Metallover's Novara Buzz Build

[Metallover]

I am 160 miles straight south of Sisseton, about 10 miles out of Sioux Falls. Everything on the east side of South Dakota looks exactly the same, lol. You need to go to the west side of the Missouri to find any deviation!

Weather here as of late has been really hot!, but not quite as hot as you! We have has low-mid 90's the past few days, but yesterday was cold and now today it's 55 with thunderstorms. We usually hit 100 degrees up here a few times a summer but it's not too common, thank god.

When I was planning out where to put the controller I overlooked the top part because of another piece I had holding the batteries on earlier... I think now I'll change it! It'll give me more suspension travel breathing room and maybe a little more crotch room! Thanks for pointing that out!

 

[Metallover]

Went on a long ride today. I went into Sioux Falls. Riding with traffic downtown is a LOT of fun!

Took some pics with my new phone

Some hill/monument

The Spillway- loud and a little full right now!

And one at Falls Park when a train went by.

Ride was about 32 miles, and I had to pedal a couple of those because my battery died.

 

[Metallover]

I am having my throttle cut out at times. Mainly over hard bumps while under throttle and up hills after a long time on the throttle. Almost seems like a LVC thing. I get throttle back after I let off completely. I'm guessing bad connection... somewhere. :? Something tells me it's in the motor.. My crappy butt joints on the phase wires???

I have 490 miles on the bike as of now. The brakes are pretty worn down and the bike is starting to loosen up. A tune up is in the works to get everything back to like-new condition.

Powerlifting coach

Picture taken at speed while crusin'

These were both taken on my phone

 

[Metallover]

I think I figured out my cutting out problems!! The shrink/insulation wore off two of my three phase wires because they were rubbing on the axle nut.

I was also getting some play in the torque arms, so I added some shims. Bike feels like new now.

Took me less than 30 minutes to find and fix the problems.

 

[deVries]

The cooling holes and 60mm fans on 18V in the 9c 2807 motor do their job very nicely! Last summer I constantly had to stop at over 100*C and today the motor never got over 70*C. I have the controller set for 50A, which is roughly 3,500W.

I think I'm producing more than 3,500W tho because last year my good watt meter showed 69A peak when the controller was limited to 57A. :| Not complaining tho. :lol:

Just curious about your opinion here regarding the cooling with 2 fans...

1) If your voltage was 60v (surface charge) & the controller was set for 50A, then do you think you would still need the cooling fans? One or both?

2) If your voltage was 49v (surface charge) & the controller was set for 50A, then do you think you would still need the cooling fans? One or both?

3) Did you find some other threads on ES that describe these mods to drill holes & add these fans? How did you attach the fans inside the motor?

4) With your off-road trail use do you think you may have some problems with any debris or dirt getting into the motor through the cooling holes?

5) Have you noticed any moisture issues causing any problems inside the motor with rust or corrosion, because these cooling holes allow for the moisture transfer to get inside the motor?

6) Did you have cooling holes drilled in your motor cover that overheated last summer too?

Nice work, btw, and it's good you have luck to figure-out everything w/o major issues. 8)

Nice pics of your town-scenery & kewl video of your trail ride too.

 

[Metallover]

Thanks man!

Check out Air cooling my x5. This thread goes in-depth on cooling hub motors. Also search for threads with cooling in the title, display as threads if you want more info on it. A bunch of members have drilled holes in their motors; I based my holes off of Method's 9c motor's holes to be honest. Looking back I might try to drill them further out on the motor closer to the windings; they might be more effective then.

I drilled the holes last spring when I was getting really hot after I first switched to 18s lipo. If you want to see what I have done for my motor and how it performed last year, search for "Metallover's 9c blackcomb build". It was my first e-bike.

This year actually my dc-dc converter is broken so the fans are out of commission at the moment--- I actually haven't overheated once! I am running 18s lipo and a 57a limit now. 100% throttle. I have only gotten up to about 75c this summer, which is a lot lower than the 105+c temps I hit last year! My alarm is at 100c. I think I got a lot hotter last year because I was running that 120% timing boost in the software. That adds a good 3-5mph but it kills efficiency and really heats things up. I don't recommend running it unless you are setting personal records or racing someone.

I attached the fans in the motor with zip ties. There are probably a few threads on here with people who have added fans in their motors, but I can't think of any off the top of my head. I found fans that wouldn't be too tall and rigged it up. I started with one 40mm fan back in my old bike's thread and jumped to 2 60mm fans with this bike.

As for things entering the motor, I am always worried about water. Definitely do something to protect your halls and consider coating everything in the motor with something to prevent rust and water damage. Dust gets in there, and doesn't cause much of a problem. Rocks have never gotten in, and I'm not too worried about it. Imagine throwing a rock into my spinning motor. It would be hard to get it through the holes. Now imagine that rock getting kicked up and moving fast enough horizontally to make it though the holes. It's very unlikely. I drive on gravel roads all the time and I'm still not worried at all.

I had duct tape on the holes last winter for the riding I did. Moisture still got in and caused a little rust, apparent in the pictures at the start of this thread. I don't plan on using my motor for much more than a few years so a yearly oiling and general caution should keep me on the road. I have lost a couple halls (in one round), probably due to moisture. I have since put some liquid electrical tape over them to protect them a little more.


If you are looking to add cooling holes and fans to your motor, I say go for it! Down the road you will probably be looking at a little more maintenance than without holes, but the extra performance is really, really nice!! You could of course get a better motor so it doesn't run quite as hot, but that costs more.

I haven't run a lot of different setups, but I think one like mine is perfect. It's relatively inexpensive. 35-40mph top speed with 3-4KW of power allows you to keep up with traffic. 1KWH of Lipo gives you enough range to go very respectable distances. IMO, anything much less is too slow to feel comfortable in traffic and anything much more will cost a lot more $$ and will be more dangerous.

 

[Metallover]

I did some performance testing today! I attached the camera to the bike to film the GPS or the watt meter. I won't take the time to upload the video unless someone wants to see it.

I have the bike running 18s Turnigy 20c lipo charged to 95% capacity, which is right at 4.167V/cell. My 12fet Ecrazyman controller has 4310 fets and it limited at 57A.

0-10mph time was 3s, 20mph 4s, 30mph 8sec, 35mph 11s.

Applying full throttle from a stop, I pulled 4000-4500W (~61A) for the first 6 seconds, until about 25mph. Power then slowly tapers off to about 2250W at 11sec at about 35mph. 2250W (30A) seems like about my continuous top speed power consumption.

I peaked just over 4500W with 72.03V @ 62.7A.

All the tests were done with the motor already warm; probably at about about 60C. My first recorded test was fastest and results got a little slower as time went on.

I can say if the HK010 meter is accurate, my bike is capable of a very strong 4500W! Time to update my sig!

 

[torker]

Nice graph. That bike really pulls 0 to 20 I don't have any gps to do a graph. I'd have to do it old school with a stopwatch But I am right at 62v and 57 a so I would imagine ... Well I do have my slow wind motor in a 20 inch wheel and my top speed is a little less, maybe 25 mph. so I should get to 20 pretty quick.. Now I gotta find a stopwatch

 

[Metallover]

Thanks man! I have to say the speed numbers are rounded pretty loosely, so the line is probably a little flatter then shown in the graph. I spent more time trying to get the watt numbers right.

I want to redo the test again,, a little more thought out. GPS and Watt Meter in the same video frame so I could post a nice video. I will do a longer test too, 30 seconds maybe.


Yesterday I moved some batteries and controllers around. I got it down to just 2 straps to hold on the lone battery on the front. The rest of the batteries are held in place by the controller and a piece attached to the top tube.

Wires are still messy, but now I am more on my way to putting on the side covers.

 

[Metallover]

Round 2! This time the Garmin 201 GPS and the HK101 watt meter were both in the camera frame. The video turned out great.

Other than the camera it was the same setup as before. The first and third runs were with the "15mph" wind and the 2nd and 4th runs were against it.

I got on the flat road, stopped, then gave it full throttle without pedaling for at least 30 seconds.

Each run has 2 lines, one for the speed and one for the power.

And I attached a bigger picture of the graph.

 

[veloman]

0-10mph time was 3s, 20mph 4s, 30mph 8sec, 35mph 11s.

Applying full throttle from a stop, I pulled 4000-4500W (~61A) for the first 6 seconds, until about 25mph. Power then slowly tapers off to about 2250W at 11sec at about 35mph.

It's good to see some ebike numbers. I've concluded that realistic ebike builds will never be about speed for me. If I want acceleration, I do it on my road bike. I'm not trying to cut you or anyone else's build down at all. It's still a quick bike that I am sure is a lot of fun. I just wouldn't ever attempt 'racing' city traffic with one.

When it comes to short term performance (<12 seconds), I'll take a good road racing bike with my two legs.

Does anyone else have similar acceleration numbers? GC, DoctorBass?

 

[Metallover]

Those numbers were really rough, I want to update that with the 4 runs I did today. These are pretty dang accurate.

MPH
0-10 - 1.5s
0-20 - 3.5s
0-25 - 4.75s
0-30 - 6.75s
0-35 - 8.25s

The bike has enough power to negotiate traffic with ease, at least on a 30mph road. 35mph roads are do-able.

Does anyone else have similar acceleration numbers? GC, DoctorBass?

I would like to see other people's numbers too!

 

[iovaykind]

Any hopes of a battery cover yet? lol

 

[Metallover]

Yes!

I spent 8 hours yesterday working on the bike.

I mentioned earlier how I messed up the disc brake adapter. Well after 2 epoxy jobs failed I drilled a couple holes and put screws through em with a generous amount of thread lock. They should be good for the long haul now.

I bought some metal to make an upper battery mount. Before I assembled it I made the original lower piece thinner so I would have more leg room.

original

worbench jig

much better fit

done

top bracket installed

and cleaned up

and the template

reversed

I hope to have the final plastic installed soon. I still want to get a keyswitch, main power switch (with my pre charge resistor installed!),, along with a CA or a new watt meter.

____

I also got a headlight! I got this flashlight not just for the bike, but for other uses as well.

It came from dealextreme, here. It's an "UltraFire TH-T60 HA-II XM-LT60 5-Mode 1200-Lumen White LED Flashlight with Strap (1 x 18650)". It probably doesn't put out 1200 lumens, but it runs on an 1850 and has a CREE XM-L emitter in it. For the price it's great!!

The strobe on it is killer and it's pretty comparable to our big "1,000,000 candlepower" spotlights. I charge the 18650 with my 600 watt RC charger. A little overkill but whatever..

Time to do some NIGHT-RIDING!!

 

[snellemin]

That is some pretty bright light for cheap. Gonna hafta order me one as well.

 

[deVries]

Well after 2 epoxy jobs failed I drilled a couple holes and put screws through em with a generous amount of thread lock. They should be good for the long haul now.

Nice mounting rework 8)

How did the epoxy jobs fail? Describe what were you trying to do.

Thanks.

 

[Metallover]

If you look at the picture, I put some epoxy (happened to be kwik jb weld, not the strongest I know.. :| ) on the motor then slid the adapter on and I let it set up. The first time I did this I still had some thread left and the epoxy lasted a lot longer.

I fixed it the same way you would secure a pinion gear to a motor, only I drilled into the motor too so the screws went deeper. I used two allen head bolts, about 90* apart. :wink:

It rained last night and is supposed to rain tonight so I won't be able to try out my new flashlight just yet! I will get out there the first opportunity I get tho!!

 

[Metallover]

So far this summer I've ridden 775 miles.

I've installed my VT monitor in one of the upper battery pieces. I've also put in switches for that and the ignition on the controller up there. Very convenient.

And I've had some time to take out the flashlight.

First off, the 18650 batteries aren't as nice as lipos. The curve isn't as flat. The light will slowly get darker throughout the ride, becoming a little too dark for my liking after maybe 45 minutes to an hour. They won't die until beyond 2 hours tho. Ideally I would have a dc-dc converter and run it off of my pack, which is kinda defeating the purpose of not getting a cycle luminator, but whatever. I can still find some coons and navigate in the dark on foot.

Also, if you're looking for 18650s, I think these are the best ones on dealextreme (from research I don't have them myself) - http://www.dealextreme.com/p/trustfire-protected-18650-3-7v-true-2400mah-rechargeable-lithium-batteries-2-pack-20392

The cell I have lasted a long time, but from completely drained @2.6V, my charger said it only took back like <600mah, and it's a 2500mah cell. The other times I charged it I got similar results. I think the charger miiiight be wrong.. :|

I took some pictures, but the camera (on my phone) doesn't really do it justice. You need to see it in person,, no camera will do a good enough job.

This is the bike from 200' away, with the light in normal position (pointing down). The streetlights behind the bike are probably 1/2 mile out.

This is just a friend riding past on the street at 11:00.

And this is from the bike on a bike path, after about an hour of runtime. This picture really doesn't do it justice; In person the spot covers the whole path and is much more intense.

At night, with no ambient lighting, on a known bike path or road, I can travel about 30 comfortably. On a dirt road out in the country I can go about 20 without getting a little nervous. The light really does make night riding an option.

Cars now respect me in the dark. I feel safe riding at night.

Get a headlight you won't be disappointed.

 

[Metallover]

I finally got to work on the side panels! I'll do this first one today and save the other side for when I have more time.. I'm attaching it now with Dual Lock velcro stuff. I'll have to see how that holds up... If it doesn't I'll have to use bolts or something..

This is how it looks now, the side is about half done. The easy side.

 

[torker]

That looks sooo much better. I need to start getting mine out again. We've hit like 44 days over 100 deg. here . and humid I work outside all day so the garage or the bike have been a distant third or fourth place to the pool and the ac..

 

[doc007]

what type of material are you using for the casing? ABS?? If so, where did you get it from?

Thanks! Your build is coming together very nicely!

 

[Metallover]

Thanks guys! I got a sheet of HDPE at Menards,, I can probably do 5-6 panels out of the sheet I got which cost about $10.

Also I took a few senior pictures yesterday with the ebike, LOL! :lol:

btw, I am NEVER going to pick up a girl for prom on my ebike, ever.. :wink:

 

[iovaykind]

That's a great looking cover. If you've been checking out my threads, I just got myself a novara too. method 1.0 and I plan to do roughly the same setup you did. Have you found that the battery mount brackets are on the heavier side? I'm contemplating what material to use for the battery mounts, but I want the final cover to really cover and waterproof everything. Any better pictures of the cover and where it fails to actually cover the internals?

 

[Metallover]

The cover isn't really done,, I just made one panel so far. I will make two sides and make some smaller peices for the top and front etc. It probably won't be done for a long time.

I just grabbed some cheap angle iron and made the enclosure out of that. I wasn't worried about weight at all; I just wanted something that wouldn't fall apart.

 

[Metallover]

It's been awhile. September the bike was put away due to a hall type problem. It's been 3 months since I've touched the bike.

I spent all day today fixing the hall problem. I had the motor apart twice, got all new wires in the motor, tested all the halls half a dozen times... Got it working for the most part.

I took it out for a ride and I only hit 16mph. I figured it wasn't programmed right, so I made sure it was at 99% throttle. It still wasn't fast so I started checking voltages. Some packs had cells at 3.75V, but three packs showed 0V.

I took the chunk of packs out of the bike and measured em up. One was at 0.2V, one was at 0.3V, and one was at -0.3V. Yes, NEGATIVE 0.3V. These are Turnigy 6s 5000mah 20c lipos.

That's a little scary. They're outside on a slab of concrete now. They must have been plugged in for three months straight. Looks like I'll be buying a few more soon!


Bad news aside, I got the motor fixed and snow tires on. I'm ready for the ski too! We haven't gotten any snow yet, which is crazy (bad). It's been hot as balls too, 40-45*f average the past couple months.

I got a new flashlight too. It's supposed to be 1200 Lumens and is a Trustfire brand. It can take three 18650s which means a 12v source (to be added). http://www.dealextreme.com/p/trustfire-tr-1200-cree-q5-wc-5-mode-1200-lumen-white-5-led-flashlight-2x18650-3x18650-4x16340-57380