Bigwheel
1 kW
Chalo said:
Ha Chalo as you might tell from my join date not surprised, just disappointed once again
If you see my old buddy Willits wheeling around down there give him a "hey" for me.
'lightest.bike' 1.7kg 1000w mid drive
- Thread starter Grantmac
- Start date
Ha Chalo as you might tell from my join date not surprised, just disappointed once again
If you see my old buddy Willits wheeling around down there give him a "hey" for me.
I'm not shocked to see production delays in the world of trade battles with China, metals pricing and availability going haywire, and covid-19 disruption of the economy.
I'm willing to trust that the team can deliver something. But not on time.
I'm willing to trust that the team can deliver something. But not on time.
Grantmac
10 kW
Honestly you can either pick between fast-ish production with the first units being not fully developed (CYC) or a much slower development with what are hopefully very refined systems (Lightest).
Can I ask a couple of questions about the bottom bracket requirements for this conversion. I understand that if someone has a 68/73mm pressed fit 30 BB (mated to a Shimano HollowtechII crankset), you can get an FSA PF to threaded BB conversion. That supposedly does fine for a Bafang BSSxx. But will that still work for this particular crankset and the rest of the kit? Or do you have to start out with an square-taper BB axle and not hollowtech / PF BB? And if the latter, then why in the world would they require an older heavier square-taper setup when they are trying to get the e-conversion as light as possible? Maybe this conversion is just for gravel / level hardpack and not actual all-mountain biking? If yes, then it looks like I'll be doing the Bafang conversion, even if it is several lbs more.
neptronix said:
Yes but where do you put the controller and all of its hydra monstrosity of wires. I like hub drives too but the external controller is a real pain to deal with, even on a hardtail with a large surface area besides the battery on the downtube. And most of the hub drives with an integrated controller (ex. E-Bikeling) are direct drives with freewheels. No thanks. Cassette or nothing. By the way, maybe you should not be surprised more people are not doing this particular drive when Luna Cycles posts on their webpage:
Note: This product has been archived and is unlikely to be restocked. For some of our in stock motors check out our mid drive kit section
lol. I guess that's a not so subtle 'redirect' to mid-drives, as in hub drives are not selling well, period. Don't get me wrong, I like hub drives. It's just that they don't check some of the important boxes I need on a relatively lightweight mountain bike conversion.
Chalo
100 TW
richj8990 said:
Really? Seems pretty arbitrary to me, especially considering how effective mid drives are at wrecking freehub bodies.
https://www.sunrace.com/en/products/freewheels-e-bike
Freewheel ratchets naturally hold up better because they're bigger on the inside diameter than cassette freehubs are on the outside diameter.
markz
100 TW
Most people just buy whatever the local bicycle store is selling but its good, gets people out riding on an ebike that wouldnt normally be out riding. Like an old guy I saw a few days ago riding a store bought Townie ebike with a hub and rear rack battery.
Most people do not need a mid drive, but they buy them anyways. Its very rare I see anyone riding an ebike that looks to be a technical trail rider, most are casually dressed, older folk which would mean all they require is the cheapest ebikes the store sells, hubs.
Most people do not need a mid drive, but they buy them anyways. Its very rare I see anyone riding an ebike that looks to be a technical trail rider, most are casually dressed, older folk which would mean all they require is the cheapest ebikes the store sells, hubs.
Chalo said:
Yes, I unfortunately know about freewheels...I've broken two of the axles attached to them. And I don't even ride that hard. It appears that this forum is more for pavement riding, and that's great, but some of us need an electric setup that will actually hold up offroad. It's not that I would ride an e-bike offroad as hard as I do my other two 'acoustic' bikes, even though I'm not taking big jumps with those or anything either, I would ride the future e-bike more gingerly like I do my current front-hub drive one. Just looking for different options to take the bike down way, way below the current 57 lbs that this one is. And without a freewheel. I don't mind being eccentric out there, but freewheels don't belong on mountain bikes, the industry learned that over a decade ago. Yes, there still are some $300 Walmart bikes that have freewheels on them. But as I've mentioned on another forum, I did the math and a 3x8 cassette-based drivetrain costs about $8-10 USD more to put on the bike compared with 3x7 ---same everything but cassette and freehub. Freehub-based wheel costs a tiny bit more than a solid threaded hub wheel, 8-speed cassette LESS money than a freewheel. There is no excuse to keep putting freewheels on bikes...at all.
"Freewheel ratchets naturally hold up better"? Let's talk about the axles (see above about them failing, and case closed) and range of a freewheel vs. cassette. The Sunrace 11-32t 7 or 8 speed freewheel as far as I know has been discontinued. Which means the most range I've seen from them (or any other major manufacturer that still even bothers to make freewheels) is 11-30t. Compare that with a modern cassette, which typically has a range, depending on if it's XD or not, of 11-42 to 11-52, or 10-50/51/52, sometimes 9/46 (a newer Chinese one has 9-50 but there are still technical 'beta release' problems with it). Translation: a cassette typically has up to 60% more range than a freewheel assuming a single chainring up front. No broken axles, 60% more range. Win...win.
11-30t with a single chainring is absolutely horrible range offroad, especially with an e-bike. For climbing a 10%+ grade, even with electric power I need something under a 1:1 ratio, preferably closer to 0.7 ratio as in 36t front, 52t rear with a 1x chainring. That will successfully climb a 12-13% grade that has loose, rocky stuff. Even climbing with an 'inferior' front-hub drive, not to mention what a mid-drive could do with that ratio. What chainring size would be needed if the freewheel was 30t in the granny gear? 22t. 22t is fine for a triple chainring. It's not fine for a single chainring.
So you guys can keep riding freewheels on pavement, that's fine with me. I learned my lesson with them offroad, and no amount of 'ratchet' discussion is going to change my mind about them. Maybe MS-DOS still has a few advantages over Windows 10 but would you really go back to MS-DOS? Cassettes are much easier to work with, you can drill into them and make different gear ratios, and their hubs are much more sturdy than a freewheel axle.
Chalo
100 TW
richj8990 said:
That's not a problem with freewheels; it's a problem with poorly designed and manufactured axles. You can put a 19mm axle through a multi-speed freewheel. Can you do that with a cassette freehub? No, you can't. Just because all you've tried is cheap crappy hubs doesn't mean that's what everyone else has to do.
It should go without saying that hub motors don't have 10mm threaded axles, even if they have freewheels. I don't think I've seen one smaller than 15mm diameter except on a cassette model. So your concern about breaking axles because they're freewheel hubs doesn't apply to them. It's cassette hub motors that have thinner axles, because they have to pass through a freehub body that limits their size.
One of my e-bikes has a 13-34 7-speed freewheel and a hub with an axle 17mm in diameter at the thinnest part. Do you think you would break an axle like that?
I don't have pictures of that hub disassembled, but I have some of a similar hub with a 15mm axle I made:
Using a freewheel allows me to have both a stronger axle and a stronger ratchet than I could have with a cassette hub. Now that Sunrace makes high quality freewheels with 8, 9, and 10 speeds, it's only manufacturers' laziness and buyers' lack of imagination that keeps freewheels from being the default for mid drive e-bikes. The ironic thing is that it's easier and cheaper to manufacture a big axle freewheel hub than it is to make a cassette hub. You'd think Chinese manufacturers would be all over it.
Ishikawa
10 W
[/quote]
I don't have pictures of that hub disassembled, but I have some of a similar hub with a 15mm axle I made:
IMG_20180619_175010.jpg
IMG_20180619_174927.jpg
IMG_20180619_174814.jpg
Using a freewheel allows me to have both a stronger axle and a stronger ratchet than I could have with a cassette hub. Now that Sunrace makes high quality freewheels with 8, 9, and 10 speeds, it's only manufacturers' laziness and buyers' lack of imagination that keeps freewheels from being the default for mid drive e-bikes. The ironic thing is that it's easier and cheaper to manufacture a big axle freewheel hub than it is to make a cassette hub. You'd think Chinese manufacturers would be all over it.
[/quote]
What is the number of the bearing in the hub? I have a bit similar set up but biggest bearing I can fit in the hub is 6200 which is 30od x 10id because the od have to be smaller than 1 3/8" (FW thread). In order to have 15mm id, you have to go with 6202 which have 35od that does not fit in the hub (35mm > 1 3/8")
In my case, I use 6200 and 10mm axle without any problem but if I can use bigger axle, I would like to upgrade.
I don't have pictures of that hub disassembled, but I have some of a similar hub with a 15mm axle I made:
IMG_20180619_175010.jpg
IMG_20180619_174927.jpg
IMG_20180619_174814.jpg
Using a freewheel allows me to have both a stronger axle and a stronger ratchet than I could have with a cassette hub. Now that Sunrace makes high quality freewheels with 8, 9, and 10 speeds, it's only manufacturers' laziness and buyers' lack of imagination that keeps freewheels from being the default for mid drive e-bikes. The ironic thing is that it's easier and cheaper to manufacture a big axle freewheel hub than it is to make a cassette hub. You'd think Chinese manufacturers would be all over it.
[/quote]
What is the number of the bearing in the hub? I have a bit similar set up but biggest bearing I can fit in the hub is 6200 which is 30od x 10id because the od have to be smaller than 1 3/8" (FW thread). In order to have 15mm id, you have to go with 6202 which have 35od that does not fit in the hub (35mm > 1 3/8")
In my case, I use 6200 and 10mm axle without any problem but if I can use bigger axle, I would like to upgrade.
Chalo
100 TW
Ishikawa said:
The bearings that came in the hub are 6902. Those are 28mm in outside diameter. You can't easily use those in your hub, but you can use 6903, with a 17mm bore. 6903 bearings are 2mm narrower than 6200, so you need to take this into account when setting up your axle spacing.
Chalo
100 TW
2old said:
The idea is sound, but that's a DNP freewheel which is known to be an unreliable low quality part. It would probably be fine to use on a hub motor bike where the rider is pedaling along with the motor, but I would avoid it for a mid drive with the motors power fed through the bike's gears.
dnp is indeed garbage. That amazon listing shows how horrible product ratings are gamed.
Mine was not lubricated from the factory and was lubricated by the seller because they knew of this fault. It still dumped it's grease and started making mechanical death sounds very quickly. When it spun, it looked like it wasn't properly radially centered from the factory.
Unless something has changed in 7 years, i would consider it a 'freewheel shaped object'.
Mine was not lubricated from the factory and was lubricated by the seller because they knew of this fault. It still dumped it's grease and started making mechanical death sounds very quickly. When it spun, it looked like it wasn't properly radially centered from the factory.
Unless something has changed in 7 years, i would consider it a 'freewheel shaped object'.
The DNP on my 1000w, 48V rear hub system has performed flawlessly for six years. What really hasn't changed in seven years is real experience with a product being dismissed by innuendo from individuals with no direct knowledge of a product.
Ishikawa
10 W
Chalo said:
Thanks for the info. I ordered the bearings and will try how it goes.
Ishikawa
10 W
2old said:
Are you using the DNP FW on direct drive hub motor? or mid drive?
I have used DNP 7sp FW with direct drive hub motor, also with mid drive as well.
With DD, the FW did worked ok because not much torque went through the FW, but it is a totally different story with mid drive. The FW went loose in 2 days. I took it out to find out what's happened. The bearing was shot and cogs were loose. That's my experience with DNP FW. So, you can not compare an apple and orange. it is how you use it. IMHO, DNP FW is for extremely light duty only. And that is not an innuendo or lack of knowledge. I have dozen of brand new DNP FW I can sell if you are interested.
markz
100 TW
Shimano is a solid brand that I would trust
Shimano is a major brand that I wouldnt mind paying extra for
When it comes to rear gears and ebikes then theres no need to pay extra for more gears and the price jump is quite a bit when I looked at 11 and 12 speed, maybe 10 speed is different
7/8/9 speed rear gears are cheap even if you go with Shimano
Shimano is a major brand that I wouldnt mind paying extra for
When it comes to rear gears and ebikes then theres no need to pay extra for more gears and the price jump is quite a bit when I looked at 11 and 12 speed, maybe 10 speed is different
7/8/9 speed rear gears are cheap even if you go with Shimano
It's possible they'll stop manufacturing them. it's the hub motor users that'll be crying.
When all you have is a 14T lower cog freewheel, there are chainrings that go up to 63T that can be used. Certainly enough room to adjust the gearing ratio for a ~1kw mid drive such as the one we're discussing, thankfully.
When all you have is a 14T lower cog freewheel, there are chainrings that go up to 63T that can be used. Certainly enough room to adjust the gearing ratio for a ~1kw mid drive such as the one we're discussing, thankfully.
Grantmac
10 kW
Trials cranks are available in modern splines including some PF bottom brackets and a few people have made adapters to mount splined freewheels on DM cranks.
It's not rocket surgery.
It's not rocket surgery.
Chalo
100 TW
2old said:
It disappointed me greatly when Shimano came out with an unprecedented and super high quality 11-34t freewheel (plus an 11-28t version), then discontinued them almost as soon as they were in wide circulation. I have to suspect that they knew a better freewheel with 11t high gear would take away at least some cassette hub sales, and allow clever hub manufacturers to demonstrate that cassette hubs are inherently more design limited than freewheel hubs.
https://www.sheldonbrown.com/mega7/
Now they've doubled down with through-axle cassette hubs that are more fragile, more proprietary, more expensive, and much less future-proof than freewheels or Hyperglide cassette hubs. No thanks. I already had enough reasons to purchase elsewhere, but this is another one.
Similar threads
