New "Lingbei MM28.250 torque sensor mid drive"

[dojrude]

Had an email from okfeet to tell me the 48v 500w version is back in stock for anyone waiting to order.

I'm unfortunately stuck on the fence between this and the TSDZ2 at the moment.
The TSDZ2 has a total cadence that I think will be too low for me, where as the Lingbei has issues with the way the torque/cadence sensor is implemented and that firmware updates need the motor to be opened.

 

[81forest]

Had an email from okfeet to tell me the 48v 500w version is back in stock for anyone waiting to order.

I'm unfortunately stuck on the fence between this and the TSDZ2 at the moment.
The TSDZ2 has a total cadence that I think will be too low for me, where as the Lingbei has issues with the way the torque/cadence sensor is implemented and that firmware updates need the motor to be opened.

I’m right there with you. Seems like the tsdz2 issues are getting sorted out on the other thread, but I really like this one!

 

[casainho]

I'm unfortunately stuck on the fence between this and the TSDZ2 at the moment.
The TSDZ2 has a total cadence that I think will be too low for me, where as the Lingbei has issues with the way the torque/cadence sensor is implemented and that firmware updates need the motor to be opened.

For what I could understand, LB motor has max speed of 40km/h while TSDZ2 has 45km/h. Since both of them use the same max motor current of 18 amps, could that be that LB motor has more torque because of a different internal gear ratio?? And if it gives max lower speed, it also does lower cadence, right?

See that TSDZ2 can be used with 52V (14S battery pack) and that will give 7% more power/torque than 48V and 7% more cadence. Some users also want to try use with 15S battery pack and that would be 15% more torque and 15% more cadence.

 

[dojrude]

And if it gives max lower speed, it also does lower cadence, right?

My understanding is that the specs quote the cadence at 120RPM.

Fantasy2 has also quoted that it's far too easy to ride with this motor at 45km/h when putting in hardly any effort and that the power levels translate as follows;

Some speed info:
PAS lvl 1 feels most like torque only. Not strong, more like compensating the extra motor and battery weight.
PAS lvl 2 brings me to 31km/hr
PAS lvl 3 to 34km/hr
PAS lvl 4 to 40km/hr
PAS lvl 5 to 40+

 

[fantasy2]

Had an email from okfeet to tell me the 48v 500w version is back in stock for anyone waiting to order.

I'm unfortunately stuck on the fence between this and the TSDZ2 at the moment.
The TSDZ2 has a total cadence that I think will be too low for me, where as the Lingbei has issues with the way the torque/cadence sensor is implemented and that firmware updates need the motor to be opened.

They are going to release several firmware versions in the coming weeks with different Torque/Cadence ratios for us to try. So we can have a try which works best. We're still pushing the manufacturer to release code(maybe under NDA) so we can enable programming settings over the existing cables.

For what I could understand, LB motor has max speed of 40km/h while TSDZ2 has 45km/h. Since both of them use the same max motor current of 18 amps, could that be that LB motor has more torque because of a different internal gear ratio?? And if it gives max lower speed, it also does lower cadence, right?

See that TSDZ2 can be used with 52V (14S battery pack) and that will give 7% more power/torque than 48V and 7% more cadence. Some users also want to try use with 15S battery pack and that would be 15% more torque and 15% more cadence.

LB has a 40km/hr limit defined in the display. This is not a hard limit and the throttle quickly pulls to this speed. I don't think the motor is running at max RPM at this speed as I can pedal the same speed in a lower gear(but means I have to pedal like crazy lol).

Do you have a picture of the inner parts of the tongsheng motor? I think i've seen a teardown picture somewhere and remember TSDZ has a much lower pole count and the motor is smaller in diameter overall. This can explain torque, and a different maximum motor speed(spec is 120rpm).
Here is a picture of the LB: https://s15.postimg.cc/w85j586ij/IMG_20180528_220228_1.jpg

The display has a 36v and 48v option, the internal caps are rated at 63Volt. If there is demand, they sure can add higher voltage options.

I’m right there with you. Seems like the tsdz2 issues are getting sorted out on the other thread, but I really like this one!

This motor is just on the market for a few months, compared to the TSDZ being available for a while(2 years?). The motor is still being refined by the manufacturer so if you're willing to wait or take a small gamble as early adopter, you could end up with a really cool motor.

 

[casainho]

Do you have a picture of the inner parts of the tongsheng motor? I think i've seen a teardown picture somewhere and remember TSDZ has a much lower pole count and the motor is smaller in diameter overall. This can explain torque, and a different maximum motor speed(spec is 120rpm).
Here is a picture of the LB: https://s15.postimg.cc/w85j586ij/IMG_20180528_220228_1.jpg

On TSDZ2, both 36V and 48v motors has 8 poles, so they are equal to that motor you show on the picture -- 16 magnets.

 

[casainho]

Do you have a picture of the inner parts of the tongsheng motor? I think i've seen a teardown picture somewhere and remember TSDZ has a much lower pole count and the motor is smaller in diameter overall. This can explain torque, and a different maximum motor speed(spec is 120rpm).

Both 2 different motors of TSDZ2 of 36V or 48V, have 8 poles = 16 magnets so LB motor may have the same electric speed limit.

TSDZ2 motor controller and LB motor controller (considering the 48V on both) gives max of 18 amps so the electric power is the same for both so I can't see how one may have a bigger torque than other! Unless one have an higher internal gear ratio and that way will rotate at lower speed and that also means lower pedal cadence.

Sometimes there are a lot of marketing bullshit - let's discover if this is the case.

 

[notger]

Some users also want to try use with 15S battery pack and that would be 15% more torque and 15% more cadence.

I think i remember reading about Bafang BBS Users trying to go with 15s Liion = fully charges 63 Volts.

What i remember is that the Bafang configuration software would not allow anything above 62 Volts and controller would show up an error.

15s works as long as the total pack voltage stays under 62v else you'll get error code 7 "over voltage" shown.

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=68110&start=250#p1128414

An solution was to not fullyfullyfully charge the Pack ...so leave it under 62 Volts ~4,1 Volt per cell.


? But who knows how similare those controllers are, but pretty sure that the also use 60V Caps like lots of 48Volt Controller.

Im interested in this option cause pretty much every ebike configuration i use is around 5s, 10s, 15s, 20s (use 5s Packs in s and p)

So there is no Lingbei config-Software out now, right, just firmare to update.

Who is it actually @fantasy2 who you are writing to in lingbei topics, could you post an mailadress here please.

greets Notger

 

[notger]

The BBS software doesnt seem to work with it, there are alot of differences... of course someone more savvy may be able to make it work, but I think a complete re-work of software would be in order, considering the torque sensing differences etc..

Did anyone actually try to connect the lingbei with bafangs software ? or is it just a guess.
I mean sure the torque option will not appear but maybe all the other options are changeable ?

 

[dojrude]

LB has a 40km/hr limit defined in the display. This is not a hard limit and the throttle quickly pulls to this speed. I don't think the motor is running at max RPM at this speed as I can pedal the same speed in a lower gear(but means I have to pedal like crazy lol).

Do you mean the motor goes faster than the 40km/h limit or do you mean you can manually exceed the 40km/h limit by pedalling hard down a steep hill?

Can this software limit be removed/changed on the controller like it can on the TSDZ2?

Does the display even have a settings menu for this kind of thing?

 

[dojrude]

They are going to release several firmware versions in the coming weeks with different Torque/Cadence ratios for us to try. So we can have a try which works best. We're still pushing the manufacturer to release code(maybe under NDA) so we can enable programming settings over the existing cables.

Are they going to be adding a way to program the units without cracking the motor open?

 

[fantasy2]

LB has a 40km/hr limit defined in the display. This is not a hard limit and the throttle quickly pulls to this speed. I don't think the motor is running at max RPM at this speed as I can pedal the same speed in a lower gear(but means I have to pedal like crazy lol).

Do you mean the motor goes faster than the 40km/h limit or do you mean you can manually exceed the 40km/h limit by pedalling hard down a steep hill?

Can this software limit be removed/changed on the controller like it can on the TSDZ2?

Does the display even have a settings menu for this kind of thing?

On my bike, the motor goes 40km/hr on a flat road using only the throttle without pedaling. When I start pedaling it just adds it to the 40km/hr. I have not tried pedaling really hard on a steep hill. I find it too scary to go faster than 45km/hr..

Are they going to be adding a way to program the units without cracking the motor open?

Flashing the firmware without cracking the motor open won't work. But we're trying to push that you can change settings(current, support ratio's, etc) in the same way as bafang motors without having to crack it open.

 

[casainho]

Here is the motor pedal cadence limits as also motor max speed RPM -- the same should apply to LB or any other motor:

Running TSDZ2 at 62.2V
It runs without any problems. I would like to test with 53V but my lab power supply max voltage is 62.2V.

TSDZ2 max pedal cadence
TSDZ2 max recommended RPM is 4100. I can't say what is the max pedal cadence but it should be easy to calculate if anyone knows what is the gear ratio between the motor and the pedal wheel -- can someone please help here?

Running TSDZ2 at 63V - 15S battery
15S * 4.2 (volts per each cell) = 63 volts.
I think it can be done but will be for sure on the limit edge, a the voltage capacitors of the motor controller are rated at 63V.

The advantage of running at higher voltage should be mainly for having more power, like with a 15S charged battery it should power the motor with 1134 watts (63 * 18 amps) as the speed can't be increased from the 4100 RPMs.

My notes about the video where I tested, running with our own developed OpenSource firmware, TSDZ2 running at 52.2V and 5600 RPMs:

I put my lab power supply at 62.2V, the max that it can gives. The firmware was controlling the current to not be higher than about 3 amps (power supply limit is 5 amps only).

Also the motor speed in ERPS was limited to 750 but I can see on the power supply (green LED) that after about 550 ERPS, the motor starts to asking to much current and being highly inefficient. This is because PWM frequency is at 16KHz and it will draw the FOC phase voltages wave signals with 28 points - any higher ERPS speed will mean lower number of points and that should distort the FOC voltage wave signal.

The TSDZ2 motor has 8 pole pairs and this means that the RPM speed was:
- at recommended max limit of 550 ERPS: 4166 RPMS
- at the tested very inefficient limit of 750 ERPS (as seen on the video): 5600 RPMS

On my regular ebike, at 4000 RPMS I can get easily about 38km/h (but this speed depends on the bicycle gear ratio I choose to use).

[youtube]GzHg8fCl1Nc[/youtube]

 

[Uturn]

any news on that Lingbei Motor or from their responsive team?
Did they yet release improved firmware with better torque sensing?
What is the max pedal cadence this motor can support?
The motor seems to be heavier (4.0kg) and wider (158mm axle) compared to the tsdz2.

 

[wheelyphased]

My understanding from the factory is that a firmware upgrade to address the balance of torque vs. speed sensing is complete but the software is not. They will complete that next month. The magnets have been changed as well. I don't know if this will be the final firmware or whether they will respond to further feedback, they know of this thread.
If you order now, it ships with the previous software which is upgradeable if you have the link and the skills. I don't.
I have just ordered one to try and I'm waiting for their software to complete before shipping. They have assured me that the revised software accommodates 52V/14S which clinches the deal for me and relegates TSDZ2 into second place with noise & blue gear issues.
The quoted MM28.250 weight is 3.6kg but I don't know if that's with chainring or whether it's now changed with magnets. I don't really care because it's kilos lighter than my Bafang for my next build and appears at least from the images back in this thread to hit the sweet spot between constructional detail and weight. Q factor is similarly irrelevant to me using Lekkie busbars & long legs used to BBSHD.
Cadence? No idea what the changes will actually make. I'll know next month for sure but @casainho is very likely right.

 

[81forest]

My understanding from the factory is that a firmware upgrade to address the balance of torque vs. speed sensing is complete but the software is not. They will complete that next month. The magnets have been changed as well. I don't know if this will be the final firmware or whether they will respond to further feedback, they know of this thread.
If you order now, it ships with the previous software which is upgradeable if you have the link and the skills. I don't.
I have just ordered one to try and I'm waiting for their software to complete before shipping. They have assured me that the revised software accommodates 52V/14S which clinches the deal for me and relegates TSDZ2 into second place with noise & blue gear issues.
The quoted MM28.250 weight is 3.6kg but I don't know if that's with chainring or whether it's now changed with magnets. I don't really care because it's kilos lighter than my Bafang for my next build and appears at least from the images back in this thread to hit the sweet spot between constructional detail and weight. Q factor is similarly irrelevant to me using Lekkie busbars & long legs used to BBSHD.
Cadence? No idea what the changes will actually make. I'll know next month for sure but @casainho is very likely right.

Great news. I am in the same boat; I will order one of these as soon as the above issues are sorted out (I do not have the skills or interest in opening the motor to do any mods). Watching this thread for updates!

 

[Uturn]

the sales rep at OKfeet is not very confident about self upgrading the firmware: Says that'll not be possible. The upgraded version is expected next month. The website www.lingbeimotor.com does not seem to work well.

 

[eyebyesickle]

Some thoughts and questions, most already covered:

- All motors since June had new magnets

- What is the torque sensor capability? Dual Sided? Max value measurable - and in what increments? (Doesnt seem as high quality or capable as the Tongsheng, but still we need to know the limits)

- Can we push to 22a? Only 20a? I'll be playing with the programming values soon...( I am thinking this will be middle ground between Tongsheng and Bafang)

- I have the 52v programming, and can flash motors to 36, 48, or 52, and then it needs to be set in the display for proper reading - next I will be playing with the amperage as well

- New firmware comes next month to balance the torque and speed sensing functions better

- I need to test all the displays. I have 4, but there is 5 or 6 - I didn't bother with lower end displays. Also I hope the Eggrider V2 can work with it.

Thats all from me now... just thinking about it. Thanks to everyone for sharing their thoughts and findings!

 

[Hillhater]

Here is the motor pedal cadence limits as also motor max speed RPM -- the same should apply to LB or any other motor:

TSDZ2 max pedal cadence
TSDZ2 max recommended RPM is 4100. I can't say what is the max pedal cadence but it should be easy to calculate if anyone knows what is the gear ratio between the motor and the pedal wheel -- can someone please help here?

My notes about the video where I tested, running with our own developed OpenSource firmware, TSDZ2 running at 52.2V and 5600 RPMs:


The TSDZ2 motor has 8 pole pairs and this means that the RPM speed was:
- at recommended max limit of 550 ERPS: 4166 RPMS

Unless there is some other information,.. the TSDZ2 gives a max cadence of 90 at 4100 motor rpm ?
that would suggest a gear reduction ratio of 45.5 : 1
...And the LB01 is stated to have a 23:1 reduction ratio and a max cadence of 120,.. which would imply a max motor rpm of 2760 rpm, and a much higher torque at the motor than the TS !
its apparent from the pictures that the LB has a much larger diameter motor than the TS , which is normal for high torque.
So these are very different motors and gear trains the LB having much more motor torque that is not reduced as much in the gearing.

..It might also explain why the LB needs a bigger blue gear to handle the higher torque at the motor shaft ?

 

[casainho]

Here is the motor pedal cadence limits as also motor max speed RPM -- the same should apply to LB or any other motor:

TSDZ2 max pedal cadence
TSDZ2 max recommended RPM is 4100. I can't say what is the max pedal cadence but it should be easy to calculate if anyone knows what is the gear ratio between the motor and the pedal wheel -- can someone please help here?

My notes about the video where I tested, running with our own developed OpenSource firmware, TSDZ2 running at 52.2V and 5600 RPMs:


The TSDZ2 motor has 8 pole pairs and this means that the RPM speed was:
- at recommended max limit of 550 ERPS: 4166 RPMS

Unless there is some other information,.. the TSDZ2 gives a max cadence of 90 at 4100 motor rpm ?
that would suggest a gear reduction ratio of 45.5 : 1
...And the LB01 is stated to have a 23:1 reduction ratio and a max cadence of 120,.. which would imply a max motor rpm of 2760 rpm, and a much higher torque at the motor than the TS !
its apparent from the pictures that the LB has a much larger diameter motor than the TS , which is normal for high torque.
So these are very different motors and gear trains the LB having much more motor torque that is not reduced as much in the gearing.

..It might also explain why the LB needs a bigger blue gear to handle the higher torque at the motor shaft ?

After that message, someone calculated the internal gear ratio of TSDZ2.
Also, I am running the 36V motor with a 48V battery and I got 55km/h on road and I was pedalling at 120 RPMs (because TSDZ2 firmware sends pedals cadence to LCD3 and so I can look at that value in real time). But I guess the motor was running with bad efficiency at that 55km/h.

 

[casainho]

its apparent from the pictures that the LB has a much larger diameter motor than the TS , which is normal for high torque.
So these are very different motors and gear trains the LB having much more motor torque that is not reduced as much in the gearing.

Can't have higher torque if it uses just the same electric power: 48V 18 amps.

 

[Hillhater]

Can't have higher torque if it uses just the same electric power: 48V 18 amps.

are you suggesting that all 48v motors at 18 amps have the same torque output ?
Torque( NM), Power (W) and rpm (R/sec) are all inter related.
Ignoring losses...if you have the same power (Watts) and the same Torque, then you will have the same rpm.
IE. In simple terms, power = torque x rpm ( x a constant factor)
With these motors we have the same power but different rpms ( 40% lower on the LB) so you must have different torque (40% higher )
All the above is based on the info posted in these threads regatding motor rpms which i do not believe have been verified by direct measurement at known voltages ?

 

[casainho]

Can't have higher torque if it uses just the same electric power: 48V 18 amps.

are you suggesting that all 48v motors at 18 amps have the same torque output ?

Yes I am and assuming the same internal gear ratio. If the gear ration is higher, then the pedals will rotate slower / lower cadence.

 

[Hillhater]

But we are talking about the motor power/ torque.
The gear ratio has nothing to do with the theoretical torque produced by the motor at a fixed voltage and amperage
And we know the Lb gearing is 23:1 (manufacturer stated and confirmed)....
If the TS motor max speed is confirmed at 4100 as you have indicated, that together with the stated and measured max cadence of 90 at 48 volts...tells us the TS has a much higher gear ratio 38:1
Edit...
I Just rechecked the gear tooth counts on the TS unit and it gives a 38:1 ratio.
9 T on the motor shaft,..36 T on the blue gear.
10T on the steel spur gear,..95T on the large ring gear that drives the crank spindle.
Which now suggests that the 90 cadence that we have measured (unloaded, @ 48v ) corresponds to a motor rpm of 3420 rpm
And at the "rated" motor speed of 4000rpm we would see a cadence of 105 .

Appologies for this confusing the Lingbei motor thread, but it is important to realise there are significant differences mechanically and electrically.

 

[casainho]

But we are talking about the motor power/ torque.
The gear ratio has nothing to do with the theoretical torque produced by the motor at a fixed voltage and amperage

So, correct me if I am wrong: both motors use the same electric power and so both should produce the same torque.