New Jersey - When is a bike not a bike?

[dogman dan]

Just took the time to review the whole thread. One minuite I'm convinced she's riding a legal bike, the next I'm convinced she is on a moped and needs a valid licence.

One thing is clear, she's still gonna be screwed in that town for quite some time. Perhaps all the bad stuff goes back to the drunk cop hitting her, or maybe like it was for me, it was simply other activites that have her on the cops radar.

Unbelievable she still wants to ride that thing in that town. She should pedal a comfy recumbent trike at this point perhaps.

 

[motorino magnet]

same with me...cops made a mistake one day and got hauled over the carpet cause both my parents were www2 vets.

they are sulking around and hoping to nail me and some other vets just to "get even"...

punks don't know how to play...

thank god for the right to bear arms to keep em honest.

 

[Mudduck]

I wish you all the luck it the world with your fight..OC cops are a pain in the ass.I live 10 minutes away.I once got a parking ticket checking the surf I used a bad word and the cop heard it and he arested me...I'm waiting for my kit from cellman to install on my cruiser,but I want to be stealth..I agree with most replys your scooter looks like a moped..Jeff van drew is a really good guy to have in your corner.

 

[sangesf]

I agree with most replys your scooter looks like a moped...

And THAT'S the problem, right there... LOL

Ya see... He called it a scooter... It's "supposed" to be an electric bike...
If someone from an electric bicycle forum calls her "e-bike" a "scooter" by mistake, kinda proves the point!
(You know the saying... "If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck..")

We all know that deep down (like someone else said) that she wanted it to look like she was riding a scooter (hence making it look like she had a license) instead of someone who lost theirs or couldn't afford a car.
(and why couldn't she spend the money on a mobility scooter, if her back hurts that much? I'm sure it would have been close to the same price...)

Look at it this way... She says she can't pedal as it hurts her back, so isn't she technically riding her "e-bike" like a scooter anyways?

(She better hope they don't change the law to a pedal assist only system...)

 

[Mudduck]

No mistake here it says in big letters X-TREME SCOOTER if I was her I would change it to X-TREME E BIKE..NOT a scooter.

 

[Alan B]

Looks like a job for an electrically assisted recumbent bicycle.

 

[sangesf]

No mistake here it says in big letters X-TREME SCOOTER if I was her I would change it to X-TREME E BIKE..NOT a scooter.

Actually it says, "X-Tremendous ScooterS...

And my point again... Everyone I've shown that picture and asked what's she riding..
Yep, you guessed it.. They said.. A Scooter.

When I tell them it's an "electric bicycle", they laugh at me and say, "No, that's a scooter"

 

[dkw12002]

You would think if New Jersey doesn't have their own laws specific to e-bikes, they would just use Federal Law, but instead they just don't recognize it as an e-bike and call it a moped. In Texas, a moped costs the same to insure, register, inspect. You don't have to have a motorcycle endorsement is the only difference, but at least we have e-bike laws...not more than 750watt/36volt/20mph. If that lady's e-bike is 700 watts, I doubt she is able to go over 20 mph with those little tires and all that weight. Anyway, I rode my fastest e-bike today and was going along 20 mph...maybe 22 which it goes on a flat street and two guys on road bikes pass me up and one of them says, "That's what I need." Obviously he didn't cause in about 3 minutes, they were out of sight. That 20 mph limit seems even slower now.

 

[boppinbob]

In Massachusetts we do, it's called a moped. Speed up to 25mph. A registration sticker is required every two years at a cost of $40. You must have a valid driver's license to operate one AND wear a helmet.

We also have a new class called "Small Motor Vehicle". These can travel up to 40mph but they must be certified by NHTSA as a motorcycle. This last one is good for two and three-wheeled vehicles, including those with an enclosed cab. (Think Chinese three-wheeled "cars".)

Massachusetts is almost a communist state within the states. I would rather die than have to live there. The govt. leaders there are no more than union puppets.
Regards,
Robert Pate, Houston Tx

 

[lcyn]

This is exactly what is wrong with public perception of ebikes. That thing is a scooter, not an ebike. Having fake useless pedals does not make it a bicycle.
Also, I really wish people would stop over powering conventional bikes, and if they do, to not continue to refer to them as Ebikes. The overvolters are ruining it for those of us who want to be able to ride a true ebike, a bicycle with electric assist, and not be harassed, or have restrictive laws enacted. I would hope that ES would help to further the cause of ebikes, and maybe create a separate section for overvolted creations that use a bike frame for an electric motorcycle. If we truly want to have ebikes become more mainstream, lets step away from the overvolting and try to help establish real ebikes alongside conventional bikes. Wires hanging all over the place is not attractive, and can be intimidating to conventional bicycle riders.

 

[MadRhino]

Did muscle cars ruined anything for the common family cars, or did racing motorcycles ruined anything for the 50cc out there?
You're talking through your hat, and if you believe that legal commercial Ebikes have any chance to become popular anytime soon in America, you are dreaming.

In fact, legal Ebikes are making a bad reputation for themselves already. The "overvolters" are not riding the bike paths to scare the mums and kids, they behave like the motorcycles that they are and if the law changes because of them, it will be to consider them as motorcycles and this will not change anything for the legal Ebikes.

 

[sn0wchyld]

This is exactly what is wrong with public perception of ebikes. That thing is a scooter, not an ebike. Having fake useless pedals does not make it a bicycle.
Also, I really wish people would stop over powering conventional bikes, and if they do, to not continue to refer to them as Ebikes. The overvolters are ruining it for those of us who want to be able to ride a true ebike, a bicycle with electric assist, and not be harassed, or have restrictive laws enacted. I would hope that ES would help to further the cause of ebikes, and maybe create a separate section for overvolted creations that use a bike frame for an electric motorcycle. If we truly want to have ebikes become more mainstream, lets step away from the overvolting and try to help establish real ebikes alongside conventional bikes. Wires hanging all over the place is not attractive, and can be intimidating to conventional bicycle riders.

I think what you'd find is that the 'seperate section' would be for the conventional 'legal' ebikes... most people on ES arn't building legal bikes, you dont see many sub 1kw bikes either. those that do have legal bikes are usually living in places that have fairly lax or even non existent laws.

and some of us already have restrictive laws in place, so restrictive that making a 100% legal ebike is near impossible, or at best so weak as to be useless. I was very close to not bothering to ever build an ebike when I found out what the 'legal' limits were, as I wanted to stay legal and still have something useful. at 200w peak (and given the way they measured it in previous court cases) it simply would not be worth the trouble. What would you suggest people like me do? go with a ICE bike, where I could 100% legally have a 3+kw engine? no thanks.

+1 on MR's comments too.

I gotta agree with you on one point though... that thing is a scooter more than a ebike. If you cant pedal it comfortably on flat ground for a few km without dying then your not really in 'bike' territory any more. I wouldn't want to even try or even be seen trying to pedal that thing.

 

[Lock]

If you cant pedal it comfortably on flat ground for a few km without dying then your not really in 'bike' territory any more.

It's the simple designed max speed of 20mph that does keep it in "bike territory"...

tks
lock

 

[dogman dan]

According to this webpage, it's a moped, plain and simple. http://www.nj.gov/mvc/Licenses/MotorizedBicycle.htm

That's on NJ.gov, not some sellers website that quotes the fed law. She's simply illegal without the licence and proper helmet, etc.

At no point will the federal definition of an ebike ever apply to use on the streets in any state. It's simply not a state or local motor vehicle statute. Some states have more or less used the same criteria in their state mv statutes, but NJ says it's a moped.

Overvolted hot rod "ebikes" will not ruin it for everybody everywhere. But they could ruin it localy if the riders are jerks.

I don't support those who use them on the street illegaly, especially for commuting at 40 mph. Have your cake, but don't eat it so publicly is what I mean I guess. Hoon around in places other than the bike trail, or out in traffic. I dig it that you can sneak out with it early in the morning or something, but I don't like to see vids of people in the USA riding around like they are a legal vehicle on a homemade unregistered motorcycle. It will surely result in at least some local laws being passed that severely restrict people that do comply with 20 mph. State vehicle statutes will change very slowly, but a city or village ordinance can pass in minuites by less than 10 people voting to shut up one person who hates ebikes and won't go away. You may never see it coming, just wake up one morning to find the city council just screwed you last night.

Have your fast ebike, just ride it nice out in public is all I'm saying. Once on the dirt roads, or alone on dawn patrol, or on a track, let er rip there.

 

[Diamondback]

couldn't have said it better myself.

 

[dogman dan]

One last rant.

Ride nice on the "legal" ebike in public as well. A jerk on a 300w bike can get ebikes just as banned from the safer bike trail routes as a 40 mph club bike.

 

[Lock]

It'd be nice if someone from NJ could contact Assemblyman Ruben J. Ramos Jr.
http://www.njleg.state.nj.us/members/BIO.asp?Leg=293

Ask him what happened to his Bill 2581 from 2010:
http://www.njleg.state.nj.us/2010/Bills/A3000/2581_I1.HTM

STATEMENT
This bill permits the use of low-speed electric bicycles upon the roadways and bicycle paths in the State. A low-speed electric bicycle is defined as a two-wheeled vehicle with fully operable pedals for human propulsion and an electric motor of less than 100 pounds and 750 watts, whose maximum speed on a paved level surface is less than 20 miles per hour.

...doesn't show up in the lists of current bills now...

Lock

 

[Ykick]

One last rant.

Ride nice on the "legal" ebike in public as well. A jerk on a 300w bike can get ebikes just as banned from the safer bike trail routes as a 40 mph club bike.

Absolutely, NYC delivery riders mostly use "legal" spec bikes but they're being targeted for bans right now. Because, they ride on the sidewalks, against one way traffic and roll through clearly painted/marked crowded crosswalks. It makes me cringe... They're not fast but they're very obnoxious and it's gonna screw it up for all of us.

 

[lcyn]

That is very true. It is riding like a jerk that can cause problems and repercussions. Even a low powered bike can be ridden improperly. One problem we are seeing is an increase in the number of riders of all types of bikes, and a flaunting of the laws which causes blowback. I live in a university town, and so we have many students on bikes, many who fail to obey traffic laws. I have always maintained that an ebike is inherently safer, since with an ebike one is much more likely to stop at red lights, etc., since acceleration is so much easier on an ebike. It is all about courtesy and respect.

 

[lazarus2405]

I'm in western NYS these days, so whenever I'm on a functional ebike I'm breaking the law anyway. But I have never stuck to a voltage/speed/power limit for any legal reason. I'm one of those "overvolters", but I believe strongly in behaving like a bicycle if I want to be treated as one. Yesterday I took a ride on the boardwalk and bike trail with my wife to enjoy the sunshine. It was crowded with cyclists, runners, walkers, families with strollers, and the like. On that seven-mile ride, we had an average speed of 9mph. My pack voltage ended up higher than when I started due to using regen to control my speed on the downhill parts. I never got a second glance, from anyone, because I was a bike, where someone expected to see a bike, behaving as a bike was expected to behave.

Now, the machine I lovingly refer to as an "electric deathcycle" is a full suspension 5" travel trail bike, with a 5303 in a 20" wheel in the rear, a commuter bag on the handlebars, and an enormous trunk. It's whacky-looking around here, and people aren't sure what to make of it. It certainly isn't stealth. That said, if I asked someone what it was, nearly everyone would call it a "bike" (though they might also throw in "strange", "crazy", or "odd"). If Denise rode her "bike" on the same path, someone would have called the cops, plain and simple. If I was the cop in question, I might be willing to write the ticket. Even if she was slow and courteous and safe and controlled around all of the pedestrians and their children. She and I would have been just as guilty of breaking the law as I was, to an equal extent. But because her "ebike" looks like a duck, and walks like a duck, I'm gonna call it a duck!

Ebikes that are overvolted and can do >40mph and are crazy powerful aren't the problem at this point, because the people who put the time and effort into building such a machine typically are responsible enough to know when they should and shouldn't use that power. I have no fear of those people making a bad name for ebikes. People riding scooters with token pedals and trying to call them "ebikes", however, will hurt the public perception... especially if they're without a license due to a DUI.

 

[sangesf]

It'd be nice if someone from NJ could contact Assemblyman Ruben J. Ramos Jr.
http://www.njleg.state.nj.us/members/BIO.asp?Leg=293

Ask him what happened to his Bill 2581 from 2010:
http://www.njleg.state.nj.us/2010/Bills/A3000/2581_I1.HTM

STATEMENT
This bill permits the use of low-speed electric bicycles upon the roadways and bicycle paths in the State. A low-speed electric bicycle is defined as a two-wheeled vehicle with fully operable pedals for human propulsion and an electric motor of less than 100 pounds and 750 watts, whose maximum speed on a paved level surface is less than 20 miles per hour.

...doesn't show up in the lists of current bills now...

Lock

Here is your answer lock... Re-quoted from an earlier post of mine..


Either way.. CURRENTLY.. The "Bill" that was "introduced" never went anywhere...

It was introduced during the 2010-2011 legislation and pushed to another "commission" and sat there.

That's what they call a "dead bill".. If any of you remember the old "School House rock" commercials, "Yes, I'm only a bill, I keep sitting here on capital hill..". Bills are introduced and if they are "truly enacted", they become a LAW..

That did NOT happen to A2581.. It never became the law...

In order for what Denise wants to happen, they have to create a NEW bill and hope it gets passed through the next time..

Here is the part that currently shows why she's not legal yet... (Stolen from Dogman's post..)

by dogman » Mon Mar 12, 2012 7:36 am
According to this webpage, it's a moped, plain and simple. http://www.nj.gov/mvc/Licenses/MotorizedBicycle.htm

That's on NJ.gov, not some sellers website that quotes the fed law. She's simply illegal without the licence and proper helmet, etc.

Regardless of her particular vehicle's speed, it's considered a Moped in NJ and mopeds in NJ require a License, which she does not have...

I think the Judge was nice enough, so far, to give her a break..
Again, I'll say, if she had a "normal" looking ebike, there wouldn't have been any problems, nor would they have even given her a second look.. The main one, in my opinion, is two-fold..
1.) It looks like a scooter.
2.) Written on the side is X-TREME SCOOTERS.
(Hence the, "If it looks like a duck....")

 

[Lock]

Amusing news item from Lawrence (Trenton) NJ:
http://www.trentonian.com/article/2...h-annual-green-expo-march-17&pager=full_story

Lawrence to host 5th annual green expo March 17
By Joan Galler
jgaller@trentonian.com
Posted: 03/13/12 01:16 pm

LAWRENCE - Saturday is St. Patrick’s Day, a day for “wearing of the green,” or in bucolic Lawrence Township’s case, a day for holding the 5th annual “green” home and energy expo at Lawrence High School.

From 10 a.m. to 4 p.m., area residents can get the latest practical information about energy-efficient home and transportation improvements, thanks to event organizer Sustainable Lawrence.

SNIP

Visitors can learn how to build an electric bike at the 1 p.m. workshop. One lucky attendee will win everything needed to build an electric bike. Donate your old bike to the Trenton Bike Exchange by bringing it to the parking lot.

l0ck

 

[Anamelesssomebody]

Ahhh, posted here in a link instead of where I wanted to in this thread. http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=37672 Dang I miss my glasses. Sorry maybe the two should be combined ther're the same thing mostly. This subject gets debated to death over and over when what we think means nothing, it's the officer on the spot who decides how he/she will enforce what regulation he/she wants. Until there is no more gray area, right now they control the gray.

 

[dogman dan]

True enough. It's that way when it's black and white too. A cop can easily misunderstand the law, and ticket you silly for legal stuff. Let the judge, who could be equally uninformed of obscure statutes sort it out.

But look a lot more like a bike, and ride nice works fine nearly everywhere. You don't even have to be totaly stealth, just loose the Scooter decals all over it look.