I'm considering buying a Chevy Volt

[-dg]

I love my Spark EV. We've had it two months now and the electric driving experience is so much better that it has displaced our Honda Fit as our favorite to drive. The Fit really is a nicer car in a bunch of ways, but an ICE car just doesn't compare. That said, the Spark is a tiny car. Comfy for 4, but no cargo space.

As far as I can tell from the internet the Volt is a great car and would be good for your situation. It may be different in Canada, but here the battery has an 8 year 100k mile warranty against losing more then 30% of capacity. If I had to do it all with one car the Volt would be at the top of the list.

I'm a little surprised to be talking like this as I have hated GM cars for most of my adult life, they made some really awful cars. But the most recent rental I had, a Sonic, was pretty nice and the Spark is awesome albeit with some minor annoyances.

If you can get good terms on a lease that might be the best way to insulate yourself from the unpredictable resale value of new tech and from any residual GM suckiness while still taking advantage of the fuel savings. In our case we scrapped our 20 year old Accord and got the Spark and it is costing less then $50 per month once the incentives and fuel savings are factored in.

 

[Arlo1]

Hey doc what about building something?
Where I am in Canada Electrics a still a premium price. All I have to do is go south and a quick 5 hr trip to have access to lots of crashed cars. I saw a lot of leafs and Prius's on the road down there Luke's & My friend has each and was showing me all of them crashed and for sale online. I think you can get a power train from flood damage cars and work from there.
Have you seen the link on Diy electric Car forums for the Used leaf battery?

I would not buy a car based on what you use it for 2-3 times a year. I would buy it based on your daily use and either borrow or rent or modify your car for the 2-3 times a year!
Just order 2 leaf packs (makes one leaf battery) and have double the range! They are $2500 a pack so 5000 for a whole leaf battery. Or make a trip to Enerdel just south of you and get some new cells.

 

[flathill]

There is dnmum that send me a pretty interesting link about some test did on a 2011 volt battery pack.

If you read carefully you will discover that over the milleage the Volt have good battery capacity conservation,,,, but i was really surprized to see how the power capability that the battery can deliver drop fast over the milleage !!!


according to what i see, the battery lost nearly 13% of max power it can deliver between 8000 miles to 23000 miles on the odo !! it started with about 115kW at 8000 miles and droped to 100kW at 23000 miles. This was calculated with the battery internal resistance degradation.


http://www.inl.gov/technicalpublications/Documents/5806453.pdf


I dont know what to think about that... for sure if they would have kept the A123 battery brand they would not have so high degradation... :?

I just hope that it is not linear!! because at 62000 miles ( 100000km) that car battery max acheivable power will drop to 63kW !! (it had about 115kW power at 8000 miles) that's a big power drop from the battery!...

i'm not su sure of what to think about that...

These LG chem are LiMnO2 if i remember correctly?

Doc

manganese will always dissolve in the electrolyte. good power density but poor calendar life. same thing with the leaf. batteries are not holding up as advertised. their cycle testing would not whow this effect. they thought by not using the full capacity they would make the pack last longer, but calendar life effects dominate long term

you can slow it by keeping the cells at the perfect temp but not stop it. alumunium will never dissolve in the electrolyte. which is why nasa does not use manganese in space apps. saft has been making nca cells since the late 90s and they are still showing little signs of calendar aging. another winner is the hard carbon sony cell. for some reason those last forever also. nca for the win

 

[MitchJi]

Hi Doc,

These LG chem are LiMnO2 if i remember correctly?

Doc

I think they are NMC. Luke will know for sure.

People who have the Volts like them a lot.

I think you should also consider the BMW i3, if the price is similar to the Volt.

You should probably do some test drives of the various makes and models.

 

[flathill]

lg chem
licensed tech from argonne
double layer nmc

http://www.anl.gov/sites/anl.gov/files/ESMS_BatteryStorage_Fact%20Sheet_September%202013.pdf

layered layered
http://web.anl.gov/techtransfer/pdf/fact_sheets/manganese_oxide_electrodes.pdf

manganese will still dissolve in electrolyte
nmc has the best combination of power/energy density for the cost and safety

nca almost matches power density but lasts 20-40 yrs if kept the right temp

 

[www.recumbents.com]

The one thing about the Volt that galls me is that it requires premium gas.

 

[liveforphysics]

The one thing about the Volt that galls me is that it requires premium gas.

There should be no "regular" if you care about efficiency and/or economy. Thermal losses are where most of the fuel you fill your tank with and burn is wasted. The higher the mechanical expansion of the burned gasses, the more energy can be transferred into mechanical force twisting the crankshaft and less going out the tailpipe as heat.

You get no advantages (typically a disadvantage) running an engine designed for regular on premium sadly. You only get advantages from premium if the vehicle is designed with a higher compression ratio to take advantage of it. All vehicles should be designed burn premium, premium should be the only option, and IMHO it should be >10octane points higher than it is in CA to help save fuel.


The lossy and wasteful part about a Volt I don't like is all the gears and power transfer stages before it gets to the wheels. They take motor with such awesome efficiency, and then double it's inefficiency and energy loss, heat-load etc the motor makes in slopping oil around and rubbing gear teeth together. This is because EV's are still so heavily influenced by existing ICE drivetrain designers, they haven't realized they can skip all the added failure modes and weight and cost and complexity and simply have an axle bolt directly to the rotor of a motor for each drive wheel and do EVERYTHING better.

 

[MitchJi]

Hi Doc,

If I had to put it in one line, I’d just say that the BMW i3 is my favorite car I’ve ever driven — smooth, quick, super comfortable, super fun, extremely eco-friendly, stylish, cool, and strong but quiet.


Read more at http://cleantechnica.com/2013/11/24/review-bmw-i3-videos/#Z5m7oHW7R2o1SRj4.99

MSRP on the i3 is about $10k more than the Volt.

Hondas are great cars. The problem with buying a Honda EV, is it is Honda's corporate policy is to Screw you when you need parts. The prices for the Honda insight replacement packs are obscene. It's a good bet that their EV replacement pack prices will be extremely high also.

 

[Doctorbass]

That is a really great discussion guys. I enjoy it alot and apprecaite all your comment andopinoins 8)

I see all of your personality that highlight thru your opinions wich make me smile :wink:

Here in Canada to be able to get the registration of a DIY EV is becoming more and more complex.. they nearly ask you a crash test!!! I heard some bad story about a guy that converted a Sprint metro and spent about 12000$ and still can not get it registred!.



Well the option about building an EV or converting an existing car to EV is very risky and i would not get the same confort and safety as the Volt can give me.

The Volt remain the most atractive choice. I was hoping that there could be another great car in other brand that would release in 2014 that is ssame principle as the volt (electric powertrain and gas generator to recharge) but ther eis only one availlable here wich is the bmw I3 and it cost too much... having that amount of cash i would spend 20k$ more and get a Tesla..

Doc

 

[Arlo1]

Doc the insurance is not that hard. You can just keep it insured as a gasoline car...... Otherwise you do the "you built status" and prove the frame and safety features are not altered.

 

[dnmun]

what about doing a plug in hybrid conversion? i can understand your arguments for needing the 'range extender' option, but i could never afford that kinda cost upfront to buy one myself.

i think the hack that peter perkins has developed for the honda insight has a number of advantages. so putting $2k into an insight and then another $5k into a big A123 pack like he did would provide the mileage but not the EV only mode. but a lotta work too.

 

[liveforphysics]

Google 2014 accord plug in hybrid if you haven't already.

From a motor/drivetrain perspective it crushes the Volt and Prius and LEAF. It just has a smallish pack as it's only weakness, but the energy available might not be too different, as I know the Volt pack gets cycled so shallow. (Like 50-60% DOD or something).

It has all the advantages of blending the ICE power with the electric for around town like the other systems, but at high speeds it engages a clutch (all automatically and totally transparent to the user) that mechanically ties the engine to drive the wheels (and recharge the pack at the same time) with no transmission to be wasting your power.

It's seriously a cool design. If you have stock in companies making transmissions, sell it, cause cars aren't going to use those heavy expensive energy wasting boxes for long, the Honda is proof of it, even just in small battery hybrid form rather than plug-in form its milage is 50city/45hwy).

 

[dnmun]

that is such a good idea. did not realize the accord had such a refined system, just short EV range compare to the Volt. but built in 6kW charger that charges at 32A on 240V. one hour full recharge.

i can do that in my driveway charging spot. up to 3 charging at the same time using my setup.

but here is an article i ran across about the supposedly dirt cheap replacement costs for the Volt battery pack:

http://green.autoblog.com/2014/01/10/chevy-volt-battery-replacement-cost-34000/

 

[Bike Xing]

We have a Prius Plug-in and we're fairly satisfied with it. We would have liked to go all electric but this is our "do everything" family car and we couldn't make the short range work for as often as we need long range. After we bought it though GM lowered the price of the Volt enough to make it a wash with the Prius after rebates (in CA).
If I was buying now I'd get the Volt for the longer range. Especially now that it's cold the shorter range is a bit annoying. We go for a 10 mile drive and the engine runs to get to temp and so we're not able to use much of the electric capacity OR we go for a 100 mile drive and the ~12 miles on electric are just such a small percentage of the drive.
At my office there are 2 Leafs, 2 Ford Focus Electrics, and 1 Tesla. The Leafs and Focuses are very comparable. The guys who have them drive them 40 miles one way into the office where we have one level 2 charger.
The performance of the all electrics crush my Plug-in. They are all fun to drive.
And while electric is the way of the future I hope the Plug-in is the last car we ever need to buy. I want "my" next car to be autonomous and in that scenario I don't think I'll need to own it; just summon when needed and pay by the mile.

 

[flathill]

Google 2014 accord plug in hybrid if you haven't already.

From a motor/drivetrain perspective it crushes the Volt and Prius and LEAF. It just has a smallish pack as it's only weakness, but the energy available might not be too different, as I know the Volt pack gets cycled so shallow. (Like 50-60% DOD or something).

It has all the advantages of blending the ICE power with the electric for around town like the other systems, but at high speeds it engages a clutch (all automatically and totally transparent to the user) that mechanically ties the engine to drive the wheels (and recharge the pack at the same time) with no transmission to be wasting your power.

It's seriously a cool design. If you have stock in companies making transmissions, sell it, cause cars aren't going to use those heavy expensive energy wasting boxes for long, the Honda is proof of it, even just in small battery hybrid form rather than plug-in form its milage is 50city/45hwy).

Wow the new accord drivetrain is way way better than the volt! This is how the fisher karma was supposed to work but the fisher was supposed to be even better. It is a series/parallel hubrid but instead of the clutch fisher bought military hybrid tech but never used it. It is the same idea with two motors, one a gen and one a drive motor, but the military tech allows you to bypass the controller switching and directly power the motor with the generator. This negates the need for the clutch in parallel operation and you avoid controller switching losses. Very hard to get it working right as the motor and genset needs to be designed to operate in sync. Fischer never got it working as they outsourced the motor design to china. The best part of it all is now china is buying the tech (a123)

 

[Arlo1]

Hey Doc why not wait for the Tesla.... That what we are doing. Its only a year till the show the concept model and maybe 2 years till its released. It would really suck to spend all that money on a GM when something much better with a lower price is just around the corner!

 

[Doctorbass]

Hey Doc why not wait for the Tesla.... That what we are doing. Its only a year till the show the concept model and maybe 2 years till its released. It would really suck to spend all that money on a GM when something much better with a lower price is just around the corner!

That's a good point Arlo,

I also tought about that. The question is: will they have it ready to deliver in one or maybe 2 years for Canadian customers and will the price comparable to the volt?

I mean a 100% electric car with 300km range that is under 40k$ seem impossible now.. unless sthe battery price drop to 100$/Wh...

They said 35000$ price.. but how the hell will it me possible!.. just think about the battery..
I've been waiting for few years now before make the jump and consider geting one.As wel i could wait again but we.. i think that i will always be waiting if i wait until they release something better :lol: .

Doc

 

[Hillhater]

Hey Doc why not wait for the Tesla.... That what we are doing. Its only a year till the show the concept model and maybe 2 years till its released. It would really suck to spend all that money on a GM when something much better with a lower price is just around the corner!

In 2 years time there may be a whole lot more choices to pick from !
..including a lot more used ( 2014 spec) Volts & Leafs if those are still your preference !

 

[dnmun]

5 brand new 2012 nissan Leafs with water damage, all in newburgh, NY and one in York haven, Pa, went through the insurance auction today. they were totaled in NY state "parts only' and i never saw the final bids, but they had $3k-3500 bids hanging online when i looked.

all 5 looked in perfect condition with no obvious water damage or stains visible so no idea how they got there. they still had the white plastic protective shield on them. 0 miles.

 

[Hillhater]

Water (flood) damage on any vehicle can be either minor or a total nightmare. But if its salt water flood damage from Sandy..on an electric vehicle...then that could be a whole nest of rats !
Salt & sand/silt in everything and then stood for months..hmmm ? no thanks !
..and i might be a little wary of buying "as new" Leaf battery packs and spares, from local breakers in the near future !

 

[liveforphysics]

If its salt water flood damage from Sandy..on an electric vehicle...then that could be a whole nest of rats !
Salt & sand/silt in everything and then stood for months..hmmm ? no thanks !

Keep in mind, if you got the car for say $4k, you can take it to a shop to remove every piece of damaged rotted carpet/interior parts etc for under $500, then take it to an automotive detailing place to clean it all to like-new for under $500.

Now you have a $5k clean LEAF that needs an interior or whatever, which I'm sure you can buy one in great shape from an auto-wrecker for maybe $1k for everything, seats, headliner, carpets, etc.

Not trying to say any LEAF in any condition is a good deal, and it could be the batteries are destroyed in flooded ones, hell, they might have been in the ocean for months or whatever and are junk, but if you're a guy who is willing to get his hands dirty a bit, it can be a great deal to get one damaged for dirt cheap and fix it up. My buddy has been loving his fixer-upper LEAF, hasn't even started his gas car for a month.

 

[Hillhater]

Now you have a $5k clean LEAF that needs an interior or whatever, which I'm sure you can buy one in great shape from an auto-wrecker for maybe $1k for everything, seats, headliner, carpets, etc. .

Yes accident damage, bodywork , trim etc is all realtively easily/cheaply replaced, but you have not even started to look at the battery, motor, transmission, let alone any other mechanical or electrical/computer systems that were not designed for immersion in salt/sand for months. Even wheel bearings immersed in salt water are toast, brake rotors & calipers ?? etc.
Certainly would not buy without a detailed inspection.

But, back to the OP...
Did any of the European PSA ( Peugeot, Citroen etc) "Hybrid 4" vehicles make it over your way yet. ?
A attractive and useful option i suspect .. it would give you the 4wd option for the snow.
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2010/08/3008-20100824.html#more
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VWR4gjHfUOs

 

[Arlo1]

Now you have a $5k clean LEAF that needs an interior or whatever, which I'm sure you can buy one in great shape from an auto-wrecker for maybe $1k for everything, seats, headliner, carpets, etc. .

Yes accident damage, bodywork , trim etc is all realtively easily/cheaply replaced, but you have not even started to look at the battery, motor, transmission, let alone any other mechanical or electrical/computer systems that were not designed for immersion in salt/sand for months. Even wheel bearings immersed in salt water are toast, brake rotors & calipers ?? etc.
Certainly would not buy without a detailed inspection.

But, back to the OP...
Did any of the European PSA ( Peugeot, Citroen etc) "Hybrid 4" vehicles make it over your way yet. ?
A attractive and useful option i suspect ..
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2010/08/3008-20100824.html#more
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VWR4gjHfUOs

EDIT: Arlo was on crack

 

[Hillhater]

I seen this car its good to go. Its drivable right now and there is no sault/flood damage.

are you still refering to these cars ?

5 brand new 2012 nissan Leafs with water damage, all in newburgh, NY and one in York haven, Pa, went through the insurance auction today.

 

[dnmun]

it gets worse. i went and looked again and they have 18 more of these 2012 Leafs at these auctions, 1/16 and 1/20.

you can go to copart.com and use their search function to see them i think. i don't think the images come up when i link through my membership but if you go search, look for '2012 nissan leaf' and see if they come up.

on the first group, i saw no evidence of water intrusion or evidence that the vehicle had been in standing water but it does seem like they must have been in storage somewhere and that flooded leading to the insurance claims.

there are other good deals, there is even a 2002 honda insight in richmond.Va that has just slight curb rub on the lower trim around the right rear wheel that was donated so it was never even wrecked. 130k miles, 5 speed. i wanna cry.

ok, edited later after looking at the pictures: i did see water damage on the seats in one car. if you go there, enter this lot in the search to see the discoloration of the seats: Lot # 22285443, and corrosion on the battery hold bracket so these cars were fully submerged. lot 22286413, so some leaked and water got inside but looks like the entire vehicle was submerged. i guess the front would sink lowest if it floated.

but they are all just parts. cannot be retitled i would expect. that may depend on the state too.