Lipo vs Lion

[DogDipstick]

Multistars are used by many ebkers for multiple reasons, value, consistency , long life, ease of pack build, etc etc .
I have used various other cells for Ebikes , Lipo, Lifepo4, Lico, !8650, etc etc.....each have their pro and cons, but Multistars are the best value, readily available, go to solution for many reasons.

I wholeheartedly disagree, in my opinion, based on some experience. You are entitled to yours. Thankyou for expressing it.

 

[flat tire]

I wholeheartedly disagree, in my opinion, based on some experience. You are entitled to yours. Thankyou for expressing it.

So for a user who wants hobby packs, who doesn't need high C rate, and wants the best value high energy density (not power density) what if not multistar would you recommend?

 

[DogDipstick]

HRB.

https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=HRB+lipo

 

[Hillhater]

You seem fixated on high Crate, high cost, low capacity, products.
They are no comparison to the 16/20Ah multistars .
JMHO.

 

[John in CR]

I can't believe anyone is still using any of those overpriced, under-performing, short life fire blocks also called RC lipo. Based on the number of known house fires I can pretty much guarantee at least one forum member has lost his life to that crap, yet people who don't know any better continue to talk it up as if was something good.

 

[Hillhater]

Whilst acknowledging the risk of lipo and any other high energy source (fuel cans, gas cylinders , etc ?)..
... what battery system might you suggest then John ?
Maybe some of those 18650s that burnt up in Laptops and ballance boards , Teslas, etc, ??

 

[John in CR]

I use only automotive grade cells now and for the past several years. I've never paid more than 20cents/wh (often much less). They stay so well balanced that being my own BMS checking balance a few times a year is sufficient. Charger failures haven't caused one to light up. If you use conservative charge cutoffs they show almost no degradation, which is how the car companies can give 8-10yr warrantees. Many have extremely high C rates as displayed by less voltage sag than even the highest rated RC Lipo. They're over-engineered for our LEV use. No I haven't touched an 18650 in many years.

 

[DogDipstick]

I use only automotive grade cells now and for the past several years. I've never paid more than 20cents/wh (often much less). They stay so well balanced that being my own BMS checking balance a few times a year is sufficient. Charger failures haven't caused one to light up. If you use conservative charge cutoffs they show almost no degradation, which is how the car companies can give 8-10yr warrantees. Many have extremely high C rates as displayed by less voltage sag than even the highest rated RC Lipo. They're over-engineered for our LEV use. No I haven't touched an 18650 in many years.

Lol... and I paid 7cents / Wh for mine. Tear the packs down about once a month for datalog and show exactly the same thing, not out of balance 0.001v... Mine are 5 years old from an unknown history. 2015 is all I know, from the Julian date on the cell.

Some ebiker will inherit these when I move onto the next build, and they will last that person many years.

Some say you cant have power, economy, AND longevity. I never doubted my homemade battery for doing what it wa supposed to.

I cannot imagine paying 1$ / Wh like a HK lipo ( 6s, 5000, 125$ 125Wh lipo) or 6$ for a single 18650, that is also like .80-1.00$ / Wh.

The only thing I use the HK lipos ( I like the HK Graphenes) is my RC Heli flights.

 

[DogDipstick]

You seem fixated on high Crate, high cost, low capacity, products.
They are no comparison to the 16/20Ah multistars .
JMHO.

Not quite sure why you would think that, I exclusively use EV cells and have been implying the merits of those since my post # 1 here on ES ... (that happened to be about EV lipos, my first post...), mentioned prior, earlier in this thread.



....but I do believe the Graphenes and the HRB are better than the Multistars, (that which did not even make the list) for a hobbyist whom is not building, but buying a lipo. I believe they will handle the power/cost/longevity factors better than the Multistars, a cell that I have only read problems about in the power driven circles I frequent.

 

[Hillhater]

Not quite sure why you would think that, .....

.....because that is what you linked to when asked what you would suggest...

...but I do believe the Graphenes and the HRB are better than the Multistars, (that which did not even make the list) for a hobbyist whom is not building, but buying a lipo. I believe they will handle the power/cost/longevity factors better than the Multistars, a cell that I have only read problems about in the power driven circles I frequent.

Maybe you are not reading the reports from the many ES members who use Multistars for typical ebike use ?
They are much better value ( mine were Au $0.20 /kWh ) and more than capable of the typical 1-3C demand that <3kW ebikes need.
Like many, i do not use a BMS or a balance charger, with only occasional balance checks without issue, over the 5+ years i have used them

 

[DogDipstick]

( mine were Au $0.20 /kWh )

..........you do mean "$0.20 / Wh", correct? Small discrepancy, but still relevant... You certainly did not pay that for a KWh. Honestly dont beleive there is any real power in them or PuffCity.

Certainly they are significantly higher priced than those. I have seen many fail at their intended purposes. I have been promoting EV lipos to my knowledge this entire thread... and subsequently asked what hobby grade lipo I would chose, and since I have experience with both, I answer.

https://hobbyking.com/en_us/multist...0mah-6s-12c-multi-rotor-lipo-pack-w-xt90.html

Here they are for $0.46c/Wh ..... BEST I COULD FIND ( challange you to find them for less A little more than what I would want to pay for lipos, like these: And use them for the mutiple applications like my RC helis and the Ebike. Dont get me wrong, I once rode with (6-8) 6s 5000mAh lipos in hobby grade brick form on my BBS02 for a few hundered miles with them.

Here: 65$ for 125Wh: HRB from Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/HRB-5000mAh-T-REX550-Multirotors-Helicopters/dp/B01MXIYHBI.......... $0.50c / Wh... FOr proven lipos that fly helis at 10Kw... or the Turnigy HD bricks, theya re good too.

 

[DogDipstick]

Maybe you are not reading the reports from the many ES members who use Multistars for typical ebike use ?

I have, and this influences my decision. For example, a report of IR wandering ( 33mOh?!?!?1) extreme on a pack here recently that I posted in, among others, whom have had problems,.

I have studied, read, and researched to the best of my knowledge about commonly available hobby batteries for some time. I can, and have, read. This influenced my decisions, and why I state the merits of them now.

 

[flat tire]

HRB.

This is such a troll. The question was alternatives to MULTISTAR and you post a spreadsheet exclusively of high C-rate batteries. None of those are in the same class as multistar. If HRB has an offering in that category that was not made clear.

 

[DogDipstick]

HRB.

This is such a troll. The question was alternatives to MULTISTAR and you post a spreadsheet exclusively of high C-rate batteries. None of those are in the same class as multistar. If HRB has an offering in that category that was not made clear.

I aint trolling.

Volume is negligible, and if you ask for a recommendation for a battery that can handle the use, I recommend the ones my friends have had success with at a reasonable price. Like I said, I fit 25 Ah of 5000mAh store bought lipos in my bike, before, and know what ou can fit, see the dimensions, and have experience in the circles of hobbies-ts whom happen to kill lesser lipos... such as Multistars.

You asked for a good battery, that would fit on a bike, have the ( similitude in ) sizes that fit in triangle bags, and not die with a hobbyist that want to push the wattage without fail.

HRB is cheap, , well reviewed, atm on Amazon ( same price as the MS, ~50c/Wh... ), near the same volume ( fit 25Ah in a bag) and will not die when hit with 10Kw, unlike the ( lesser quality) Multistars. Plus they can fly 10Kw RC helicopters, something the manufacturer of Multistars explicitly did not expect from their product.. for the same price. The power AND the capacity, right there, for the same price, instead of the JUST the capacity, and a well known LACK of power.

Be proud of whatever battery you have if you like it, but I have my experience, and the knowledge of others also.

They sell 8Ah packs, too, HRB does.. but they are not as cheap as the 5ah packs cause the 5Ah are so poplular in that size... loads of applications...

 

[DogDipstick]

HRB.

This is such a troll. The question was alternatives to MULTISTAR and you post a spreadsheet exclusively of high C-rate batteries. None of those are in the same class as multistar. If HRB has an offering in that category that was not made clear.

What in the F-U-C-K makes them " not in the same class"?

"None of those are in the same class as Multistar."

Cycles? Shape? Chemistry? Volume? ENERGY density? Power DENSITY? Cost? Wire composition?

Similitude in : Cycles, shape, chemistry, volume, energy, power, cost, and wire design.. )
Significant differences are less cycles and more cost with the multistars.. but everything els ( even though not strictly congruent) have similitude in traits.

One significant difference s the color of the wrapper, Oh gee you got me. Yea that absolutely makes them not in the same class...

Fact is I'll kill your Multistar in a week. Then go back to the cost effective packs that punch ( and last).

 

[DogDipstick]

HRB.

This is such a troll. The question was alternatives to MULTISTAR and you post a spreadsheet exclusively of high C-rate batteries. None of those are in the same class as multistar. If HRB has an offering in that category that was not made clear.

What in the F-L-O-C-K makes them " not in the same class "?

"None of those are in the same class as Multistar."

Cycles? Shape? Chemistry? Volume? ENERGY density? Power DENSITY? Cost? Wire composition? Country of Manufacture?

Similitude in : Cycles, shape, chemistry, volume, energy, power, cost, and wire design.. )
Significant differences are less cycles and more cost with the multistars.. but everything else ( even though not strictly congruent) have similitude in traits.

One significant difference s the color of the wrapper, Oh gee you got me. Yea that absolutely makes them not in the same class...

Fact is I'll kill ( puff ) your Multistar in a week @ current. Then go back to the cost effective packs that punch ( and last ).

 

[flat tire]

What in the F-U-C-K makes them " not in the same class"?

Because while they're all hobby cells multistar is optimized for energy density not power density. Your batteries are all optimized for power density. Come on, you know that.

Anyway I'm not "proud" of multistar, I want to know what's the best battery in the category of high capacity (not high discharge) hobby cells.

High capacity and discharge for a given chemistry are necessarily mutually exclusive since you need more conductor inside the cell for high discharge.

So while volume may not be much different weight certainly is. What about maximizing battery capacity for a given weight on a bike that only needs a low C rate? Those cells you listed are all much poorer Wh/kg than multistar. You seem to have a lot of knowledge so I was quite surprised to see only power density, not energy density.

Anyone, better low-c-rate hobby cell than multistar with criteria of Wh/kg, price, discharge performance, longevity, in that order?

 

[DogDipstick]

HRB.

This is such a troll. The question was alternatives to MULTISTAR and you post a spreadsheet exclusively of high C-rate batteries. None of those are in the same class as multistar. If HRB has an offering in that category that was not made clear.

What in the F-L-O-C-K makes them " not in the same class "?

"None of those are in the same class as Multistar."

Cycles? Shape? Chemistry? Volume? ENERGY density? Power DENSITY? Cost? Wire composition? Country of Manufacture? Nominal cell voltage? Warning labels? Shipping regulation?

Similitude in : Cycles, shape, chemistry, volume, energy, power, cost, and wire design.. )
Significant differences are less cycles and more cost with the multistars.. but everything else ( even though not strictly congruent) have similitude in traits.

One significant difference s the color of the wrapper, Oh gee you got me. Yea that absolutely makes them not in the same class...

Fact is I'll kill ( puff ) your Multistar in a week @ current. Then go back to the cost effective packs that punch ( and last ).

 

[Ianhill]

Decent Wh per kg + volume is dense on the multistars specially being a 2015 or so product it's old tech that's discontinued.
Multistars are specifically low c rate batterys with high capacity.

Like 21700 have differing chemistrys and electrolyte recipes giving differing characteristic like, high discharge low capacity or low discharge high capacity and a few in the middle same goes for Lipo.

I had 16ah multistars and 10ah graphene cells both have simular weight and size but clearly one can chuck out 100amp no probs while the other will only do 60at best but the diff is when working with at the C design rate and halfed as its optimistic at best you will get alot more capacity with one and discharge with the other.

 

[DogDipstick]

"optimized "

Show me any concrete reference that HobbyKing has " optimized" the Multistar line that would be cost effective for an ebiker... esp one who is investing in any decent range or longevity.. or upgrade...

Hk says alot of things. They also advertise the Multistar line as.. get this .. 12-24C... right there. (192A- 384A... sure Hk.. we believe.. now to reply to that spam email... )

Show me any concrete reference to the Multistar line being optimized, and the merits of such. I seen so many puffed puffers, ZI hate the puff any more. .. ( preferabally not a HK reference.. but...) Honestly.

 

[Ianhill]

Ebikes tend to be using 60 amps or so around 20s some spicy people push just over 100amps at 21s for kicks but you get the point.
So 32amp worth and 20s will fit a smaller shape cost about £365 uncompared at the time of 2015 or so to have a lighter weight packs than high C Lipo with the one downside it has half the C rate at best but with that amount of them 100amps was still easy to pull making them ebikes dream for a budget and to get that capacity was dirt cheap because everybody bought them at Christmas time when there was a deal making it £145 in the UK for a 16s 16ah pack that got my diy scooter to 48mph and I give that thing a beasting it took a storm to kill it up the mountain packs where soaked through mud salts all crap I rode through so they started to fail but it was a damn good buy had a blast on them things pulled 4.4kw and needed to be warmed to get that anymore was just too much for them cold days would hurt them bad that halfed c rate again making them 2c or so.

 

[DogDipstick]

Volume of 6s 10C 10Ah Multi: 537cc 120$ 1189g
Volume of a pair of HRB 5Ah 50C lipos: 714.24cc 130$ 1505g


Difference:

Ah = 0 difference (congruent)
C-Rate = 40C difference ( big) ( so your batteries dont die the first year you go over 50A)
Volume = 177cc difference ( tiny) ( like insignifigent imo even though you may debate this signifigance
Mass= 316g ( tiny) ( less than the weight of a single 15Ah chevy volt cell on my bike difference_)
Cost = 10$ differences


I understand the tradeoff, but I have seen cells that have 1/4 of the volume than the 'Stars but a whoooole lot more capacity. HK is hobby grade, negligent for reliability period. What is negligible to one may not be to another.

I'll always choose power and longevity rather than capacity and loss of life when the difference is about the weight of a pint of water. I see it as cost evffective with the battery only light EV that we call ebikes. Like the small traction packs in some EV... they have the Crate to back it if it is going to be small.

 

[Ianhill]

Let's put it like this I moved on to graphene cells and not really had a happy purchase by there needed a replacement one had high IR from HK and there was alot of emails back and forth questioning the cell and also my credibility but I have the knowledge to write a nice piece when I put my mind to it and got a replacement.

I've used sanyo 18650 and they have to be some of the best cells I've abused real real good battery lasted from 2012 and RIP just this winter when one bunch of cells dropped capacity massively so dendrites had got they way and killed it, I've got a kuberg freerider with Sony vtc3 cells and can't fault them it's 13s10p and does 220amp pulls like a train tops out at 35mph so literally takes my 180pound straight up anything never bogs down so for me I prefer the cylindricals they are more tolerant to environmental strain compared to Lipo but need a step forward from nickel strip to copper and solid state build for some genuine state of the art shit.

 

[john61ct]

OK trying to re-focus on the thread topic, "LiPo vs li-ion" batteries, with some greater clarity and precision in our communications

Here's a summary of the factors at play here afaict

Starting with the "intended use case" category dimension (ignoring chemistry LCO NCA LMO NMC etc)

energy density, aka Ah capacity per weight and volume - if high C-rates are **not** needed then this can be maximized at a lower price per kWh by avoiding high-power cells

power density, aka high C-rate, per weight and volume. energy density unavoidably sacrificed, usually much higher cost per kWh

_______
Then we come to the form factor in battery type, independent of specific chemistry. These include 5 categories afaict, trying to verify that we can keep hard boundaries between them:

1. LiPo, for hobby packs only.

2. Pouch cells vs 3. Cylindricals

and 4. EV packs specifically, which can be composed from either #2 or #3, but let's not confuse with #1

5. Prismatics, have pouches internally but hard-cased with posts or bolt terminations

All of these clearly to be used independently of the specific cell chemistry, and also independently of the "power vs energy" factors discussed above.

_______
Finally we come to a "third dimension", similar to acquisition cost but relevant to long-term value.

Longevity, as in both robust construction and lifetime cycles, when not abused relative to C-rate.

This factor is clearly **independent** of both the "power vs energy" and the "form factor" variables above, depend more on build quality consistency, purity of chemicals used, actually rejecting sub-par cells etc, not just factory QC but also sales channel integrity.

All other thing being equal, there may be some greater cycle longevity by accepting lower energy density, e.g. somewhat heavier pack per kWh capacity.

Clearly, for use cases requiring even occasional high C-rates, say over 1C continuous, then you must choose higher-power batteries in order to get any kind of longevity, even if 300 cycles is considered "long life".

Use cases where 0.2C may be an average are usually ignored in these forums, but IMO should be kept in mind where possible in a general battery discussion.

Feedback on these factors as a "discussion baseline" would be most welcome, and the discussions here would I think be more generally helpful if we each stepped outside our particular "fish in water" experience a little and included making such qualifications explicit

rather than over-generalizing.

 

[Hillhater]

.....
Use cases where 0.2C may be an average are usually ignored in these forums, but IMO should be kept in mind where possible in a general battery discussion......

Why ?....how does it influence the choice of cell ??
..surely its more relavent to consider the ACTUAL typical (and max) loads, and how they relate to the nominal “C”.rating of various cells.