Infineon vs Lyen

[drsolly]

I've got a couple of Infineon controllers from http://em3ev.com and I'm very happy with them. I've been reading here about the Lyen edition, and I was wondering - what would be the advantage of a "Lyen edition" over the Infineon? I'd be looking at a 6-fet or a 12 fet. I'm not likely to want to mod the controller.

On first view, it seems to me that one advantage that em3ev has, is they have a web site I can look at things on, whereas Lyne has one page and links to ES forum postings.

Thanks.

 

[gwhy!1]

I've got a couple of Infineon controllers from http://em3ev.com and I'm very happy with them. I've been reading here about the Lyen edition, and I was wondering - what would be the advantage of a "Lyen edition" over the Infineon? I'd be looking at a 6-fet or a 12 fet. I'm not likely to want to mod the controller.

On first view, it seems to me that one advantage that em3ev has, is they have a web site I can look at things on, whereas Lyne has one page and links to ES forum postings.

Thanks.

Same controllers , better options and more upfront from em3 and cheaper just wish postage was cheaper

 

[Drunkskunk]

Lyen's controllers are partialy modified Infineon. He has done the hard parts like solder in the FETs and connects the programing cable to the board. The rest is up to the end user to beef up the traces and get the programming tuned for their application.

The Lyen edition controllers won't be of use to you unless you are trying to push your bike beyond it's design limits, and have the technical skills to do so.

I've got several Lyen controllers for my high performance rigs. But I also have a half dozen regular Infineon that do very well even when pushed beyond stated specs.

 

[wineboyrider]

Lyen's controllers are partialy modified Infineon. He has done the hard parts like solder in the FETs and connects the programing cable to the board. The rest is up to the end user to beef up the traces and get the programming tuned for their application.

The Lyen edition controllers won't be of use to you unless you are trying to push your bike beyond it's design limits, and have the technical skills to do so.

I've got several Lyen controllers for my high performance rigs. But I also have a half dozen regular Infineon that do very well even when pushed beyond stated specs.

Exactly. And Lyen is only trying to sell to the ones that like to modify their ebikes, but don't have the skills to do so. I love my lyen controllers, because I can up the voltage and run different setups and haven't even begun to play with programming them etc....

 

[gwhy!1]

Lyen's controllers are partialy modified Infineon. He has done the hard parts like solder in the FETs and connects the programing cable to the board. The rest is up to the end user to beef up the traces and get the programming tuned for their application.

The Lyen edition controllers won't be of use to you unless you are trying to push your bike beyond it's design limits, and have the technical skills to do so.

I've got several Lyen controllers for my high performance rigs. But I also have a half dozen regular Infineon that do very well even when pushed beyond stated specs.

Em3 also do modded controllers for less money

 

[drsolly]

He has done the hard parts like solder in the FETs and connects the programing cable to the board.

The Infineon from em3ev also connects the programming cable, it's one of the cables that comes out of the controller.

 

[wineboyrider]

I am not trying to sell either one (don't have too). I don't own a em3v controller for the record, but lyen doesn't advertise or promote via website I think, because he is trying to sell to more informed offroad customers. :wink:
Doesn't want all the legal hassle of oops I hurt myself, which in this country seems to be a way of life nowadays.

 

[drsolly]

Thanks to everyone for the advice, it's been very helpful

 

[Punx0r]

My understanding is that Lyen editions have genuine, bonefide IRF FETS. I see the ones on EM3 claim the same - is this actually true?

Do the Lyen editions allow more flexibility in programming, or voltage limits etc? I see hints in this thread but would be nice to know for sure

 

[gwhy!1]

My understanding is that Lyen editions have genuine, bonefide IRF FETS. I see the ones on EM3 claim the same - is this actually true?

Do the Lyen editions allow more flexibility in programming, or voltage limits etc? I see hints in this thread but would be nice to know for sure

I know of 2 em3 controllers that are in use that have been programmed by myself that I can comment on, and as far as I can tell they are identical to the lyen controllers as regards programming. the only indication as to whether em3 use genuine fets is that neither of the 2 (12fet )controllers has popped and have been pushing 100A battery current @48v ( and the controllers dont get to hot ) so even if they are not genuine they are pretty good ( well good enough for me anyway ).

 

[alsmith]

I don't know about Infinons after sales technical support but Lyen is superb- no matter what the question.

 

[drsolly]

I just bougth two controllers and bits from em3ev and I did need some tech support. And they helped me with what I needed. But my needs are pretty simple; I'm not going to open up the controller and modify what's inside.

 

[gwhy!1]

Why didnt you just buy a modded controller to begin with?

 

[drsolly]

I think this gets back to my original question. What would be the benefit to me, of a modded controller (by which I mean, modded by Lyen) compared to an unmodded (an Infineon from em3ev)?

 

[gwhy!1]

I think this gets back to my original question. What would be the benefit to me, of a modded controller (by which I mean, modded by Lyen) compared to an unmodded (an Infineon from em3ev)?

Was the controller that you got for em3 a modded one?. If it was a modded one then there is no difference
A modded controller will have better fets than standard and better wire and a few other things.. have you got link to the one you bought?. It depends what you plan on doing with it will answer if it will be of benefit to have a modded controller.

 

[alsmith]

I think this gets back to my original question. What would be the benefit to me, of a modded controller (by which I mean, modded by Lyen) compared to an unmodded (an Infineon from em3ev)?

Which goes to the question 'what do you want from your bike?'

 

[teklektik]

I think this gets back to my original question. What would be the benefit to me, of a modded controller (by which I mean, modded by Lyen) compared to an unmodded (an Infineon from em3ev)?

Which goes to the question 'what do you want from your bike?'

Realize also that you are bantering around the term 'modded' when you really mean '100vFETs and caps'. EM3EV controllers have long been modded to run gear motors smoothly - which stock Infineons can't do. So your reference to an 'unmodded' EM3EV controller is really about a controller that actually *is* modded in a very important way.

The standard EM3EV controller uses 63v caps and 75v IRF3077 FETs which actually dissipate less heat that IRF 4110 FETs (lower Rds(on)). For a 48v system, Paul's choice for the standard controller configuration gives nicely matched current/voltage capability and with the lowest heat loss. It also comes with >11ga silicone wires for battery and phase.

On the other hand, if you want to smack the crap out of a DD motor with higher voltage, or run a gear motor at 60v with a little bigger margin of safety, then get a '100v' controller from either source - they are virtually identical (although the EM3EV controller has the larger gauge silicone wires).

As you can see from the Paul's controller selection for his kits, he has put some thought into putting together a quality product that will give satisfying results - even for the unknowledgeable. This is a full time business for him and he is continually looking at new products (new cell types, battery packaging options, enclosures, etc) to give us great build options. I buy from him because the quality and Support are outstanding and I know the bucks will help bring me some new product or option in near future.

 

[dogman dan]

I think for the Mac, the em3ev controller would be the choice. Paul has them dialed in for those motors real nice I hear.

When I bought three Lyens controllers, Paul was selling a more limited range of products. So 4 years ago, Lyens was Da Bomb.

Both are great vendors, selling solid product. It literally comes down to who you like best, or who is closer to your house once you take price out of the equation.

 

[drsolly]

I got one of these: http://em3ev.com/store/index.php?route=product/product&path=38&product_id=82
And one of these for a sensorless 250w motor: http://em3ev.com/store/index.php?route=product/product&path=38&product_id=136

They have 4110 fets.

I plan to use the 6-fet one with a 250 watt motor; it works fine. I plan to use the 12-fet one to experiment with in various bikes. I currently have it with a 250 watt sensored motor on a 20 inch wheel. That's also working fine.

What do I want from my bike? I mostly use it for geocaching. So I'm travelling for up to maybe 15-20 miles in one day, stopping every 300 yards or so. I'm going on some tarmac, some gravel and quite a lot of mud/grass/dirt. The mud/grass/dirt is often squishy, so uses a lot of power to get through. So I want some torque at fairly slow speeds. I don't often get above 20 km/hr,

The motors I'm currently using are all 24v (running at 8s, so that's 32v). I tried them at 36v, and wow! But I don't think I need that much speed, given what I'm using the bikes for. I think at 48v, the bike would be going too fast for me to be happy (especially over the very rough ground I often cover).


From what teklektik said, I chose the wrong controller? I should have gone with the IRF3077 FETs? I was assuming that because the 4110s could handle more voltage, they'd be worth the few extra dollars they cost.

I'm planning to get another controller to replace one of the wimpy ones I have in place on another bike; that's why I was wondering what the benefit to me of Lyen vs EM3EV would be.

But I take teklektik's point. If Lyen is only doing this for fun, and Paul is doing it as a business, then I do like the idea of buying from someone who has a real financial stake in giving a good product and good service (which isn't to put down Lyen's products or support, I've never bought from him).

Who else have people bought the Infineon controllers from, that they'd recommend?

 

[Drunkskunk]

.....
I plan to use the 6-fet one with a 250 watt motor; it works fine. I plan to use the 12-fet one to experiment with in various bikes. I currently have it with a 250 watt sensored motor on a 20 inch wheel. That's also working fine.

What do I want from my bike? I mostly use it for geocaching. So I'm travelling for up to maybe 15-20 miles in one day, stopping every 300 yards or so. I'm going on some tarmac, some gravel and quite a lot of mud/grass/dirt. The mud/grass/dirt is often squishy, so uses a lot of power to get through. So I want some torque at fairly slow speeds. I don't often get above 20 km/hr,

The motors I'm currently using are all 24v (running at 8s, so that's 32v). I tried them at 36v, and wow! But I don't think I need that much speed, given what I'm using the bikes for. I think at 48v, the bike would be going too fast for me to be happy (especially over the very rough ground I often cover).


From what teklektik said, I chose the wrong controller? I should have gone with the IRF3077 FETs? I was assuming that because the 4110s could handle more voltage, they'd be worth the few extra dollars they cost.

4110 FETS are only good if you're running with a peak voltage over 75 volts. Otherwise, 3077 FETS have a lower RDS, meaning they run cooler with less waste. More of your battery power gets to the motor with 3077s.

If all you are running is a little 250w motor at 24 volts, you really don't need a 12 FET controller at all. 6 FETs will work better for you. having extra FETs is just having more points of failure, more devices in the system eating power from your battery, and more weight for you to haul around all the time. If you want torque you need more voltage, and a motor big enough to handle it.

Since you're not looking to modify the controller, and you're not looking at pushing your motor to the bleeding edge of performance, then Lyen's controllers have no advantage for you. Paul sells good products. I wasn't aware he was adding programming cable connectors now. that just adds to the value.

 

[gwhy!1]

.....
I plan to use the 6-fet one with a 250 watt motor; it works fine. I plan to use the 12-fet one to experiment with in various bikes. I currently have it with a 250 watt sensored motor on a 20 inch wheel. That's also working fine.

What do I want from my bike? I mostly use it for geocaching. So I'm travelling for up to maybe 15-20 miles in one day, stopping every 300 yards or so. I'm going on some tarmac, some gravel and quite a lot of mud/grass/dirt. The mud/grass/dirt is often squishy, so uses a lot of power to get through. So I want some torque at fairly slow speeds. I don't often get above 20 km/hr,

The motors I'm currently using are all 24v (running at 8s, so that's 32v). I tried them at 36v, and wow! But I don't think I need that much speed, given what I'm using the bikes for. I think at 48v, the bike would be going too fast for me to be happy (especially over the very rough ground I often cover).


From what teklektik said, I chose the wrong controller? I should have gone with the IRF3077 FETs? I was assuming that because the 4110s could handle more voltage, they'd be worth the few extra dollars they cost.

4110 FETS are only good if you're running with a peak voltage over 75 volts. Otherwise, 3077 FETS have a lower RDS, meaning they run cooler with less waste. More of your battery power gets to the motor with 3077s.

If all you are running is a little 250w motor at 24 volts, you really don't need a 12 FET controller at all. 6 FETs will work better for you. having extra FETs is just having more points of failure, more devices in the system eating power from your battery, and more weight for you to haul around all the time. If you want torque you need more voltage, and a motor big enough to handle it.

Since you're not looking to modify the controller, and you're not looking at pushing your motor to the bleeding edge of performance, then Lyen's controllers have no advantage for you. Paul sells good products. I wasn't aware he was adding programming cable connectors now. that just adds to the value.

more current for more torque not voltage.. but yes, your motor may not be able to handle much more current.

if you have a controller with 4110's then your have a moddified controller , so basically the same as lyen sells, but with better wires.
but in your case you would have been better of with 3077's as you will not want to be running more voltage than 50v, the 3077's can handle nearlly twice the current than the 4110's but the 3077's are only rated at 75v whereas the 4110's are rated at 100v

 

[hjns]

I plan to use the 6-fet one with a 250 watt motor; it works fine. I plan to use the 12-fet one to experiment with in various bikes. I currently have it with a 250 watt sensored motor on a 20 inch wheel. That's also working fine.

What do I want from my bike? I mostly use it for geocaching. So I'm travelling for up to maybe 15-20 miles in one day, stopping every 300 yards or so. I'm going on some tarmac, some gravel and quite a lot of mud/grass/dirt. The mud/grass/dirt is often squishy, so uses a lot of power to get through. So I want some torque at fairly slow speeds. I don't often get above 20 km/hr,

The motors I'm currently using are all 24v (running at 8s, so that's 32v). I tried them at 36v, and wow! But I don't think I need that much speed, given what I'm using the bikes for. I think at 48v, the bike would be going too fast for me to be happy (especially over the very rough ground I often cover).

With what you describe above, you definitely do NOT need a Lyen controller. I just ordered a 12FET3077 controller with a 6T mac from Paul at EM3EV, and I intend to run it at 50V (58V HoC) 40A max (2kW max). This controller is more than capable to do so, it is the motor that is the weak link.

Now I also have several Lyen controllers, and I got them because I really wanted to go to higher power levels. My 2 Lyen 12FET4115s have moved my rear Clyte HT3525 DD and front 9C10 DD at 126V 50A (>6kW) each, my Lyen 18FET4110 has moved my Cromotor at 84V 100A (>8kW), and my Lyen sensorless 6FET4110 has moved my Clyte HT3525 DD at 84V 20A (1.6kW). Just to give you some perspective.

I also got some controllers from Methods (Infineon based). Very happy with the 12FET4110, and extremely happy with the 24FET4110 (although never used properly). Furthermore, I have a 24FET4115 from Zombiess. Also never used properly, so I cannot report on my happiness of how they work. I am happy to have them though.... fantasizing of the moment I am going to put them to use

 

[drsolly]

Here's the bike I'm working on at the moment.

The purpose of this bike is geocaching; that means I'll be going over all kinds of terrain, from soft squishy grass and mud, all the way up to tarmac. But mostly grass. So I need torque, rather than speed. Foldability is a very big plus, it means I can carry it in the car to where I'm going to be geocaching, and also lets me get past some obstacles without needing to lift the bike. The motor is a rear wheel gears hub, 250 watts. The frame is aluminium. The controller is sitting on the back rack, and the panniers hold the batteries; that means I can very quickly remove the weight of the batteries when I need to lift the bike over an obstacle. The controller there is a 12 fet 4110 infineon, but that's temporary, so I could get a feel for what's what. The batteries are 8s Lipo (Hobbyking 20C hardpack 4s, two of them in series).

The ugly grey wires are going from the battery to a Turnigy 7-in-1 meter and back to the motor, so I can watch the amps as I test drive. In the final version, they won't be there. They're 4 sq mm, which is about equal to 11AWG.

Here's the view from the saddle

Link in case the image is truncatedhttp://4.bp.blogspot.com/-TvmeiMoBWb8/UxjhflDwoDI/AAAAAAAABHc/TsuE_H-ny94/s1600/bike2.jpg

From left to right; bell/compass, three-speed switch, mounting bar for PDA/GPS, the wattmeter (which won't be there for the final version), speedometer, voltmeter, on.off switch, gear changer.

So I took it up a local hill while watching the amps, and it was pulling 40 amps, continuously (I'd programmed the controller to allow a generous number of amps), and after several dozen yards, everything cut out. That turned out to be a wiring fault. My mistake, I'd wired this up originally on the assumption that it would pull 10 maps, 15 at most. 40 was just too much. I've replaced the low-amp wiring with something a *lot* more substantial, the same 4 sq mm, which will certainly take 40 amps, and would probably take 100.

I'm getting a very satisfactory level of torque (and the fact that the wheels are 20 inches must help that), so I probably won't want to run this at more than 12s - probably I'll be happy with 8s.

From the advice I'd had on this thread, I should go with a controller that uses 3077 fets. But the 6-fet controller, according the the specs here:

http://em3ev.com/store/index.php?route=product/product&path=38&product_id=77

has a 25A current limit. Since my experimentation revealed that the bike (when going up a steep hill) will want 40 amps, does that mean that I want this 12 fet controller

http://em3ev.com/store/index.php?route=product/product&path=38&product_id=81

which has a 40A current limit?

Some background. I've been ebiking for about six years now. I have four other e-bikes.

Bike.1 is the one I'm currently using for geocaching,
Bike.2 has a 250 watt front geared hub, and the controller on that one is going to be replaced with an Infineon.
Bike.3 I built from an Everest folder, that has a sensorless motor, so I'm using the sensorless 6 fet controller, Really, I only built it because I had a spare motor, a spare folding bike, and it seemed a shame not to put them together; it was also my first major learning exercise.
Bike.4 is the one pictured above.
Bike.5 is currently out of action; it has a 36 volt front hub motor, the battery is weakened by extreme old age, and I will eventually replace the controller and use the Hobbyking Lipos on that. Bike.5 isn't a folder, all the others are.

So, my thinking now is to get the 12 fet 3077 controller, because it allows 40 amps. Does that sound right to people?

 

[teklektik]

So - you are pumping 8 x 3.8v x 40A = 1216W through a 250W gear motor?
Maybe you should tack a MAC 12T onto your next EM3EV controller order....

 

[gwhy!1]

So - you are pumping 8 x 3.8v x 40A = 1216W through a 250W gear motor?
Maybe you should tack a MAC 12T onto your next EM3EV controller order....

my first hub bike/daily ride 20" bike had a 200W geared hub motor, I was pushing 2kw without any issues except eventually when the gears packed in , but the motor it self coped fine. I had 3 of these small hub motors and the other 2 motors where fitted to bmx bikes for friends and was abused even more than I abused mine and all running upto 2kw, the funny thing was the gears packed up in all 3 motors within a month of each other but this was after around 12 months of abuse.