My Schwinn Protocol 1.0 DS E-Bike

[Russell]

My first three builds have all been refinements of the same basic idea, a 700C/29er with a small front geared motor. I like the present rendition of this formula quite a bit (http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=34102) but I got the bug to build something different for the fun of it. Since I’m just playin’ around I did want to keep it inexpensive but I didn’t want to spend forever looking for the right bike on Craigslist so I opted for new.

Enter the Schwinn Protocol 1.0 dual suspension bike. It’s an inexpensive bike ($265 delivered from Academy Sports) but decent enough quality.

Stock photo


The things that attracted me to the bike were:

1) Low cost
2) STEEL rear triangle
3) Suntour M-2025 front fork w/STEEL dropouts (in case I want DUAL motors in the future )
4) Simple single pivot rear suspension

The bike arrived quickly and was double-boxed. Still there was some slight damage with the front rotor bent pretty badly. I’ve got a bunch of 160mm rotors so no biggie there.

The fully assembled bike came to almost exactly 36 lbs, not too bad for a cheap bike.

I knew a one-sized frame (18”, medium) would be too small for me but as this wasn’t destined to be a real “pedal’r” like my other ebike that was OK. I did replace a number of items however in part to make it fit me;

1) Replaced too short seatpost with a 350mm carbon post
2) Replaced stem with a 135mm/15 deg stem
3) Replaced 30mm riser bar w/ a 60mm riser bar
4) Replaced loose ball/cone bottom bracket with a sealed unit
5) Replaced 42/34/24 crankset with a 48/38/28 crankset (removed from my Jeep Comanche).
6) Replaced integrated 8 speed trigger shifter/brake levers with 4-finger levers and SRAM 7 speed twist shifters
7) Replaced the wheels with a pair I bought from an E-S member. The rims are Alex DH-19 and the rear motor is a Bafang BPM.



And here is the completed bike;

Controller is a KU93 9-FET from BMSBattery w/shunt modded to 28A peak. Auto-cruise is enabled, 3-speed switch is installed and for the time being I also installed a pedelec sensor on the crank.


View attachment 2


-R

 

[Russell]

First ride.

This afternoon armed with my trusty Zippy 12S 5Ah LiPo pack I went on the first ride.

As I mentioned above I installed a pedelec sensor on the bike. I’ve always wanted to try one but for a number of reasons (no controller support, no pedelec sensor, no square-taper bb) I never have had the opportunity. Well I finally got my chance with this bike.



Since I pretty much pedal all of the time I was hoping I could regulate the speed of the bike simply by varying my cadence. Unfortunately this pedelec system is not that sophisticated. At normal pedaling speeds the controller pretty much delivers “full throttle”. With very slow pedaling it is possible to keep the speed down but the system tends to surge on and off when doing so. Disappointed but not surprised I pulled over, disconnected the sensor and continued on throttle control.

Another thing I wanted to try out was the 3-speed switch. When the switch is clicked to the right the power is reduced with top speed on 12S LiPo of about 21 mph. With the switch in the middle position the controller is in normal mode or the same as if no switch was installed. Top speed in this mode was about 26 mph max (The ride was short and the wind was blowing so the numbers are tentative). When the switch was clicked to the left the top speed increased perhaps 1.5 mph but the motor also made some odd noises at full throttle as the terrain and load varied. The faster speed is apparently achieved by advancing the timing so it doesn’t work when running the controller sensorless.

My first impressions of the bike are positive but I was preoccupied with a number of items on this first ride so it’ll take a few more outings to fully evaluate this build. One thing that’s GOTTA GO is the TIRES. I approached a sharp right hander a little too quickly (forgot I had auto-cruise enabled) and as I leaned the bike over to make the turn the rear end almost skidded out from under me. The large outer blocks are no doubt to blame.



At the end of this first shakedown ride I had gone 4.95 miles and used a whopping (for me anyway) 130 Wh's or 26.26 Wh/mile with an average speed of a hair under 20 mph. Peak power was 1324W, peak current 28.2A.

-R

 

[Whiplash]

I have this exact bike, its been on hairy downhill rides, (not recommended ) and over 3k miles and still rides great. I have a Conhusmotor pushing about 1800watts max and it's been totally reliable. Good choice!

 

[csmarr]

Very Nice! However, I would be concerned with failure of the carbon seatpost. Several frames of this type have had failures in the seatpost clamp area if there is too short a section of the seatpost remaining inside the frame. Street tires will make a major difference in handling.

 

[Racer_X]

Russell, Nice build! The Schwinn Protocol looks like a great host. I especially like:

1) Low cost
2) STEEL rear triangle
3) Suntour M-2025 front fork w/STEEL dropouts (in case I want DUAL motors in the future )
4) Simple single pivot rear suspension

Not too often you find those in a decent quality bike. Looking forward to seeing how the quality turns out in the long run.

 

[Russell]

I have this exact bike, its been on hairy downhill rides, (not recommended ) and over 3k miles and still rides great. I have a Conhusmotor pushing about 1800watts max and it's been totally reliable. Good choice!

This is my first dual suspension bike and I must say I do like the plush ride. I was concerned about "bobbing" when pedaling but I took it out again today and it pedaled just fine.

This is the highest power I've run to date at around 1300w peak, previously even when I had a 9C DD motor I ran only 1000W max. The extra power is nice when scooting across intersections but the Bafang BPM geared motor is almost too "eager" at low speeds for my tastes, especially with a cheap thumb throttle. I may detune it back to around 20A or switch to 36V at the same current.

On today's outing I had the 3-speed switch set to limit speed (to about 21 mph) but unfortunately it does nothing to the current limit. Still with a lower average trip speed of 17.1 mph, which is more like I usually ride at, the power consumed was reasonable at 15.24 Wh/mi. I used the motor probably 95% of the time with cruise control on and pedaling with low effort.

I don't want to mess with my main ride too much so this bike gives me something to tinker with.

Very Nice! However, I would be concerned with failure of the carbon seatpost. Several frames of this type have had failures in the seatpost clamp area if there is too short a section of the seatpost remaining inside the frame. Street tires will make a major difference in handling.

Yeah I was a bit concerned about that too especially with the seatpost rack bolted to it but it’s the only long (350mm) seatpost (Guizzo by Kalloy) I had in my parts box. I also like the 30mm setback of this seatpost.

I’m pondering which tires I want to get. I loved the Schwalbe Marathon Supreme’s I had on a previous bike, they were simply wonderful, but with a rear motor I want even more puncture protection so I was thinking of the Schwalbe Marathon or Marathon Plus.

Russell, Nice build! The Schwinn Protocol looks like a great host. I especially like:

1) Low cost
2) STEEL rear triangle
3) Suntour M-2025 front fork w/STEEL dropouts (in case I want DUAL motors in the future )
4) Simple single pivot rear suspension

Not too often you find those in a decent quality bike. Looking forward to seeing how the quality turns out in the long run.

I looked at a bunch of low end bikes on line with a lot of attention to the style of dropouts they had. Many full aluminum bikes have shallow dropouts and/or dropouts with more complex forms to them. I wanted simple, flat and preferably steel so that was a big factor. I’m already thinking of swapping out the Bafang BPM in favor of DUAL Cute-100’s so the steel front fork is a plus. I’m running a similar short-travel, no adjustment steel fork on my other bike and for street riding it works well. I also know nothing about rear suspensions but I knew I wanted simple with as few bushings as possible…and one pivot point is as simple as it gets. The single pivot near the bottom bracket is also supposed to be less prone to “bobbing” from pedal input. Besides those factors I found the reviews for the bike generally positive. The welds and paint look quite good too.

-R

 

[kevo]

I like how your rear disc brake matches the hub size lending to excellent stealth.
Nice build Russell

 

[motomech]

I’m already thinking of swapping out the Bafang BPM in favor of DUAL Cute-100’s so the steel front fork is a plus.

You had me worried for a moment, I thought maybe you had gone completely over to Emoto/bikes and that I might as well skip mini=motor versions V.2 and V.3 and just get a BPM :lol:

do you have in your mind an idea which Dual Q100's? Same winds or mix and match?

I think I finally have a handle on Q100 no-load speeds[@ 36V]

36V "201" = 230 rpm
36V "328" = 270 rpm
24V "201" = 290 rpm
24V "328" = 320 rpm[like your 24V GM?]

Why not dual 24V "328's" on 14S for the fastest mini-motor ride ever, that doesn't[maybe]self destruct?

BTW, I think most any decent alloy fork will take a mini safely.

As always, like your build, nice and neat without being too anal.

 

[Russell]

I do have a fondness for little motors. For someone such as myself who likes to pedal but who is getting older a little front geared motor on a decent pedaling bike is a great combination. This bike is a departure from that but it’s a test mule and just might be a commuter but it won’t replace my main ebike when I ride for cycling fun.

The Bafang BPM seems like a nice motor but I have a few quibbles with it; it’s noisier than any motor I’ve have save for the screaming Heinzmann brushed geared motor that was on the only pre-built ebike I’ve owned, an Ultra Motor Europa, and it really should have a 14mm axle on it.

I’ll play with the BPM for a while but I’ve wanted to build a dual motor ebike for some time and using two Cute 100’s for such a build looks like the best option. I will probably go with the 36V “328 RPM” motor kits from BMSBattery front and rear but tweak the rear controller for a tad more current. I won’t be looking for any more speed than the single BPM, but rather a balanced, versatile and efficient bike. I still need a bigger battery for my main bike however so that will be my next big ebike expense. The “dualie” project will have to wait until the budget allows.

-R

 

[motomech]

Yes, the 36V "328" seems like the best choice to me as well. I'll be doing something along those lines when I get home in a few weeks[need to order stuff now ].
Using the Ebike ca to play around, and the Ezee 20" @ 96% throttle as a substitute, I get-

Single motor[17.5 A controller, 46V batt.],

10%-10.5 mph, overheat in 15 min.
15%-5.5 mph, overheat in 5 min.
No-load speed-25 mph

Frt. motor[17.5 A controller, 46V batt.],
Rear motor[23A controller, 46V batt.]

10%-20.5 mph, overheat-never
15%-17.6 mph, overheat-never
No-load speed, 27.6 mph

I would be inclined to run 10S[39V] instead of the 12S for,

10%-19.5 mph, overheat-never
no-load speed-24 mph

A more reasonable speed to pedal with possible ratios of 11/44, 11/48 or 13/48 and little loss in climbing ability.

With this set up, I think simply running both motors all the time might work well, as I see little loss in efficiency[never really a big concern to me]amd it spread the wear and tear over two motors.

I assume with a higher voltage, a switchable motor control would be preferable.

At any rate, those things would easy enough to play around with during testing.

 

[Russell]

My new street tires arrived yesterday, they are puncture resistant models made by Biria, a German company I never heard of until now. The tires had good reviews on Amazon but I bought the generic "Trax" version from BikeMania for le$$. They weigh in at a hefty 942g and are labeled 26x1.90/2.00 (why not just call'em 26x1.95 :? )



With the new tires on I figured I 'd ride one of my regular loops at a a normal pace and see how the bike compares to previous bikes. The motor is a bit "jumpy" with the controller at 28A with a cheap thumb throttle so I used cruise control set for 16.5 +/- 1 mph. I pedaled normally, which is to say moderately with the motor running about 95% of the time. The controller LVC started cutting in the last half mile.

Distance: 17.4 miles
Average speed: 16.6 mph

Amp-Hours used: 4.425
Watt-Hours used: 199.8
Peak Watts: 1273
Min Volts: 38.54

WH/mile: 11.5

With my other bike (Jeep Comanche 700C/250W Bafang) over the same course at the same speed I use anywhere between 7.5 and 10 Wh depending on weather conditions. With that bike I do regulate my speed constantly with the throttle and usually pedal for at least a few miles without the motor so the 11.5 Wh result with the Bafang BPM running constantly isn't too bad.

I'm contiplating buying a 36V/10Ah battery and possibly commuting (8 miles) with this bike so on the next ride today I wanted to simulate that. I set the speed switch to low and took off using full throttle all of the time. Max speed was about 22 mph to start and right at 20 mph when I returned which is very close to what it should be with a 36V battery in normal mode.

Distance: 7.95 miles
Average speed: 19.6 mph

Amp-Hours used: 3.251
Watt-Hours used: 148.6
Peak Watts: 1245
Min Volts: 42.90

WH/mile: 18.7

It looks like a 36V/10Ah would be enough to make a 16 mile round trip with this bike. This is the battery I'm considering purchasing;



http://www.batteryspace.com/custom-linicomn-26650-battery-37v-10-8ah-400-wh-30a-rate-with-pcm-32-4.aspx



-R

 

[HellTriX]

Looks good. I hope it turns out to be a good platform.
I have a Protocol 2.0 that I plan to convert in the next few months to be a commuter.
First E-bike, also first post to ES.
I have my parts list ready. But gonna put a few more weeks on the bike before converting it.
Still need to find a good lithium charger. I am going to do a 72v eventually. I plan to start
with 36v pack with 36-72v controller, then after a few weeks of trials consider going to
72v for 35-40mph bursts. I already do 24mph average on my speed bike with bursts to 35.
So gonna try real hard to make a 35mph cruiser

Thanks for all your posts on your four E-bikes, provided good information.

 

[slawek]

Hi Russell
If I were you I would think twice before buying battery from batteryspace.com.
I build once pack 7S10P using their cells. Cycle life was very disappointing. In my case I think they overrated their product max current by 2 or 3 times. Basically I got ~150 cycles out of >1000 advertised. Currently this pack can give about 7-8 Ah out of 40Ah.
In this tread is a little more if you interested.
http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=26699&start=30#p530110

I am just saying, maybe you will have more luck than I had.

I switch to A123 Pouches but I can not say too much about them because I have cycle them only 6 times, although they behave very promising.

 

[Russell]

Still pondering on which battery but yeah I've never seen any rave reviews about the batteries from Batteryspace.

...in the meantime, the Schwinn Protocol 1.0 in E-bike form is no more. I made it fit me but it still felt somewhat cramped so I'm scrapping the project, converting it back to a regular bike and moving all the electric bits to this bike which I picked up today from Walmart;

Mongoose Hatchet 29'er

Yes, I'm going to swap out the big 700C/29" wheels and install a 26" set! The bike with the original 29 x 2.0" tires has a high bottom bracket height of over 13" so with the 26 x 1.95" wheels/tires in place it's now just a shade under 12", or pretty much the norm for regular mountain bikes.

Anyway while the Mongoose has the same 18" seat tube the (virtual) top tube is an inch longer at 23 1/4" (59cm) and the wheelbase is 1 3/4" longer at 44 1/4" (1125mm). The paint and the quality of the Schwinn is better but the Mongoose should feel better...we will see (in a different thread )

-R