or 7s ?

Only HK Lipo I bother buying anymore is 4S 20C 5Ah Turnigy hardcase.

Still buying/using 20C 4S 5Ah Turnigy hardcase. In fact, 'couple months ago they could be had for $15/brick. Some people say/think HK was dumping defective stock but I didn't get any duds. Only thing I could figure was manufacture date early April 2015 so my guess they just needed to make room for new stock?

For my purposes, hardcase form factor means a lot. They fit together nicely and have some protection against bumps and bruises.

Don't have any direct experience with the Multistar bricks. 'Looked at 'em a few times over the year - got some big Ah ones but basically assembled from smaller pouches.

But for now, sticking to what appears to be high production number, fast turnover stock that fits my battery pack ecosystem. Especially when $15/brick, LOL....

This probably means absolutely nothing but out of +50 bricks purchased from over 2 years ago to present, 2 have suffered an early demise. 1 cell in each brick. One defect was simply the tab tore from the pouch. The other failure was one that ruptured, swelled and just went bad. BMS cutoff early one night, took a look didn't see anything obvious but when I used my nose, easy to detect a problem. Dug into it and there it was, bad cell ruptured.

All others are still in service. Older ones sag more than the newer ones but all serving me and a few other "responsible" folks well.

 

[ElectricGod]

Thanks for your response. Hard case bricks have the advantage of being less likely to get damaged. I'm building a T shaped pack so hard case bricks will be a problem. I need to use free swimming LIPO's and put them together in a way that fills the available space as best as possible. My existing packs are wrapped in high density foam and then in kapton tape. They have survived quite nicely. I'll probably continue using this method for making a large pack. I just need cells that are going to be reliable.

 

[ScooterMan101]

Ykick,

The price is now 2 x as much, now the Turnigy is $ 29.99

I have noticed a couple of times what looks like a great deal on Li-Po's on HK,
But
I think what happens is a typo from a worker and if you catch it at the right time, you get a great deal.

The Multistar's look like a better deal now. More Amperage for less $ , they are however 10c, so not sure what real world amp draw would be max for longer life ?

 

[ScooterMan101]

I sure do wish that we could buy, Presently, solder less / non weld, battery holders for 18650's in long shapes to fit onto full suspension and small and women's frames.
Like the Shark battery pack , now available at Luna.

Holders for 18650's
In 14s 4p and 14 s 5 p
and
16 s 4p , 16s 5p
Configurations .

14s chargers are just now appearing for sale ( the blue one at Luna ) , where are the 16 s chargers ?

Where are the ... not so expensive chargers ? that can switch from 10s to 12 s to 13 s , 14 s 16 s ?

 

[ElectricGod]

You can get 18650 holders. You just have to solder them together in the configuration that want. This holds 4 18650's, but they come in other sizes too. I bought several to make some 18650 battery packs. These things hold the batteries very well.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/371342603518?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

On the subject of the Multistar 10C packs, they aren't very good...or that's what I have read on several forums. People claim they suffer from sag pretty badly. Use them at like 1 or 2 C and you should be OK, but 10C and they don't hold up at all. You know how it is...you get what you pay for.

 

[ScooterMan101]

That holder is kind of what I was thinking about , it however does not have the wires soldered on like the same holders for AA/AAA size batteries.

Hopefully someone here will start a thread about building a pack with those. there is a better option though,

I am really talking about the industry/ people here on E.S. designing the same, type, of holder , except in shapes of 13,14, 16 s with soldered bars and bms , and wires , and long thin shapes to fit into any frame ( bottle mount on the down tube )
In other words all ready to just slip in the 18650's

You can get 18650 holders. You just have to solder them together in the configuration that want. This holds 4 18650's, but they come in other sizes too. I bought several to make some 18650 battery packs. These things hold the batteries very well.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/371342603518?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

On the subject of the Multistar 10C packs, they aren't very good...or that's what I have read on several forums. People claim they suffer from sag pretty badly. Use them at like 1 or 2 C and you should be OK, but 10C and they don't hold up at all. You know how it is...you get what you pay for.

 

[ScooterMan101]

That 2 c number seems to be close to what some people here on E.S. say , that is to really use about 25% of what a hobby lipo's pack says it is capable of continuously .

2c sounds ok if you were to make a 14s or 16 s pack that has 10 amp hours of capacity ?
even a 12 s pack that 10amps ?


[/quote]
On the subject of the Multistar 10C packs, they aren't very good...or that's what I have read on several forums. People claim they suffer from sag pretty badly. Use them at like 1 or 2 C and you should be OK, but 10C and they don't hold up at all. You know how it is...you get what you pay for.[/quote]

 

[ElectricGod]

10 amps to me is about equivalent to 10mph. 30mph is more like 30 amps. I wouldn't know what to do with a single pack running at 10 amps...except to make several 10 amp packs and run them in parallel.

Regarding those 18650 holders. Buy the ones you think will work for your solution and build it yourself. Just keep in mind that you are adding a lot of size to the whole battery pack in the form of all those battery holders. It's pretty much why people don't do this I think. I think it's cool to have a way to replace a bad cell easily, but it also adds a lot of bulk to the battery pack solution. Most people are looking for the most energy storage in the most compact form factor possible. What might not be too bad for cylindrical batteries would be long tubes with thread on caps. An 18650 is really only good for 3000mah for the top quality batteries. Even though you can pull current from them at a much higher rate. 3000mah is a pathetically small amount of capacity. As a result people built up packs with many cells in parallel. I know they are less common and more expensive, but the in my opinion the 32650 is at least typically 6000mah and therefore close to the bottom end of the capacity range that I consider useful.

The fact the most common LION cells are cylinders and the fact that their capacities are small has caused me to stay away from them. I want to eliminate wasted space between cells and cylinders have lots of wasted space between them. LIPOs on the other hand are flat rectangles and as a result they pack together quite nicely. If you want easily replaceable cells, consider single or 2 cell LIPO hard packs and then build some kind of hot swap back plane for them.

 

[ScooterMan101]

There are presently people working on making better 18650 holders, full size holders that would hold like 13s 4p and so on. Horizontally with the series and parallel metal strips built in,
However they are just not on the market yet for us to buy.

I do like your idea of string of batteries in a long tube, Just like what a Flashlight does now .

I have only heard of the Hobby Lipo's and the 18650's
So
Your listing a 32650 is something I had no Idea existed . I want to learn more. Still the same 3.7 to 4.2 volt range ?

Which Mfg's are the good ones and which are the bad quality ones ?

10 amps to me is about equivalent to 10mph. 30mph is more like 30 amps. I wouldn't know what to do with a single pack running at 10 amps...except to make several 10 amp packs and run them in parallel.

Regarding those 18650 holders. Buy the ones you think will work for your solution and build it yourself. Just keep in mind that you are adding a lot of size to the whole battery pack in the form of all those battery holders. It's pretty much why people don't do this I think. I think it's cool to have a way to replace a bad cell easily, but it also adds a lot of bulk to the battery pack solution. Most people are looking for the most energy storage in the most compact form factor possible. What might not be too bad for cylindrical batteries would be long tubes with thread on caps. An 18650 is really only good for 3000mah for the top quality batteries. Even though you can pull current from them at a much higher rate. 3000mah is a pathetically small amount of capacity. As a result people built up packs with many cells in parallel. I know they are less common and more expensive, but the in my opinion the 32650 is at least typically 6000mah and therefore close to the bottom end of the capacity range that I consider useful.

The fact the most common LION cells are cylinders and the fact that their capacities are small has caused me to stay away from them. I want to eliminate wasted space between cells and cylinders have lots of wasted space between them. LIPOs on the other hand are flat rectangles and as a result they pack together quite nicely. If you want easily replaceable cells, consider single or 2 cell LIPO hard packs and then build some kind of hot swap back plane for them.

 

[ScooterMan101]

Hot swap back plane ?
not picturing that, but would like to, do you have a picture or drawing ?

I am finally starting to consider buying Hobby Lipo's , since the
18650 cell packs that are for sale , commercially , are still up there in price,
and the 13/14/16 s by 4 or 5 p slip in 18650 holders are just not available for sale right now .

10 amps to me is about equivalent to 10mph. 30mph is more like 30 amps. I wouldn't know what to do with a single pack running at 10 amps...except to make several 10 amp packs and run them in parallel.

Regarding those 18650 holders. Buy the ones you think will work for your solution and build it yourself. Just keep in mind that you are adding a lot of size to the whole battery pack in the form of all those battery holders. It's pretty much why people don't do this I think. I think it's cool to have a way to replace a bad cell easily, but it also adds a lot of bulk to the battery pack solution. Most people are looking for the most energy storage in the most compact form factor possible. What might not be too bad for cylindrical batteries would be long tubes with thread on caps. An 18650 is really only good for 3000mah for the top quality batteries. Even though you can pull current from them at a much higher rate. 3000mah is a pathetically small amount of capacity. As a result people built up packs with many cells in parallel. I know they are less common and more expensive, but the in my opinion the 32650 is at least typically 6000mah and therefore close to the bottom end of the capacity range that I consider useful.

The fact the most common LION cells are cylinders and the fact that their capacities are small has caused me to stay away from them. I want to eliminate wasted space between cells and cylinders have lots of wasted space between them. LIPOs on the other hand are flat rectangles and as a result they pack together quite nicely. If you want easily replaceable cells, consider single or 2 cell LIPO hard packs and then build some kind of hot swap back plane for them.