New to Forums / Intro and Advice requested

[SpasticOscillator]

Hi All !!! [ From Australia ; NSW ]
I have been a superficial occasional lurker here for some time, probably ~ a year .
I'm familiar with the recurring names and with the posts of some of the great contributors to this awesome forum,
and sing your praises to friends [as in "you should check out these endless sphere forums" , etc. ]

I usually show off the brilliant videos from Recumpence [how do you make those things in that tiny workshop???], LFP , DogManDan, Cedric Lynch, etc. etc. [too many names] to friends and etc. to try and spark more interest.

Basically , I think some of you guys are totally brilliant and very admirable ... but that's probably enough smoke up your back-ends for the moment lol.

I've had some heavy study and work commitments the past 6 months - or year really - [set to continue],
and have not really had time for getting involved in community [unfortunately ! ],
or to put together the kind of bike I've had in mind ;
so I've just occasionally bumbled about here admiring,
without deep investigation ;

I've still been very inspired looking at you guys ; your threads and videos and developments.
I've been wanting to stick an e-bike [with some guts] together for a while now.

Australia has somewhat recently launched a public-transport electronic PEOPLE TRACKING system ,
which I'm uncomfortable with on principle, called "The Opal Card System" , with no option to remain a citizen with private movements on public transport ; and since our populace are mostly cattle-like when it comes to privacy matters,
not many people seem to give a damn ;
and since my 2 motorcycles are out of action, and I'm selling one of those ;
I think it's time to stick a little plug-and-play e-bike together ASAP.

................
Here are some of my thought-steps for what I want to stick together and make work.

Any thoughts / opinions / advice on any of the points below is appreciated.

I've been into motorcycles for a long time, fairly familiar with a lot of makes of MotoX ,
but I'm NOT very familiar with specific models or history of MTB.

FRAME :
1) . I would definitely prefer a STEEL frame dual suspension MTB , if anybody experienced can recommend various models for me to keep an eye out for ; both for structural strength and so I can easily make mods and additions to it .
[I am a decent welder and somewhat OK fabricator with some training behind me : Only average, not great : Don't have a lot of time for big jobs though at the moment].

I'm in the used-market [re. student budget]

Steel MTB frames seem to be difficult to find ! [Or maybe I just don't know what to look for ] .... understandably I suppose, since I guess most MTBs are produced for an end user in mind, and the end user wants light frames , and that means alum'n and carbon fibre, unfortunately for me.

However, some ideas I wanted to try in the future ; for eg.
- to weld cleats etc. so I can weld together a sturdy a cargo trailer out of cannibalized front ends from other bikes and other bits and pieces, as I have seen other users do here ; maybe put a tow-ball on there .
- Weld extensions for a cushier seat ; more like a moto dirt-bike .
- Various other extensions for loads and cargo.

These are NOT pressing ideas or needs ; but would be cool to do at some stage.

FRAME / PERSONAL MEASUREMENTS
I'm about 178 cm tall which is ~5'8" give or take a bit.

Standard 26" wheels will suit .

My current crap MTB has a measurement from centre of crank to top of seat post about 475 mm , which is actually a good size for me.
Top tube about 575 mm long [from centre of centre tube to centre of steering tube].


MOTOR :
2) I think I would like about a ~ 3 kW motor.
I tried a 2kW the other day [first time on ebike ; was a thrill ! ], and I reckon it was almost sufficient.
I just wanted a bit more pull.
I have had an MXUS hub motor recommended to me . A quick look around suggests these are good, and the specs I want.
Will do more research.

BUDGET :
3 ) Budget : I'm a bit of a broke ass student atm :
SO : [MINUS the frame] , for all the electric bits :
[hub motor , batteries and BMS, controller , throttle, anything else?]
I am HOPING to get out of it for under AU$1500 [which is about $1060 USD presently] ;
but I'm semi-realistic , and I know it might take AU$2000 out of me or a bit more ;
I'm just really hoping the $ won't run up that high.
The batteries themselves may suck up most of this cost entirely....
but IDEALLY I'm leaning toward the economical side at present.

ANTI THEFT Measure
4) I would love to be able to fairly easily remove the expensive electric bits from the frame [mainly hub and batteries] ; and carry [ie. lug them!] with me to classes [lock to my desk or something] ; as some measure against theft .
I don't know if the Quick Lok wheel removal system is suitable for hub motors, but that would be supercool, to save bringing spanner + ratchet with me, although that is doable.

I'm not splashing-out big cash on the frame , as it's altogether possible some --------- bastard will steal it ;
it's LESS likely if I spend a little on the low-end for the frame, even give it a crap paint-job, and lock it down with a few locks.

But basically , I'd prefer some reasonable steel dual susp. MTB frame on the cheaper-end of the market.

MY IMMEDIATE TRAVEL PURPOSES - NEEDS :
I plan to be using this to travel a distance of about 40 km [ ~25 miles ] each day ;
Between home work and study.
Basically fairly light commuting.

Here in Australia, the bullshit rip-off govt. revenue-raising petrol-business protection laws are bull-shit ;
Hub / electric motors are limited to about 350 W [though higher power motors are obtainable for "recreational use" , and police aren't walking around with meters.
ie : I'm NOT going to be attentive to the crooked-legalities in this regard ; and am going to buy a -------- decent motor that can deliver some actual power.

So the idea is for the bike not to draw too much visual attention ; and I'll be riding fairly sensibly [most of the time under 50 km / h , sometimes 60km / h max , and RARELY.

Anyway, that might be enough info and questions for now.
I wrote more, but it's possibly too much already.
............................

Thanks so much for any tidbits of advice or links to relevant threads which I've not searched !!!

If I don't get much of a chance to respond all week, until next weekend, it's because I'm in crazy work-study mode.
Just assume my upmost thanks appreciation in advance !!!

 

[USAEBIKECO]

When it comes to preventing thefts. The easiest thing to make your ebike inconspicuous, and design it so it blends in with other ebikes. Try and hide the wires. Make sure you can take your battery with you.

Get a Kryptonite U lock, or use even 2 of them.

I have been taking those precautions for years and never had my. bike stolen of even tampered with and I live in a big city.

 

[motomech]

However, some ideas I wanted to try in the future ; for eg.
- to weld cleats etc. so I can weld together a sturdy a cargo trailer out of cannibalized front ends from other bikes and other bits and pieces, as I have seen other users do here ; maybe put a tow-ball on there .
- Weld extensions for a cushier seat ; more like a moto dirt-bike .
- Various other extensions for loads and cargo.

What you are describing IS a cargo bike. Why not buy one of them and save yourself a lota work?

4) I would love to be able to fairly easily remove the expensive electric bits from the frame [mainly hub and batteries] ; and carry [ie. lug them!] with me to classes [lock to my desk or something] ; as some measure against theft .
I don't know if the Quick Lok wheel removal system is suitable for hub motors, but that would be supercool, to save bringing spanner + ratchet with me, although that is doable.

It doesn't work that way. Once the stuff is on there, it's on there. The connectors are stiff and don't wear well when constently dis-connected. Same with the wheel mount hardware, it's not the best quality and is best left alone. A lot of folks have come here with that idea, but I don't know of anyone who actually doing it.

So the idea is for the bike not to draw too much visual attention ; and I'll be riding fairly sensibly [most of the time under 50 km / h , sometimes 60km / h max , and RARELY.

Traveling at those speeds, you will draw plenty of attention. Not to mention the huge pack of batteries it will take to do 50 to 60 Kph for 15 to 25 miles.

With your wide range of goals and wants; Distance, speed, cargo carrying, trailer, comfort and low budget, I really don't see an intersection point. You might want to focus in on the type of Ebike you want to start with and build a second, different type later.

Please try and refrain from using profanity, no reason for it here.

 

[dogman dan]

Well, at least you don't want much for $1500 .

Steel FS frames I have seen. On bike shaped objects priced under $150. Real crap. But fortunately, you sound able to weld. Big power needs a pretty stiff frame, especially side to side. That hardly exists on cheap bikes.

If you could up your budget, I'd just suggest one of the ready made frames out there now, like from EM3ev. But then that looks like a 3000w bike.

So you have two choices in your budget the way I see it. Frankenbike, where you take a decent cromoly hard tail mtb frame and convert it to a full suspension. The other is at least for now, build a steel frame hardtail. This bike could be modified in all kinds of ways later, when you have more time.

Theft protection, you can't carry the wheel around, period. But you can remove the really expensive part, the battery. The bike itself can be made really unattractive. Hide the motor behind some bulky panniers helps some. In fact, if the bike is likely to vanish, you really need to lose this flyweight motorcycle idea completely. The best bet is your current crap bike frame, the cheapest possible 48v 1000w motor kit, and then you won't cry so much when it gets nicked. Lowering your power to 1000w ballpark does not mean that slow. still possible to go 45 kph. As a bonus, a 48v 20 ah battery will be easier to afford, and carry around.

Hey, I know you want an electric motorcycle, and some day you will. But for now, you just need basic cheap student transportation. For now, just throw a cheap kit on the bike you have. I know it's lame compared to a moto, but if you can't afford your motorcycles now, you need to drop down to "bike". 3000w muxus is not "bike". But a relatively weak 1000w bike can still tow a cheap trailer, so you can have the cargo hauling.

 

[SpasticOscillator]

Dudes ! Thanks !
I got a little bit of time this morning. I am surprised you all actually seemed to get through my over-caffeinated waffle !

A little update :
I was going through some ebay bike porn [which I have spent many hours doing over weeks trying to familiarize myself a bit with bikes, prices etc] ; And I purchased my first decent MTB : A used Proflex 857 in excellent condition ;
It is aluminium frame w/ carbon fibre swing arm , so definitely a far cry from steel ; But I love the geometry of it , and I love the mechanical front suspension .
It is my pet kangaroo. Gaboinga !
I reasoned that :
- I most likely WILL buy a little AC inverter welder sometime anyway [even though I don't love welding allie] ;
- I had some ideas about making some very simple non-welded clamp fixings that could be made with just a pipe bender [need to acquire], some flat bar and round bar, a big smashOmeter [hammer] ,
some rubber to protect the frame, nuts+bolts etc. ,
....which WON'T require welding to frame.
Kind of "Canti-levered welded-clamp extension thingies" <-- [Do you like my non-engineering terminology]
Just reeeeally easy smash-together into shape make-fit biz .

I could possibly replace the swing-arm with a steel fab-job , but I don't know... maybe I can work around it.

[I am even thinking of how I what I can do to this proflex frame for some light cargo :
I might be able to smash something together ].
It is obviously not ideal shape for cargo .....
but I have few ideas I might try out I reckon I can make work.

In any case : being that I love the frame , I could always use it to make a template / jig , for a steel jobbie later.

And importantly : this bike only cost me AU$300 ! So I just leapt on it.

I've been "just looking" at bikes for ages, and I need a decent pushie ANYWAY, so if that's all it becomes , so be it.
I probably would have spent that much just on parts to fix up my crap bike.

But I really like it, so I'll see if I can work with it.


Lester12483 : Re. Multiple locks : I had that same idea recommended to me the other day from a couple of the folks at Gloworm bikes in Marrickville, Sydney :
[they were really helpful and spent a lot of time with me ; Cheers Manny and Hugo ! Super nice guys] ...

and it's good to hear your security experiences in a big city.

[these guys told me a couple of scary stories about guys in trucks with oxy-rigs just hosing through bike locks and piling bikes into a van at the local city casino , with security around !]

I will buy 3 locks, maybe even 2 u-locks + 2 of the flexible types.

That said : I'm not riding it to any high theft zones [I don't think!] . Mostly to tech-school and back , and that is the only public place I would ever leave it at night while I am in classes. They have bike racks and a security office there, so it should be all good.
I might be over-reacting a little, but can't be too cautious !

Mr. Motomech :
Buying a cargo bike IS a considerable idea : Thanks !
I definitely don't need MORE work and tricky fabrication jobs at the moment.
My head will go "Pop".
I might keep my eye on the used market for a bit .

I do have a few specific ideas in that regard though, so some stuff might have to be stuck together.

Speeds : Yeah , I definitely wouldn't be riding 60 kph as a usual speed on a modded pushie lol !
I'm not out to die quickly.
Mostly probably between 30 and 40 kph :
Maybe less , depending on how safe it feels , and if I raise unwanted eyebrows.
.... but I would want to be able to give it some stick when I want ..

Maybe 2000 Watt IS enough just for commuting, which is the most needed thing .
I really enjoyed the one I tried.
I really don't want to draw too much attention.

But yeah, I think you might be right : Two bikes might indeed be the go, for the different purposes.... I'll give it a mulling over.

Sorry about the profanity ! I get a bit excited sometimes haha.
The forum seemed to auto-change it anyway.

Sir Dogman Dan !
Eheh ! Yes , I live in fantasy land, I know....
Like everybody else , I want everything done for me , done yesterday, for half the cost it takes or free !

I might stretch it up to $2k for components....
But for bits that sound relatively easy to pinch... I'm just being tentative .
..................
Do you mean this frame ? [EEB Full suspension ebike frame]

http://em3ev.com/store/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=209

Far-out ! they are only asking $500 for that thing !!!
But I've just acquired something to play with for a little while, above-mentioned.
............

Batteries :
I would possibly err toward the 52 V based on the bits I've read....
depends on the weight differences I suppose ;
And the power losses as the V < .
....but maybe 48V 20 Ah will suffice me for my daily distances [and cheap-skatery ! ] as you say.

Probably better to put a bit extra $ in for overall, as perhaps you also imply,
so I will try to future-proof the thing.

Mmmmm..... I was thinking 3kW , but you say 1kW will probably satisfy my most immediate needs ;
ie. just hauling my buns across the suburbs into town and back ,
and being able to go at a safe pace on sidewalks to get out of the damn traffic ;
and I DID enjoy the 2kW I tried the other day ;
and it was not a hefty unit ;
Maybe I should just go with something in-between the voice of experience [you] and myself [Dr. KnowLittle] and go with 2kW.
It was perfectly good, really.

I THINK the thing I tried was a Magic Pie. I didn't ask what brand ; but looking around, it looked like pictures of a Magic Pie [although I have read this is perhaps not one of the more quality motors? ]
Whatever it was, I liked it.
.........................
Ugly bulky saddle-bags are a good idea.
They are the kind I use anyway

With my above-mentioned bike acquisition, I am also quite happy to destroy it's nice paint and give it crap paint-job to further deter theft.
.....................

I will try and read through previous threads for component recommendations.
If there is any threads or particular components ;
Say , hopefully under AU $2000 .
- Motor at 2 kW
- Battery
- Controller
- ummm.... BMS ? Anything else ?
etc.

Gotta run !
Thank you everyone so much for your time,
and for helping me consider what is essential VS. Silly !

 

[nutnspecial]

Hey welcome! It sounds like you're getting along pretty good. As you research various builds likely in the hub section or in ebike pictures/video, you'll find some similar powered builds to what you're thinking of. There will be alot of great details like hardware choices that will help the process, including terminology like 'torque arms' - to which I'm thinking you've referred to above for beefing up the frame.

I don't have much direct experience with hubs or lithium packs (or builds really, with just one), so I can't offer too much else that specifically helpful. Theres plenty of setup choices capable of 2kw plus. I'd focus on those two forum sections for peoples builds, or maybe start in the before/after ebike thread to scan for builds to focus on. https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=235&hilit=before+your+after&start=1450
Have fun, be safe!
Jay

 

[dogman dan]

Hoo boy, in my opinion, you just bought the worst possible bike to put a rear motor on, unless you do make it a steel swing arm.

I could be wrong, I haven't seen the bike. But now for sure you better tone down the wattage, or that motor is gong to rip itself right out of the frame.

But you could be ok if the bike actually has a metal dropout plate, bolted to a carbon swing arm. Even if it has that, I'd keep it below 1000w. It has to do with the way carbon fails, and then the way you will be using it was never intended to be done by the designer. There is a possibility of the frame snapping on you at 30 mph.

Good excuse to get that EM3ev frame sooner, move all the nice components on your new bike to that frame.

 

[dogman dan]

Just looked at some shitty images of your bike. I can see why you bought it. Nice frame triangle to carry a battery.

The pictures I found are crap, I can't see anything about how the swing arm really is. Looks like I see some metal there, but I still say at most put a 48v 1000w kit on that thing.

 

[SlowCo]

You mention you've ridden a 2kW bike. Was that a 2kW peak output? Because that is what a 1000W hubmotor is also capable of delivering. What motor/controller was that in terms of voltage/amps?

With the carbon swingarm of your newly bought bike you might be better of using a Bafang BBSHD mid drive adjusted to 30A. That way there is no heavy hub motor trying to kill your swingarm and you still have >1500W peak power that you can use through the gears. And that set up can be used more easily for hauling a cargo trailer because you can gear down.

 

[Drunkskunk]

That Proflex frame should make for an interesting build, especially with the Girvin fork. trash the elastomer dampener and get a real shock for it from Risse Racing. http://www.risseracing.com/girvin.shtml They also make a rear shock. http://www.risseracing.com/proflex.shtml
getting rid of the elastomer springs will make the bike perform like... Well, lets face it.. People don't ride ProFlex for performance, they ride it for nostalgia. They are awesome looking bikes, but there are good reasons that design didn't last.


You should consider ditching the hub motor and going with a BBS02 or BBSHD mid drive for this frame. The Proflex frames are known for stress cracking at the pivot point. Adding 12-20kg of unsprung weight to the end of the swingarm can only make that problem much worse. in addition, I wouldn't trust a 20 year old carbon swing arm for a ride further than around the block under power. You'll need to make a steel swing arm if you ever plan to push 3000w through this bike with a hub motor. Even with a 1000w hub motor, It won't be a question of if the swingarm breaks, but how long will it take. The rear elastomer spring isn't going to do well trying to dampen the high unsprung weight of a hub motor. With a mid drive, you take the weight and stress off the swingarm.

 

[macribs]

Probably not what you wanted to hear, but maybe you should try to sell off the newly bought bike? Sell it and get yourself the EEB frame for 500. Put in a 300 $ motor and go bargin hunting for shocks and forks and whatever else you need to complete the build. Depending on shipping for frame you should have money left to complete bike within budget if you look for second hand parts for everything but batteries. There are used items for sale section here on the forum, and you guys have gumtree or whatever. Or if you are lucky you can find a decent donor bike to chop parts off, then sell the frame&swing arm to get some cash back.

Seems you are hooked on power, admit to be bitten by the speed devil and build it like you want it from the get go. Sure it might not be done on time, or budget might crack a little but there are good deals to be had for second hand parts. I myself was lucky and got fox 40 and manitou rear shock for around 600$ straight from service. Not brand spanking new but in great working condition.

Then there is China, you can get a lot of stuff cheapo from China if you can't find second hand.

 

[dogman dan]

Definitely a good bike to put the bafang mid drive on. Seriously, I think you did right grabbing that thing, but just not right for a big powerful hubmotor.

But show us a close up picture of the rear axle area. It might still be ok to put less powerful motor on it. Just depends on how the dropouts are made.

 

[SpasticOscillator]

...............
nutspecial :
Thanks v. much for the welcome nutspecial !
That was an excellent thread you linked me to .
I spent a good hour just ogling goodies on it the other day.

I'm getting more compelled to spend some time looking more deeply into threads where my questions are already answered, rather than bother people with questions they've likely kindly answered many times before

I've realized I've been a bit superficial with how I've been researching up to late, but the necessity to button something up fairly swiftly pushing me on.

PS. your sig. is one of my fave quotes !
I also love the Shakespeare version of the same sentiment, too, re. "wise men and fools"

..................

Sir Dogman , sir !

Lol, I appreciate the honest opinion

I had a few reasons to take a [possibly bad ] gamble on this bike :
- it's possible to obtain an entire replacement swingarm for this model in aluminium instead .
I could fab up a steel replacement , but it would be [MORE than] a pain in the bum to me right now : It really might not be necessary.
And it would definitely be tricky.
- It is seems pretty well sprung in the rear [ and front ; not sure where I will mount hubmotor] that the stresses should be minimal : and I am not intending to thrash the thing . Just light commuting.

- The rear dropout is not carbon fibre ; it is an allie fixture screwed into the C.fibre.
As I say, it is pretty well sprung, and I am not going to be riding it like a wild-man. 30 - 35 kph will probably be the usual average speed !!

- I know very little about carbon fibre, apart from something I heard from an old employer which was something like : you could bolt one end of a carbon fibre plank to the end of a pool , and walk ten metres to the end of the plank , and jump on it, and it won't snap [ but if you drop the plank on end it will shatter ] . <-- BS??

So it has [should] very high tensile strength.
I'm not too sure how the tensile strength and impact properties go together here, but the suspension feels nice, and I figured I'd risk it.
Maybe unwisely .

If you can link me to something about the way carbon fibre fails in the way you mentioned , that would be super-cool .
Otherwise , I will probably just google it.
I have fingers and a computer This is doable !

Bolting steel drop-outs to it is possibly not a bad idea !

Your second post nailed another reason why I bought the bike :
The wide open space in the middle of the frame, to load batteries !

Speaking of batteries :
I have an old employer at a motorcycle workshop I worked in as general dogsbody [I'm not a mechanic by any stretch] who might be able to get me some quality lithiums for cost price !!
[ lithium batts are more prevalent in motorcycles these days].

I'll see how this pans out for me in the next couple of weeks.
I don't know what connections this person has to get the suitable gear.

I want to stick it together a bit ASAP-PY, so if this person doesn't come through for me , I'm still checking out what is best on offer for ebikes.
..............................

Dear SlowCo :
Those are great questions I don't know how to answer and must look into .
Though I won't be riding the thing at it's peak output. It's not a racey bike .

I was leaning more towards hubs .
I really am going for a bit more plug-and-play at the moment for practicality.
I'm a little bit mechanically retarded ; although mid drives are interesting to me, and I have read about the various advantages.
If I was more mech. saavy , I would use definitely use them .

Your other points have definitely given me some things to consider ... MMmmmmMMmmmm
..............................

Hey Master DrunkSkunk !
Your Red Rock-Hopper is a goddamn modern masterpiece !

Some people may ride proflex for the nostalgia :
I grabbed it because of student-budget and plain thick ignorance !

[It was only $300 ]

You said there are good reasons the design didn't last :
I'm interested if you could list a few of the reasons , just as points?
That might serve doubly as a list of points of things I SHOULD be going for .

[Obviously the thing is almost 20 years old , and many improvements could be expected].
I can see that it wouldn't hack the same treatment as more modern frames.

I've read about people who've given these bikes a pretty hard time for a lot of years, so it sounded like they take some amount of smashing.

Yes , I liked the look too, and I'm a sucker for the superficial until I know better...
and I don't know better at the moment.
It just seemed pretty good to me ; a practical overall shape .

I ran across that risseracing shop you linked to a few days ago actually.
Their gear is certainly not inconsiderable in $ , and if I choose to do more with this frame , I might grab some of it.

But just this second.... student budget constraints ;
A rear shock with postage is about as much as I paid for the entire setup.

... still , I might go for it at some point.
............................
Hi Nelson37 :
Darn !
That's a minor bummer for me !
It's alright . These things happen.
It was a rash decision .
Even if it just turns out to be a good pushbike for me , I'll live with that.

I will have to look further into the types of posts you mention re. carbon fibre swingarms , etc.

If you can link me something as to why you think mid-drives are unsuitable , I'm curious. [will have a look around too].
I've read that when they stuff up , they stuff up in a big way , and are a trickier fix.

Your budget and miles done are interesting !
I'll have to check your posts.
............................
Hey macribs :
Your advice is certainly NOT "not what I want to hear" :
All advice and diff. points of view appreciated !
Thanks for the input.

Your idea is definitely worth thinking about.
I will look into where I can acquire an EEB frame in Sydney , NSW then.

It's a good idea , and might sort out a lot of problems.

I do prefer NOT to buy Chinese bits where possible.
I would happily save my pennies for a motor made somewhere else,
as long as it is not outrageously priced : But even at twice the price , if it is quality, that's fine.
I don't like putting money into the Chinese political / industrial machine.
It seems like ALL the hub motors are made there, though , so I might just have to go with that.
And I support the idea bicycle hub motors of good quality no matter where they are made :
Maybe it will inspire competition in the US or elsewhere, over time .
People don't want to pay through the gills for filthy petrol .
It doesn't matter who offers the alternative ; but when there is one , the money will go right out of the petrol industry, and if it takes Chinese industrial innovation [or plagiarism lol] to do it , I applaud them all the way..

Yeah, I'm bitten by the speed bug :
But actually I'm willing to compromise a lot on my ideal for RIGHT NOW at the moment for the sake of getting moving quickly ,
for transport to tech school .

The traffic is so shockingly bad here in Sydney , that even an underpowered bike that I can ride carefully on sidewalks at a doddle-pace is WAY better than nothing [or taking a longer time to assemble an ideal ].

ie. I can have two bikes.
I'm happy to turn over ideas and make mistakes along the way.

............................
Hey again Dogman !

Yeah , it will be great even just as a pushbike , so I'm not shedding tears over a slight superfluous purchase.
For $300 , it really has not broken the bank at all , and I like it .

It may also serve as a template for jig to build another frame later on ,
as I do like the general shape of it.

I'll attach some pics of the thing.

Okay , it seems like the general resounding consensus is that I should go with a 1kW motor [1500W not acceptable? ] , at least for this frame.
if I choose to use this frame , for safety reasons unless I biff the swing arm,
or get a mid-drive... [though mid drive might be tricky ? ]

.... or simply get another bike.
And people seem to favourably rate that EEB frame , so I might see where I can get one here in Sydney , Aus.

I could put a 1kW hub motor in the Proflex bike for the moment,
and just buy another motor later .

I can certainly have 2 bikes and 2 motors.
I don't mind copping odd losses over time , on the road to assembling the right thing. Those are just the breaks sometimes.

Even if something is underpowered for my jolly-factor, as long as it gets me moving, is really the main thing at the moment :

I can work on my "dream e-bike" later as I go, as suggested.
Not everything has to be perfect first time around.

Plus I am selling 1 of my 2 motorcycles , so that will bring cash and space in.

 

[SpasticOscillator]

Here is a link to some images of the bike I just tried U/Ling to imgur .
Hopefully they should display okay .

http://imgur.com/a/hoyqD

 

[nutnspecial]

Wow, people rarely put much effort into positivity and conversation here. Kudo's!

My further 2c. The bike reminds me of my build choice- a unique and well performing xc bike coming up on 'classic' status. Judging from the pictures and description, it looks like quite a nice ride, and a great deal. I wouldn't be overly worried with frame failure @ reasonable power, but do you're homework to determine frame type common issues so you know what to design around/ watch for. Personally a 20lb hub wouldn't be a good choice imo- too much cost on a budget, weight in the wrong place, and possibly too much power to easily handle in those dropouts/swingarm.

As far as build direction, even though my klein was 'USA', and common understanding here has been the east 'taking our jobs', I personally don't shy away from products manufactured in the east. To me the vietnamese, japanese, korean, and finally chinese world manufacturing gravitation are simply indicators they've fallen inline with western worldwide ideals and 'control', mostly soon after they were the focus of direct military conflict (such as the first 3 or 4). It's all just evidence of 'one world' direction. We have military, religious, scientific, economic, manufacturing, etc, divisions of 'expertise' in the world. Reminds me of the book 'empyrion'.

Anyway, not a big deal to buy eastern imo (most comes from there anyway), and because of budget, experience level, and combo of bike type and extended potential goals of highpower, I'll personally recommend a cheap ebay/amazon 48v hub kit. Around here they are around 200$ shipped, and they don't seem to be lacking in quality. They remain reliable even at upped amps and volts (2kw). On the otherhand, it is generally recommended to find reliable sellers for batteries, (which also tend to come from east).

As far as carbon fiber, it is known to be far superior in weight/strength ratio within it's structural design with utilization of it's pro's, which is very similar to aluminum vs steel- along with it's tradeoffs or con's. Generally in bikes it is great, but loses it's structural integrity much faster than metal after abuse such as a hammer hit- I guess it could be considered less 'durable' overall. The higher power the ebike, our crowd favorite begins to revert towards simpler and more reliable steel even over aluminum. But carbon fiber isn't a 'game over' by any means, in fact there's the NYX canadian custom carbon fiber frames.

These were two of my fav 'go-to' learning basics of CF
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hjErH4_1fks
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nvk63bmVpck <--like this guy's 'science'
But there's obviously alot more
https://www.google.com/#q=carbon+fiber+frame+vs+
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=carbon+fiber+bike+frame+vs

So, even though I was told the same thing with my build (go light or use another bike), but chose to go high power, I wouldn't recommend that for a really big hub on a light bike, or overly custom drives such as mine right off the bat in this case. The chance of failure, or amount of time, effort, and money don't seem to make those avenues recommendable for your criteria so far.

I'd recommend a lighter mac geared hub to retain more bike-like weight and limited cogging, but @ maybe double the price (new) that's a hard call on a budget. Likely a generic 10lb 1kw hub, possibly juiced to 2kw will be the 'best' choice for that bike, in your case, for starters.



edit/// upon further examination, I'm hearing proflex fs can be as little as 20lbs, and also can have steel swingarms- it really seems like a great bike. There's several hits on ES of E builds to root out, and goog of the bike is quite impressive when considering content and comments. Seems pretty dam cool xc.
https://www.google.com/search?sitesearch=endless-sphere.com&q=proflex&gws_rd=ssl#q=proflex+site:endless-sphere.com&start=10
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TRa6rXuif4I
https://www.flickr.com/photos/thornton_family/2721791811

 

[SpasticOscillator]

Hey nutspecial !
We'll see how I go with conversation .
My study commitments are a bit busy :
- Trying to wrap up my welding course 2 nights,
- Started a 2-3 day p/wk electronics course 7 months ago
[still at a VERY basic level],
...which I have tests for this week [micros],
and am definitely very behind in one subject [amps configs] :
- I've got another night class too on a different subject,
- and I'm labouring 2 or 3 days a week.
[trying to pack as much study in before our stupid govt. destroys our public tertiary education system, which is happening : Going the way of the US : Privatize everything, make tech and trades education difficult / impossible for any average person to afford without going into debt-servitude for a long term , and my opinion is "F-THAT !" better try get stuff done now].
So I occasionally must get lazy with conversation at times haha

Thanks heaps for all your spec recommendations and other advice !
[and that Empyrion book series sounds interesting - it goes on the long "to read" list haha] ;
and for the Proflex links !
I saw one of those youtubies ; and that was one of many favourable reviews.
...but you turned up some other useful resources I hadn't seen . CHEERS!

Okay , I'm getting swayed to a 1kW for this bike ,
for the sake of a more immediate , appropriate , bun-hauling contraption.
....And I'll buy a bigger motor later

It would also be nice to have the option of just a really light motor at any point.
...it seems like everybody's agreeing on that]

It would be fun to experience and play with the different performance-characteristics between a larger and smaller motor,
so maybe I'll just try a few over time.

I somewhat understand what people seem to be saying ;
in that the spec kW output is "just a number" in some ways.

There is a lot to be said for weight differences and handling characteristics .
Yes , I like speed , but : Speed VS handling is also very important,
and I guess there is are trade-offs when it comes to messing with push-bikes.

There would be no point in attaching a great motor on some contraption if it's just going to cause the machine to handle like a big bucket of bolts in a mining cart.
....or worst case , snap the contraption while operating it !
....Not ending up in a crumpled heap is always preferable.

[although the 2kW motor I tried handled nicely , and was certainly not chunky ]...
But maybe waiting until I can fab a replacement swingarm [or buy one] for this bike, or getting an entirely different bike altogether, would be more confidence-inspiring in handling of the bike and safety wise ;
So I appreciate everyone's input.

I should have specified ; I have nothing against having more than 1 bike,
or paying for different bits over time . So I reckon I will keep this one, and get another at some point.

I reckon I'll get that EEB frame too. If it comes under $600 within Australia, that can't be beat.
Though that site said $500 USD , so I expect I'd be looking at a fair bit more $ actually.

But yeah, would be sad to put a stack of cash in just 1 thing that is easy enough for somebody to knock off if they really want it...

I will definitely keep my eye out for replacement aluminium and steel swingarms for my proflex ASAP.
I may end up making something, but would prefer not to have to bother with life the way it is atm.

I took the proflex out for a good LONG ride last week , and I found it an absolute pleasure.... that said , I am no connoisseur by any stretch.
But I love it , and I would like to try motorizing it , even with a little thing.
It's a nice little whippet.

... and it has some steel spring shock in the rear, not the elastomer shock , which someone kindly replaced.

But I reckon I'll start looking out for pit-bike parts too, since I've noticed they go cheap, for other late builds, and more used bits :

.............
The China economic / political thing :
I guess it's one of those "discussions" which belongs in the giant pile of extremely complicated topics which can't be reduced to a couple of paragraphs for an easy understanding.
It probably can't even be reduced to a lot of paragraphs for a complicated understanding....

Tho....
I'm also definitely not against "buying from the "east" "
[ is there even really such a thing as east and west??? We're on a spinning sphere . Where does "east" begin and "west" end? East and West are more like directions rather than locations ] , and I don't think "they're taking our jobs" [perhaps so much as simply receiving jobs handed to them from their dictatorship and people who don't care about their immediate surroundings or global interactions] .

Do you really think China is "falling in line" with a global / one-world direction, or certain Western Ideals ?
China has had a horrible time historically from the West : England, France, US, etc. have all given them hell ; and China as a nation themselves also does not seem afraid to stomp on smaller or less powerful / powerless people [Tibet].
...But I that's probably more an obvious observation about large groups of people and human nature in general.
.... However, it's still more or less a dictatorship.

Anyway... I AM against buying extreme poor quality, and supporting what is essentially slave labour conditions, if I can help it.
[although I hear these hub motors are very good quality].

.....but I'm also against the fossil-fuel industry , and am very in favour of pushing to reduce greenhouse gas emissions / global-warming :
So it's conflicting, but I think any movement away from fossil-fuels is possibly much more important than any other issue :
So I don't really care who or what nation is offering and expanding solutions.
Working towards smashing out fuel/gas/oil consumption is "Priority-One."

I also certainly DON'T think "they're taking our jobs !"
I think more in terms of people being stupid enough to give certain [sometimes important] jobs in their country away ! Because they'd rather buy cheap crap in general and have it now-now-now, than pay somebody in their own country to make it : Thus sometimes sacrificing local control .

In Australia , people used to make all kinds of things. These days, the bulk of the economy here is literally based on digging up mineral resources from WA mostly, selling that to China - China uses a portion of that to fashion into some consumer junk, which they ship back and sell to us, and everybody says "Yay" and thinks the situation will last forever.
And when the resources here dry up, there won't be anything left to trade with, and China [or anybody] can pretty much wipe their bum with us, and I won't really blame them a bit !

To compare to other eastern nations :
Japan has extremely high-quality workmanship in general, and decent wage conditions for their people , as far as I know.
Vietnam can also be very good. Taiwan also.
Motorcycling history would obviously be very different without Japan.
The history of audio-tech would be another story too.
I own a few Vietnamese-made tools which are of good quality.

However, Chinese tools, and audio gear, and vehicles, in my experience are pretty much always complete crap.
Often worse than complete crap ; poorly constructed made-to-fail completely unsafe life-endangering crap in the case of a lot of their vehicles [think pot-steel frames for scooters that SNAP over speed bumps ! ]
which I have no idea how they meet import approval from many nations.

Those sorts of experiences always confirm "why not just pay 2 or 3 or 4 times the price in the first place, and have something that lasts" ?
For MOST types of products.
It's definitely false economy to buy their tools [esp. hand tools], when they all just snap and break : One can easily break 50 of their crap drill bits before you even need to sharpen a decent bit from a respectable maker from "country x".
So where is the economy in needing to buy something again and again?

Not that I don't think they can't make good tools ; I'm pretty sure their horrible government would have a say in what goes overseas and what doesn't , and what they should be flooding other markets with :
And the dross crap goes overseas, while decent tools are kept for their own industry . <-- I can't support that with evidence. Just unfounded paranoid suspicion of Industrial Espionage Lite.

Anyway.... a lot of Chinese don't choose to work in horrible factories for almost no-money : Government-industry just stomps in and literally bulldozes their farm-land and TELLS them they are now working in a factory.
It's a dictatorship. So that's the main difference between that and most other "eastern" nations that might be traded with.

Anyway, this is becoming an opinion-piece about politics and trade now , which wasn't really the point LOL, and it's entirely possible my opinions are stupid and uninformed.

I THINK I'm all out of opinions which are not to do with ebike construction now !
[but happy to hear any additions you might have ]
.............

Hey Nelson37 !!

Thanks heaps for your concise wrap-up of pros and cons between BB and hub motors.
I'd been reading various articles and bits-and-pieces like that, but your comment really nailed some things, and I appreciate that.

At the moment : SIMPLE is definitely best !
Reliability and running more clock-like is becoming pretty darn essential !
And I'm definitely not in the mood for busted-bits, and replacing gear more often, and basically, issues, and more tricky projects and things, for at least the next year. Putting together kits is probably almost a the limit of my patience/sanity ATM.

I mentioned some of my study commitments way up above :
That's where I need to put my time ; Not messing with finnicky mechanical gizmos [so maybe one day I can contribute something more useful ; rather than just asking a bunch of questions !] .

I also certainly am not a fan of the possibility of rendering a loved-bike totally unusable [without a fair-big job to fix].

The mid-drives have been suggested to me a few times now, and I'm sure they'll come along, but I do think I will give them a dodge for now , and go with hubs definitely : Cheers for the solid !

Also ; I'd better keep an eye out for some kind of replacement swingarm pretty quick smart. I don't really don't like the sounds of "snaps suddenly and with no warning", since that's probably what that event would do to my bod !

Cheers for helping me avoid peril and doom !

 

[dogman dan]

Looking at the excellent pictures, I now see no reason you could not put a 1000w rear hub motor on that bike. It looks like too hard to do to replace just the metal dropout though. Big difference between big beefy carbon stays and lacy spiderweb thin stuff. Looks fine to me now that I see it, and the dropouts are metal.

But I still think a bafang mid drive on that bike would really rock, along with a really good modern fork. That would get you a damn fine off road bike. For street, you could get by with the weird old fork.

Again, If I saw that bike for sale cheap, I'd have bought it!

 

[nutnspecial]

Wowo! I pretty much fully agree with all your well stated thoughts on non-bike topics, which might be considered uncustomary for me lol. Certainly valid points all the way around and I might only add comment to clarify my idea on China and also govment types as I feel they relate/differ, but that's not even in direct disagreement or really needed right now.

Agree with you and Dan on the bike also. I'll go back and reread any critera/desires you listed that might allow my offer any more opinion on drive type.