new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

[flat tire]

I have to disagree with your statement about "sucks that way on rated voltage". Perhaps you don't know how to extract the performance and needed to invest money in expensive controllers and super high voltages to achieve what can be easily done with the stock setup; as I have no shortage of performance on my trike running 18S @ 6kW with stock everything, stock motor, stock controller (amped up to 90A), stock chainring 44/48/24, on a 10speed chain w/ 5+k miles per chain life, top speed of more than 70mph and a 0-30mph as quick as a 500cc ATV

Warning, thread derailled! Back to original subject of 30S being better than 20S for performance after these messages...

Ha, yes it is very hard to install a programmable controller for 20s.

Your trike has a high top speed for exactly one reason and it's called aero.

I'm reaching same power you are with only 60 amps thru higher RPM and reduction. I could run 90 amps and bump up the phase current, but with how I ride that motor would burn up for sure. If I ran the same current as you, I would be around 10KW...lol.

There are plenty of quads at the motocross track and I will tell you the performance between your trike w/ 6KW and a race quad is not even remotely close, so that thing must have been really slow or had a crappy rider.

 

[gman1971]

I have to disagree with your statement about "sucks that way on rated voltage". Perhaps you don't know how to extract the performance and needed to invest money in expensive controllers and super high voltages to achieve what can be easily done with the stock setup; as I have no shortage of performance on my trike running 18S @ 6kW with stock everything, stock motor, stock controller (amped up to 90A), stock chainring 44/48/24, on a 10speed chain w/ 5+k miles per chain life, top speed of more than 70mph and a 0-30mph as quick as a 500cc ATV

Warning, thread derailled! Back to original subject of 30S being better than 20S for performance after these messages...

Ha, yes it is very hard to install a programmable controller for 20s.

Your trike has a high top speed for exactly one reason and it's called aero.

I'm reaching same power you are with only 60 amps thru higher RPM and reduction. I could run 90 amps and bump up the phase current, but with how I ride that motor would burn up for sure. If I ran the same current as you, I would be around 10KW...lol.

There are plenty of quads at the motocross track and I will tell you the performance between your trike w/ 6KW and a race quad is not even remotely close, so that thing must have been really slow or had a crappy rider.

The question at hand here is not that 30S offers some benefits over 18S, like less amps, its so obvious everyone here knows that already, I guess you haven't read the whole thread? The problem however, is that for anyone to use 30S you have to buy a 300 frocking dollars controller; whereas to run 18S and 6.5kW all you have to do is use the stock motor controller that came with the kit, add some solder and a 10 dollar freewheel to get the right gearing, same net result. So the difference is that you spent a lot more money to solve a problem that could be solved with brains.

And then there is the aero, of course, something I fabricated myself as well; but even before the aero days, I didn't need 30S or a 300 dollar controller to hit 58mph with my unfaired trike (stock KMX trike, no aero mods then); but hey, I've done it, and you haven't, on 18S with 5.2kW, no less, something you failed to accomplish, and have the frocking face to tell people their shit running on 20s sucks.... Point is that there is NO shortage in performance with the stock configuration at the rated voltage as you claimed; plenty of eBikes here that have impressive performance. Also, my other trike, on the stock 40A controller, 18S @ 3kW also hits near 60 mph too, that one is barely faired. On my 12S Cyclone eBike 44.4 volts, running 60A @ 2.9kW I've hit 43 mph on flats, 48V @ 56amps yielded 43mph... now you tell me that 130V @ 60 amps yielded 50mph? wow, that seems like something is very wrong there... Again, if you know what you're doing you don't need to sink a lot of money at the problem. Keywords "know what you're doing"

You're welcome to come by here in Madison WI when you want to test your 30S eBike vs. what 18S can do, heck, maybe by the time you come here I might be running 40S!! Indisputably better than 30S, or better yet, a flux capacitor!

Race quads? I've seen blah, I've heard blah, My friend has blah... dude, seriously? Just because you can't do it, doesn't mean others can't.

G.

 

[flat tire]

Frocking dollars eh? lol...in any case I already had the controller on hand.

Let me reiterate: I'm running similar power to you but with 50% less current. That was the whole point of me switching to 30S. So even with reduced motor efficiency at 30S vs 20S (if that's even the case) I will come out way ahead in terms of motor temps. My 6KW and your 6KW are not the same. My bike is ridden hard and I make a lot of demands on the motor

 

[ebike11]

Frocking dollars eh? lol...in any case I already had the controller on hand.

Let me reiterate: I'm running similar power to you but with 50% less current. That was the whole point of me switching to 30S. So even with reduced motor efficiency at 30S vs 20S (if that's even the case) I will come out way ahead in terms of motor temps. My 6KW and your 6KW are not the same. My bike is ridden hard and I make a lot of demands on the motor

What are the other variants of cyclone? 3000, 4000, 6500 and 7000??

 

[gman1971]

Frocking dollars eh? lol...in any case I already had the controller on hand.

Let me reiterate: I'm running similar power to you but with 50% less current. That was the whole point of me switching to 30S. So even with reduced motor efficiency at 30S vs 20S (if that's even the case) I will come out way ahead in terms of motor temps. My 6KW and your 6KW are not the same. My bike is ridden hard and I make a lot of demands on the motor

Frocking b/c the E-S cuts the F word... but yes, F... lol

You happen to have invested the money on that controller at some point, but not a lot of people are willing to invest that kind of money when they just got an inexpensive 300 dollar Cyclone kit, ppl aren't buying controller that are worth more than the entire kit alone without a real valid reason more than some guy saying stock stuff sucks; and especially so when its proven in 100 pages that the stock stuff can work just as good with some simple mods, all explained in this long thread. The only reason why I am now considering an FOC controller is to increase my motor efficiency, I want to hit teen digits Wh/mile at 30mph average speeds and the stock 40A square taper controller is one of the things standing in my way to achieve that goal; but that will be after I've gotten my money's worth of the original stock controller, and when I do I certainly won't say that the stock stuff is shit... which I didn't find very tasteful to begin with... especially when a few post before yours someone explicitly said that controller was kinda pricey, asking for alternatives... the Cyclone 3000W is what it is, if you replace the controller, its no longer the C3000W kit... its something entirely different at that point...

Also, to be clear, 90A/60A comes to about 33%, not 50%, there is a big difference between 50% and 33%. The only reason I don't run higher V is b/c I haven't invested 300 dollars on a HV controller... but there is nothing magical about 30S vs 24S or 18S, power is power and 6kW is the same thing regardless; I also run super high RPM at the crank, more than 500 to be exact, and I achieved that with some overdrive on the motor, to take advantage of the reduction planetary gear so my motor losses aren't as pronounced... you achieved a similar result it by using a 300 dollar controller with the added cost of two additional 6S batteries... so for ~500 dollars extra I would hope you see any benefits... which personally I don't see them numbers that shocking compared to what mine does.

What makes you think I don't run my trikes hard? just b/c I have good aero? Good aero means that more of my hard earned oomph goes into making the dang thing go faster than wastefully heat the air around me, contributing to global warming and things of the like of Irma and Harvey...

G.

 

[gman1971]

Frocking dollars eh? lol...in any case I already had the controller on hand.

Let me reiterate: I'm running similar power to you but with 50% less current. That was the whole point of me switching to 30S. So even with reduced motor efficiency at 30S vs 20S (if that's even the case) I will come out way ahead in terms of motor temps. My 6KW and your 6KW are not the same. My bike is ridden hard and I make a lot of demands on the motor

What are the other variants of cyclone? 3000, 4000, 6500 and 7000??

A few sub 2 kW versions, 650, 1650W, 2000W, 3000W, 4000W, 7500W and 18kW aFAIK

G.

 

[ebike11]

Frocking dollars eh? lol...in any case I already had the controller on hand.

Let me reiterate: I'm running similar power to you but with 50% less current. That was the whole point of me switching to 30S. So even with reduced motor efficiency at 30S vs 20S (if that's even the case) I will come out way ahead in terms of motor temps. My 6KW and your 6KW are not the same. My bike is ridden hard and I make a lot of demands on the motor

What are the other variants of cyclone? 3000, 4000, 6500 and 7000??

A few sub 2 kW versions, 650, 1650W, 2000W, 3000W, 4000W, 7500W and 18kW aFAIK

G.

I see..this thread is dedicated to the 3000w kit. But i havent seen much online about the 4000w motor. Is there any reason that is seems less pppular?

 

[gman1971]

Frocking dollars eh? lol...in any case I already had the controller on hand.

Let me reiterate: I'm running similar power to you but with 50% less current. That was the whole point of me switching to 30S. So even with reduced motor efficiency at 30S vs 20S (if that's even the case) I will come out way ahead in terms of motor temps. My 6KW and your 6KW are not the same. My bike is ridden hard and I make a lot of demands on the motor

What are the other variants of cyclone? 3000, 4000, 6500 and 7000??

A few sub 2 kW versions, 650, 1650W, 2000W, 3000W, 4000W, 7500W and 18kW aFAIK

G.

I see..this thread is dedicated to the 3000w kit. But i havent seen much online about the 4000w motor. Is there any reason that is seems less pppular?

Much newer kit... the 3000W is been around for 3 or more years IIRC...

 

[flat tire]

Also, to be clear, 90A/60A comes to about 33%

I typed the wrong thing. But unless you can convince me that the motor is grossly less efficient at 30S than 18S, I will have similar performance than you with less heat. What part of that is hard to swallow? And what if I go to 90 amps? 10KW. You're invited to try 10KW with 18S...make sure to have a spare motor though.

Yes, for best efficiency (lowest Wh/mile) you would run a low voltage.

 

[gman1971]

Also, to be clear, 90A/60A comes to about 33%

I typed the wrong thing. But unless you can convince me that the motor is grossly less efficient at 30S than 18S, I will have similar performance than you with less heat. What part of that is hard to swallow? And what if I go to 90 amps? 10KW. You're invited to try 10KW with 18S...make sure to have a spare motor though.

Yes, for best efficiency (lowest Wh/mile) you would run a low voltage.

Of course, you typed the wrong thing...

I think you meant to say similar power with 33% less amps, so you achieved a 33% amp reduction for an added cost of 500+ dollars?, wow, those are some sound economics right there... For comparison, I achieved a massive drag coefficient reduction to allow me to hit 70mph with a mere 40 dollars worth of plastic and some handy work. We are worlds apart in terms of performance, when you can finally brute force your way to 60mph with HV or more amps, you still have another 10 more MPH to go, but don't despair, it can be done, you need about 15 kW to do it... so maybe you should run 50S? hopefully you won't get electrocuted on your way to prove how high voltage is so awesome...

FYI, for much less than 500 one can simply buy the Cyclone 7500XL kit that is 7.5+ kW and be done with it... no need to fuss much about that one like some ppl on YT have already showed with that motor easily hitting highway speeds. So why would I bother modding a C3000W like that when I can have the 7500XL or the 18kW one for about what you paid to run 30S? But the point remains, while we might have similar power, performance wise, I think its clear which one is faster. Again, I invite you to come by Madison WI and get a taste of what 18S @ 90A can do around a race track.

No, I won't try to convince you; why would I? You run whatever you want as it should be; however, when you claimed that the stock stuff sucked and that you didn't understand why it ships with such a big chainring etc, you came across as a clueless arrogant jerk, and I simply pointed out that my stuff, running stock gear, will smoke your stuff all day long, without melting the motor as you claim it will, I have 7500 miles to prove this, what do you have to prove yours? Yeah, you can call it aero, call it the weather, call it the batteries were depleted, etc, or that my tires were on low pressure... whatever dude, excuses are just that, excuses. Stock Cyclone 3000W gear with some cheap mods can be made to perform amazingly well... its been proved time and time in this thread, and I proved my point again that there is absolutely no need to invest 500 dollars on upgrades to achieve what its already been achieved with $40 dollars worth of plastic, an $18 dollar freewheel and 2 minutes soldering the shunt that gave my trike amazing performance (not power) that your 500+ investment simply can't touch.

As for running 10kW on mine, while I would love to do it just for spite and to shut you up, there are a few things that prevent me from doing it: FIrst, I am cheap and lazy, I don't want to buy a 300 dollar controller ATM just to spite someone, not that kind of guy; then 2nd, the stock 40A controller won't take anything above 90A, believe me I tried; and then 3rd, the fact that I actually value my life (perhaps you don't, but I do) and while I might've been near 70mph in a few occasions, its all fun and games until I get killed or seriously injured if something fails at that kind of speed. So adding 4+ extra kW to a trike that is already stupid fast won't prove anything to anyone; and it certainly won't make me feel any less insecure (or the lack thereof) b/c I have a 10kW or 11kW trike vs a measly 6.5 kW trike capable of 70mph... I guess you came here thinking you could outsmart 101 pages of Cyclone 3000W thread with your cleverness about running 30S... trying to prove your stuff was the fastest and the stock stuff sucked, etc... but I am sorry to be the asshole that one-ups you on your way to make everyone look like an idiot b/c they didn't stop to think of running their Cyclone motors at 30S on a 300 controller... oh man, dumb ppl.

I guess I have nothing further to discuss on this matter.

And now, with all that BS behind...

It is good to know that you can run the motor on 30S and not come apart, so, thanks for that; I will certainly take that into consideration when I upgrade the controller down the road.

Cheers.

G.

 

[gman1971]

Here is the thread and the charts with the computed efficiency of the Cyclone motor...
http://electrotransport.ru/ussr/index.php?topic=34238.0

In the opening post you can see the 63V, 85V and 33V charts: these charts showcase the motor being less efficient in either LV or HV at full throttle (the highest efficiency is reached at full throttle). On the 85V curve, at a given 1378W Input power, the motor is about 76% efficient, whereas on 63V, at nearly the same 1312W input power W the efficiency goes up to 80.9% percent. On 63V At 1600W input, the efficiency climbs to over 82% whereas on 85V is 77%. At 33V you can see that efficiency going down the toilet, specially at 1600W... so there you have it. Based on that information I believe the sweet spot for the Cyclone 3000W motor is somewhere around 16S and 20S.

BTW, all those numbers in the spreadsheet are very close to my real world empirical motor % data, which I calculated to be around a 25% loss average in the motor/drivetrain; that is, the power I read in the CA screen (measured @ the shunt) vs. the speed I see for the given power comes to be about 20-25% different. I computed the CdA and rolling resistance of my trike so I know with a certain degree of accuracy how much power it would require to go at any given speed.

G.

 

[DingusMcGee]

Gman,

BTW, also wanted to apologize from my part for the whole mess we got into a while ago; I realize that things could've been handled much better.

Very glad to have you back. You contribute so much. I again enjoy the way you school some of the new ones here on their lousy ideas which are similar to what we once had! Both you, Robo and I (others too)are still making improvements. Cheers.

 

[gman1971]

Thanks, I knew my Facebook storytelling crap wasn't so bad ... hahaha

G.

Gman,

BTW, also wanted to apologize from my part for the whole mess we got into a while ago; I realize that things could've been handled much better.

Very glad to have you back. You contribute so much. I again enjoy the way you school some of the new ones here on their lousy ideas which are similar to what we once had! Both you, Robo and I (others too)are still making improvements. Cheers.

 

[flat tire]

It is good to know that you can run the motor on 30S and not come apart, so, thanks for that; I will certainly take that into consideration when I upgrade the controller down the road.

Well, I was thinking about how 90 amps is 60 amps + 50%...of course it doesn't work that way in reverse.

Where did $500 come from? Anyway, you don't need even $300 to run 30S power. Someone into shunt modding like yourself could do it for well under $200, with your time added of course.

I'm glad you have conceded that my setup is superior from a pure performance standpoint. As far as drag goes, I don't care about top speed since I use this ebike on the trails and my time above 45 mph is rare. If low drag was my goal, I would build a recumbent, which, other things equal is a way superior platform to a trike anyhow since it has a much smaller frontal area.

I will be ordering a more powerful motor this week. RC would be my preference if I can get the reduction sorted out, they are so much lighter and more awesome than these adapted industrial motors.

 

[gman1971]

I never conceded anything, so don't get all delusional on me... there is nothing magical about less amps being good, but just like everything else in life, that is valid up to a certain point. An eBike is a fairly complex system, and while I understand the benefits of 33% less amp draw, it doesn't mean you need 33% less power to achieve equal speeds. Which is what aero would do instead; however, and fortunately for guys like me who love the art of aerodynamics as a former AE, custom made aero parts can't be easily bought or acquired like high end controllers...

From a pure performance standpoint mine is far superior to yours, make no mistake: in terms of raw performance numbers, top speed, acceleration, range, 0-60-0mph and whats most important, cost; so while you might be saving a few watts of heat in the wiring, your motor, based on those charts I posted earlier isn't running as efficient as it could; ever heard of magnetic saturation? If what you say was the case, then why bother using a larger motor with more copper on anything? Anyone could just use a 2 gram, mini-palm sized drone coreless motor and run it at 50000V, put out 1.2 million RPM to hit the power they need through reduction gearing... unfortunately for you, reality doesn't work that way. Things aren't perpetual motion machines or perfect energy conversion devices...

To give you an example, I can cruise at 40mph all day only on ~1kW, or 13.8A @ 72V; so running 33% less amps means that instead of 13.8A I would be using 9.2A, while at first it might look like a good thing (you're welcome to compute the amount of power loss difference for both current levels, using AWG8 wires that are less than 2 feet long) the heating at the motor from 9.2A vs 13.8A is about the same because your motor will be running out of its efficiency curve, so even though you read only 9.2A at the CA screen, or 1kW, the motor is actually converting about 100W less of that energy into usable power vs. mine which is running lower voltage and higher amps, so I might have a few extra watts loss of heat in the wires, but two orders of magnitude smaller of the 100W you're converting to heat at the motor due to efficiency loss. However, saving a few watts is certainly useless when you require thousands of watts (three orders of magnitude more) to overcome the aero/rolling resistance required to push your bike forward.

Again, you're welcome to come by anytime to see what a complete performance package on 18S is all about, I'll beat your 33% less amps eBike any day of the week on a race track, and a drag race, in a 0-50-0 (can't do 0-60-0 b/c your eBike doesn't get to 60) I also have exceptional brakes on my A-1 trike.

As for pricing, last I checked its around 90-100 dollar for each extra 6S pack (those ain't free), and then you add a 290+ dollar controller on top of that, so total comes out to be 490 additional dollars over an 18S setup using stock hardware, or 590 over a 12S setup using stock hardware. I've been making spreadsheets for all the hidden costs of building 3 eBikes and 2 eTrikes, all in the thousands of dollars range... it might seem cheap at a glance, but it simply ain't cheap. Most ppl that I know here run large capacity LiPo batteries too, 16000s or the 12000s, or even the 20,000s: those ain't cheap. And the 18650 cells/packs ain't cheap either...

You really seem like the guy who pretends that b/c his Prius yields 60MPG it can be compared as an equal in performance a Lamborghini Aventador b/c, you know, the Lambo has a combined 16MPG, therefore its less efficient... really?

G.

It is good to know that you can run the motor on 30S and not come apart, so, thanks for that; I will certainly take that into consideration when I upgrade the controller down the road.

Well, I was thinking about how 90 amps is 60 amps + 50%...of course it doesn't work that way in reverse.

Where did $500 come from? Anyway, you don't need even $300 to run 30S power. Someone into shunt modding like yourself could do it for well under $200, with your time added of course.

I'm glad you have conceded that my setup is superior from a pure performance standpoint. As far as drag goes, I don't care about top speed since I use this ebike on the trails and my time above 45 mph is rare. If low drag was my goal, I would build a recumbent, which, other things equal is a way superior platform to a trike anyhow since it has a much smaller frontal area.

I will be ordering a more powerful motor this week. RC would be my preference if I can get the reduction sorted out, they are so much lighter and more awesome than these adapted industrial motors.

 

[gman1971]

As far as drag goes, I don't care about top speed since I use this ebike on the trails and my time above 45 mph is rare. If low drag was my goal, I would build a recumbent, which, other things equal is a way superior platform to a trike anyhow since it has a much smaller frontal area.
I will be ordering a more powerful motor this week. RC would be my preference if I can get the reduction sorted out, they are so much lighter and more awesome than these adapted industrial motors.

Had to pick on this part on its own post:

"If I wanted, if I needed etc etc..." I am glad you're finally out of the C3000W thread with your new and shinny RC motor (lighter too), good for you! Throwing money at the problem seems to fit your style.

Are you aware that drag affects at ALL speeds while you're inside Earth's atmosphere?, acceleration is mostly determined by DRAG, even more so than power/weight ratio, b/c you know, if you can't accelerate anymore, then power/weight ratio doesn't mean squat! But don't worry, you can tell yourself whatever you want to soothe your ego: low drag, high drag, recumbents or RC motors. Dreaming, fortunately is for free... in the meantime, your Cyclone 30S is not superior to many of the regular eBikes I've seen on this thread running the stock hardware you deemed as shit. Just look at Dingus, Robocam or many others, they've pushed the stock hardware to its limits and still going strong on 20S...

Cheers mate, have fun in your RC endeavor... hopefully you won't start telling the RC outrunner crowd, where some guys probably been doing it for decades, that you know so much better than they do...

G.

 

[flat tire]

My goal here is to experiment, not put this stuff on the bike and call it a day. Yes, RC motors are awesome and but I'm afraid the RC crowd already understands the benefits of higher voltage...lol. Anyway RC motors have some of the highest specific outputs around, that's just a fact.

The trails I ride invite full throttle acceleration but not high top speed. I am literally racing the bike thru the woods. That's why I want less heat in the motor, so I don't blow it on the trails while constantly beating on the motor. As for my background, I ride motocross so you might say I have very little trouble using all of 6KW, as much of the time as possible. I'm not opposed to the idea of a fairing but for my current riding style, which averages under 20 mph with all kinds of crazy obstacles and very tight turns, it's just not that big of a deal.

Are you actually running 90 amps battery current or 90 amps phase current? Either way, how do you actually know? I'm basing all my power figures on what I programmed in the controller and verifying thru my cycle analyst.

 

[gman1971]

My goal here was to build a super efficient, ultra-reliable long range vehicle for daily commuting, grocery getting, go-karting, trail riding and adventure going, in all-terrain, all-weather conditions; from below zero F to summer temps, rain, snow, ice or shine. Basically a car replacement that was superfun to ride and not have to deal with traffic (most of the time) and not have to mess with it every day.

I made a choice about which parts to leave alone on my trike and which parts to constantly upgrade, and my decision was to keep upgrading the aero and the gearing with 10 dollar freewheels or plastic sheets every chance I could, so I can save 100s of watts; which begs the question, why swap expensive motors/controllers to save a few watts when one can easily save 100s of watts with 10 dollars worth of plastic?

Again, your 33% less amp draw is a few watts of saved energy at the wires, but at the likely cost of efficiency at the motor, which will create heat, at the motor itself; and again you're not taking into account aerodynamics that are potentially 100s of watts savings.

I know rather well what the RC crowd is up to, I've been building and flying large scale RC helicopters for well over a decade now; so you can spare me on the facts... and if you are interested, you can see some of my large scale helis on my YT channel... I love flight endurance...

Highest recorded current of 89.7A @ battery shunt, as read per CA. Why, you're gonna tell me now that my numbers are bogus too?

G.

My goal here is to experiment, not put this stuff on the bike and call it a day. Yes, RC motors are awesome and but I'm afraid the RC crowd already understands the benefits of higher voltage...lol. Anyway RC motors have some of the highest specific outputs around, that's just a fact.

The trails I ride invite full throttle acceleration but not high top speed. I am literally racing the bike thru the woods. That's why I want less heat in the motor, so I don't blow it on the trails while constantly beating on the motor. As for my background, I ride motocross so you might say I have very little trouble using all of 6KW, as much of the time as possible. I'm not opposed to the idea of a fairing but for my current riding style, which averages under 20 mph with all kinds of crazy obstacles and very tight turns, it's just not that big of a deal.

Are you actually running 90 amps battery current or 90 amps phase current? Either way, how do you actually know? I'm basing all my power figures on what I programmed in the controller and verifying thru my cycle analyst.

 

[flat tire]

We have different goals. As you can tell from my riding style, aero is really not that important. For a commuter like you have, it would be a top priority. I don't question your aero optimization, it is obviously very good if you have a top speed of 70 mph on 6KW.

I do not doubt your numbers either, they are perfectly reasonable. I was just curious how you verified. What is your phase current? Did you get rid of that awful soft start the stock controller is programmed with?

That's cool that you're into RC. I've been flying nitro planes since I was 10 and electric CP heli for about as long as you have! I'm mostly into FPV these days. No quads just helis!

As far as my own motor's efficiency, really I doubt peak efficiency is much less on 120 volts than 70--it will just be reached at a higher RPM, which I take full advantage of with gearing.

 

[gman1971]

We have different goals. As you can tell from my riding style, aero is really not that important. For a commuter like you have, it would be a top priority. I don't question your aero optimization, it is obviously very good if you have a top speed of 70 mph on 6KW.

I do not doubt your numbers either, they are perfectly reasonable. I was just curious how you verified. What is your phase current? Did you get rid of that awful soft start the stock controller is programmed with?

That's cool that you're into RC. I've been flying nitro planes since I was 10 and electric CP heli for about as long as you have! I'm mostly into FPV these days. No quads just helis!

As far as my own motor's efficiency, really I doubt peak efficiency is much less on 120 volts than 70--it will just be reached at a higher RPM, which I take full advantage of with gearing.

The thing that set me off was blatantly stating that "the stock stuff is no good" after stating how your 30S stuff was unbelievably awesome; your goals seem to align rather well with what other members here do too, like Robocam, or Dingus, who likes breaking the thing running crazy stunts @ 20S, on a stock controller @ 40A... they seem to be having performance to boot on a very modest budget...

Not RPM, as running the motor at high RPM with a relatively light load is a waste of energy, as explained on those charts I posted from the Russian forum... load is what determines your efficiency. You need to run the motor at the right load with the optimal voltage with the right gearing to hit the max efficiency zone. Otherwise you're just contributing with excess heat to make things like Maria hurricane a bit worse for everyone in its path... (I am not into tree hugging either, but waste of energy is a waste of energy regardless of your political affiliation)

The "really I doubt..." without hard data is kinda pointless, its not even an educated guess; now, based on those Excel charts from the Russian site, it certainly looks like you are losing at the very least 6% efficiency; and I would go as far as saying that seeing how the 33V rated vs 63, and using a distribution curve with peak efficiency in the 65volt range at the center you're, at least, 10% less efficient than you should; and then, since you're running the motor at no load due to all the reduction, you're even further from the efficiency peak. The truth is that 30S only gives you a few watts of savings at the wires, work the math and you'll see.

Cool, yes I like all kinds of RC too; and my scale helis are FPV as well, one with multiple cams... etc... I just don't post videos of them anymore after the FAA got all anal about it... it used to be so much better before the drone avalanche ruined it for everyone and their mother... I suspect that eBikes are headed in the same regulatory direction, especially with ppl running like hooligans on 11kW unlicensed eBikes in open roads... pissing everyone off...

G.

 

[flat tire]

I haven't seen the russian charts. Could you link those? I agree that higher RPM comes with higher losses making it unsuitable for low-load cruise...fortunately much of my pack's energy is spent accelerating at full throttle, so for me it's a worthwhile tradeoff.

 

[gman1971]

Has anyone seen Robocam lately?

 

[flat tire]

I found the charts: http://electrotransport.ru/ussr/index.php?topic=34238.0

Too bad he didn't test higher than 85v.

I'll probably try a trap wave controller on this thing to get rid of the hall issues. The motor is fast and powerful even with occasional stuttering but it's annoying having to drive around it.

 

[gman1971]

I found the charts: http://electrotransport.ru/ussr/index.php?topic=34238.0

Too bad he didn't test higher than 85v.

I'll probably try a trap wave controller on this thing to get rid of the hall issues. The motor is fast and powerful even with occasional stuttering but it's annoying having to drive around it.

Yes, I agree, but I don't think anyone has ever attempted to run the motor at nearly twice its rated voltage, even with a good current control FOC controller...

In all seriousness, If you want super power the RC outrunner motor might be a much better option, get a higher kV motor, run sensorless vector control and you should have all the RPMs you can ever dream of. The motor stuttering might also be the controller exceeding max RPM limit due to the number of poles, I don't recall the exact equation that determines the max RPM a motor can be run but there is one, that is yet another reason why I don't run the motor beyond 18S, the motor stutters and current spikes when load drops under 400W on the road... which makes it feel like bouncing off the rev limiter on my cars... if that happens on 75V on mode #3 then I can only imagine how bad the stuttering problem might be at higher voltages...

G.

 

[flat tire]

erpm = pole pairs * rpm the cyclone has 12 magnets or 6 pole pairs. My controller supposedly does 50k+, maybe 65K erpm or 8,300+ rpm. The motor is like 50KV afaik so I shouldn't be exceeding that.

It looks like the Astroflight 3220 would be a badass motor. Not sure which controller I'd use though. I have no experience using RC ESCs for ebikes. I'd like to overvolt that motor for really serious power.