LightningRods mid drive kit

[notger]

hi

i don't know how it happened but i managed to destroy one hall sonsor of the stock gng motor.

so my kelly controller tells me "hall error"
I also measured it and one hall really didn't work.

Because of my inpatience i just took a hall sonsor i had at home, it was a linear SS495A so it delivers more voltage if the magnetic field gets stronger, it hought this might work because of the spinning speed---> but it does not i just get about 3,8volt instead of the 4,8 volts from the other two halls.

did anyone of you already change the hall sensors of the motor an can tell me some type classification?

unipolar? or bipolar?

these are hall sensor wich would be availeable in a shop near me (the last code is the housing-design)
SS443A - unipolar - SIP
H501 - unipolar - TO 92 UA

my guess is unipolar, but these are other hall sensor this shop could provide
SS41 - bipolar - SIP
SS411A - bipolar - SIP
SS466A - latching - SIP
TLE 4905 L,TLE 4935 L,TLE 4945 L - for changing magnetic fields,loaded-Version - PSSO 3-2

thanks

gernot

 

[ten.ring]

looks like even with a low gear the gng electric motor is not going to be efficient on a bike going at 5mph. I am amazed that one is better off doing 20mph than 5mph and by how very much. I figured with a 3sp in 1st gear there would be some advantage and give an increase in range over a taller gear. but it looks like if you need to travel at 10mph the only way to get further on a charge is a smaller motor.

so the big-block would be way worse at low speed.

SO electric motors need to have an adequate load on them AND be in a specific rpm range to convert battery power to work rather than to thermal energy.

I knew this to be true I just had NO IDEA how bad it was.

 

[turbo1889]

Yes, actual data is much better.

I did make three strong disclaimers before I posted that info one of which specifically explained that the low speed range numbers were flawed because I had introduced a "cheat factor" into the range calculation formula that assumes no one has the self control to maintain less then 1/4 throttle going slow over long distance and that running a big motor very slow at less then 1/4 throttle leads to exponential inefficiency. This is not always true in real life. Also my spreadsheet is designed to work only within the human pedal power cadence range and doesn't consider situations where you are spinning the crank faster then you can effectively pedal along with.

Long story short there are defiantly some holes in the results some big enough to drive an e-bike through if you don't build your e-bikes and ride them like I do. I worked up the spreadsheet using an electric motor simulator sub-program spreadsheet I got from someone else where he was just using it to graph theoretical motor power and efficiency curves and I added in everything else that shows what happens when you use such a motor to power an e-bike.

I'm work on a spreadsheet that will not have so many holes in it and will cover e-bike mid-drives built and ridden in different ways then how I personally do it. When I build and e-bike I always try to closely match the motor and the human pedal power so the motors maximum power and efficiency sweet points are in a comfortable human pedal cadence range and the motors free spinning no load speed is not higher then the human free spinning no load cadence speed (which I assume is about or just over 120 RPM pedal cadence) so the rider can always pedal along with the motor. I then assume the rider is going to ride like I do and pedal along with the motor almost all the time and the only reason they slow down is if they have to in order to climb a hill or such, which is how I ride. You go outside those parameters and the performance graphs my spreadsheet currently produces ain't going to be even close.

I'm working on patching the holes in the form of a new spreadsheet with covers a broader range of applications and riding styles without so many holes in it and when I do I may share it as an attached file to a post in this thread or another one but until then I don't feel comfortable sharing it. I've got a PM asking about that and that is my answer until I broaden the application and patch the holes in it that are created by making certain assumptions about how the build is set-up and ridden it would create too many problems with people just punching numbers into it not knowing the background formulas used in it and the assumptions that are made.

 

[spinningmagnets]

I appreciate the graphs you posted, and i feel they will prove to be very helpful. I hope I didn't sound too critical, but web-tracking shows there are many more lurkers than posters, and I wanted to make sure the good points about mid-drive efficiencies were also posted nearby...

 

[ten.ring]

I do not think "the holes in your spread sheet" made the entire difference in efficiency between a loaded motor and an unloaded motor, it may be exaggerated some but not likely all that much. electric motors do have a range of peak efficiency, load AND rpm are both part of that. at 60% of no load rpm, with a light load or a heavy load they are outside of that window of peak efficiency. on a 3% grade at 10mph the right gear is going to increase efficiency more than it would on level ground at 10mph. because the load of the climb will help get both the load and rpm in harmony. this aint a perfect world there are no perfect answers only honest attempts !!.

I read your disclaimers and I took them into account. I think your numbers are close for a peddling rider and therefore at least give good insight for design considerations. you are clearly a respectable technical type who dose not jump before looking.

 

[christerljung]

bad thing is that most graphs end at very low power... the most reason why i never indented to invest in this (GNG) drive... i guess it will get lossy well below <2kW even at 48V. Nothing real special...you'd need 72V but can't pedal any more so..wtf? i think that my bafangs really can do better i have no proof..we really need dyno tests, at best on the same dyno with the same controller.

What we really need are torque mode throttle controllers with units like this.. everything else really is a waste of time.. lightningrods, please offer us such a unit with torque mode controller! it is really worth it i believe

Magura 5k throttle with with resistors added in the ends gives a really nice power regulation.
The GNG in combination with Infineon/Lyen controller and 100volt you will have +4kw at the twist of your hand.
Long comfortable controlled wheelies have never been easier.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QsOJEShqjIw

 

[LightningRods]

Magura 5k throttle with with resistors added in the ends gives a really nice power regulation.
The GNG in combination with Infineon/Lyen controller and 100volt you will have +4kw at the twist of your hand.
Long comfortable controlled wheelies have never been easier.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QsOJEShqjIw

Looks pretty controlled to me. Thanks Christer.

 

[windtrader]

That seems to be where I am ending up too. 100V at 30 amps through a Lyen 12FET controller. Multiple gearing to be determined.

That is 30amps continuous. peak who knows - too much??

 

[christerljung]

That seems to be where I am ending up too. 100V at 30 amps through a Lyen 12FET controller. Multiple gearing to be determined.

That is 30amps continuous. peak who knows - too much??

It´s a good idea to set the phase-amps about 40a at 100v. Power get much more controllable compared to the same wattage with higher amps and lower voltage.

 

[windtrader]

That seems to be where I am ending up too. 100V at 30 amps through a Lyen 12FET controller. Multiple gearing to be determined.

That is 30amps continuous. peak who knows - too much??

It´s a good idea to set the phase-amps about 40a at 100v. Power get much more controllable compared to the same wattage with higher amps and lower voltage.

The general wisdom on this kit is to limit amps to 30.

 

[Wishes]

That seems to be where I am ending up too. 100V at 30 amps through a Lyen 12FET controller. Multiple gearing to be determined.

That is 30amps continuous. peak who knows - too much??

It´s a good idea to set the phase-amps about 40a at 100v. Power get much more controllable compared to the same wattage with higher amps and lower voltage.

The general wisdom on this kit is to limit amps to 30.

30 amps is conservative. If you are going to go 100v, you might as well push it to 40 amps. It can handle that fine, and you never end up sustaining that kind of amps while riding. You only use short bursts of it.

 

[windtrader]

30 amps is conservative. If you are going to go 100v, you might as well push it to 40 amps. It can handle that fine, and you never end up sustaining that kind of amps while riding. You only use short bursts of it.

Well that is not what is being advised here for my situation. I'm planning on needing 20-30 amps (2000-3000 watts) continuous for 5-10 minutes.

The attached elevation map is for the mid level route over the hill. One other one is several hundred feet steeper grade.

 

[PRW]

my humble opinion:
examples/ suggestions of complete systems could be put somewhere near the head page, e.g.:
Example A: >3000W: left hand drive, no gears: replacment wheel xxx with LH cog, mounting kit YYYY, battery suitable ZZZ. Store contacts as follows....
Example B: 1000W to 3000W: IGH or 7 speed, etc, etc

These are just examples - so that normal people who are looking at this as an alternative don't have to read through pages and pages of technical jargon (simple to those who wrote it), get bored and confused, and end up with a hub motor, even though they would like a mid-drive. If however the intention is that this kit is for only those who know what they doing, ignore all of the above.

Those people who are more technically capable will do what they want anyway, so this is just to make it as idiot-proof (referring to me, before anyone takes offense) as possible.

 

[LightningRods]

If that is possible I'd really appreciate it. I was hoping to keep this thread more on topic than the old GNG thread so that readers could find information related to my mid drive kit without digging through pages and pages of abstract and largely unrelated discourse. I love E-S but if I had a criticism it's that there is too much talk and too little action.

 

[windtrader]

Great idea. What would really help is having some build guidelines right up front. A LOT of the chatter here is all about what works with the kit. I think a lot of folks would be quite pleased to see something about recommended ranges and limits of the kit. Simple things such as recommended voltage-amperage combinations. Limits such as 30 amps continuous. It took a lot of messages to cull this out. The thing about chains is related to torque rating of the kit. If we have a table showing torque output, then the chat about chains is done as we then simply source chains that can stand up to what the kit is delivering. I hope this helps get the thread back on track. Thanks

 

[nukezero]

I'm interested in learning about the lightning rod GNG kit. Can someone tell me if this motor is capable of sustaining 30MPH on a 48/11T cog setup? And whether or not the motor will overheat? Secondly, is 48V enough or would I need to run it at 60V or 72V?

Thanks

 

[teslanv]

I'm interested in learning about the lightning rod GNG kit. Can someone tell me if this motor is capable of sustaining 30MPH on a 48/11T cog setup? And whether or not the motor will overheat? Secondly, is 48V enough or would I need to run it at 60V or 72V?

Thanks

NZ,
You are on the right track. By all accounts, Lightningrod's Kit appears to blow away the BBS02, power wise. You will also have the benefit of a programmable controller (if purchased through Lyen, and built specifically for LR's kit) and the ability to run it at higher voltage and current. (Up to a reported 4000W) If you are concerned about the BBS02 750W kit being able to sustain your desired 30 mph speed, this kit is undoubtedly capable with the right combination of battery and controller programming. Plus, it just looks bad ass.

 

[LightningRods]

30 mph is a very modest speed for this motor at 48V. If you keep the stock reduction of about 21:1 overall you should have a top speed in the high 30s @ 48V. At these performance levels the motor barely gets warm unless you are pulling a long steep hill. It doesn't sound like you need more than 48V.

 

[Lenk42602]

If that is possible I'd really appreciate it. I was hoping to keep this thread more on topic than the old GNG thread so that readers could find information related to my mid drive kit without digging through pages and pages of abstract and largely unrelated discourse. I love E-S but if I had a criticism it's that there is too much talk and too little action.

Got it Done Mike.

So I have ordered a kit - here's the bike:


New 52v 12.5 ah pack showed up yesterday. Fun!

 

[LightningRods]

Another day in the life of a small business. I heard from my customs broker today:

"Hi Michael,
Quick update - the entire container (not just your cargo) was examined by Customs in Los Angeles. The call this a CET exam - conducted by the Contraband Enforcement Team. The exam finished today. Now we wait for the container to be reloaded and moved the LA warehouse for unloading and transfer to a truck bound for Portland. At this point we are probably a week delayed. I would place ETA to Portland on 4/29. But I'll keep checking to see if it makes it earlier."

*****************************************
Sorry for the delay. I was told the 20th, then the 10th, then the 15th (yesterday) and now the 29th. I'll keep updating everyone waiting for motors as I know more.

"Time of your life, eh kid?"

 

[LightningRods]

Got it Done Mike.

So I have ordered a kit - here's the bike:

New 52v 12.5 ah pack showed up yesterday. Fun!

Thanks for moving that discussion to a more appropriate home, Len. Some good stuff in there but too much off topic banter.

As long as the spread between the drives is wide enough to clear your battery box it should work out fantastic! Thanks for buying one of my kits.

 

[tomjasz]

Got it Done Mike.

So I have ordered a kit - here's the bike:


New 52v 12.5 ah pack showed up yesterday. Fun!

Nice bike! Who is the frame builder? I'm watching this thread with enthusiasm for the alternative.

 

[Lenk42602]

"As long as the spread between the drives is wide enough to clear your battery box it should work out fantastic"

Worst case scenario is that I will have to lower the upper mount off the down tube a bit to clear the battery box from the belt side upper pulley. Based on the dimensions you supplied me, it is going to be very close with no modifications.

BTW, you may want to post those images you sent to me in order to give an idea of relative size for others contemplating space requirements.

Nice bike! Who is the frame builder? I'm watching this thread with enthusiasm for the alternative.

I built the frame. Because it turned out better than anticipated, I am putting a better than originally anticipated drive system on it....

Its in the ebike photos and videos page called the Lead Sled....


Len

 

[nukezero]

I'm interested in learning about the lightning rod GNG kit. Can someone tell me if this motor is capable of sustaining 30MPH on a 48/11T cog setup? And whether or not the motor will overheat? Secondly, is 48V enough or would I need to run it at 60V or 72V?

Thanks

NZ,
You are on the right track. By all accounts, Lightningrod's Kit appears to blow away the BBS02, power wise. You will also have the benefit of a programmable controller (if purchased through Lyen, and built specifically for LR's kit) and the ability to run it at higher voltage and current. (Up to a reported 4000W) If you are concerned about the BBS02 750W kit being able to sustain your desired 30 mph speed, this kit is undoubtedly capable with the right combination of battery and controller programming. Plus, it just looks bad ass.

30 mph is a very modest speed for this motor at 48V. If you keep the stock reduction of about 21:1 overall you should have a top speed in the high 30s @ 48V. At these performance levels the motor barely gets warm unless you are pulling a long steep hill. It doesn't sound like you need more than 48V.

Wow, thanks!

1. Do you guys think this motor is safe with any kind of Internal Gear Hub like the Shimano Nexus or perhaps the Nuvinci's ?? I don't want to blow the IGH.

2. What size bottom bracket is this compatible with? 68mm, 73mm? Or any?

3. LightningRods - what is the available of the kits and where are you located? What kind of 48v Lyen controller should I get ? How many Fets.?

4. I sort of miss my old Electra Townie. It has a long fat ass chain stay. I think it could be perfect for this. Are there any concerns to putting the LR kit on this bike? Please advise. I'm thinking about buying one but with a IGH.

5. LightningRods - how much for the kit shipped to CA, 92620 ? thanks
Thanks

 

[tomjasz]

4. I sort of miss my old Electra Townie. It has a long fat ass chain stay. I think it could be perfect for this. Are there any concerns to putting the LR kit on this bike? Please advise. I'm thinking about buying one but with a IGH.

My thoughts exactly. I've been looking for that Townie for weeks. I've made up my mind, there will be a workable IGH with an LR in my future. I have a lot to learn about frames first. A soft tail townie? If soft tail is the right nomenclature for a shock mount rear wheel? I know the upright position produces more drag but, meh, I like the position.