New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

[bikesnobyyc]

I updated the wiki on how to install TSDZ2 on cargo bike -- now I am looking for notes and pictures of installation on a fat bike, I think this is the last category left - anyone available to share his own notes and pictures?

I've done a very detailed fat bike build this year and it turned out great. Here are a couple of pictures. I'll send you several detailed pictures and notes on the build by email for your Wiki.

 

[casainho]

I updated the wiki on how to install TSDZ2 on cargo bike -- now I am looking for notes and pictures of installation on a fat bike, I think this is the last category left - anyone available to share his own notes and pictures?

I've done a very detailed fat bike build this year and it turned out great. Here are a couple of pictures. I'll send you several detailed pictures and notes on the build by email for your Wiki.907 Fat Bike (2020) 1b.jpg907 Fat Bike (2020) 2b.jpg

Really beautiful bike and also pictures on that background and colors!!
Please send and I will put on the wiki.

 

[Big_Daddy]

I'm a relative newbie to the TSDZ2 OSF platform. I have used a stock 36V TSDZ2 for about a year and added the new one with 48V OSF to a similar bike recently. The OSF is certainly feature rich and very smooth, a refined smooth! However, one question lingers in that my unit has a hesitation of about 10-12 pedal turns and then the assist kicks in and has normal smooth and powerful delivery for as long as I pedal. If pedaling is paused for a coasting period, the hesitation is there again for a few turns and then back to normal assist. This is a different experience from the stock unit which delivers a more immediate and consistent burst of power on demand, although not nearly as smooth as the OSF version. Asking anyone having experienced both units, is this normal? Or are there settings to tweak front end power more similar to like the stock unit? Coincidentally, even from a standstill with "startup boost" activated, there is still a hesitation for a few turns then boost kicks in. I experienced something a little similar once with the stock unit when the speed sensor magnet was accidentally turned side ways. any thoughts or suggestions appreciated.

 

[James Broadhurst]

However, one question lingers in that my unit has a hesitation of about 10-12 pedal turns and then the assist kicks in and has normal smooth and powerful delivery for as long as I pedal. If pedaling is paused for a coasting period, the hesitation is there again for a few turns and then back to normal assist. This is a different experience from the stock unit which delivers a more immediate .. power

The difference between the two might be a reason why the blue gear gets trashed in the stock unit. If I start off in too high a gear the new firmware does what you describe (although for nothing like 12 turns) which I’ve assumed is to protect the blue gear. Boost ought to have ripped the blue gear apart but hasn’t. A lower gear works for me.

 

[Big_Daddy]

James thanks for your thoughts. I am a fairly regimented downshifter and always gear down when coming to stops or slowing to a low speed, what I am describing occurs not only at low speeds but any higher speed when coasting for several seconds then reinitiating pedal action. I am wary of blue gear wear and have 1600 miles on my stock unit with no sign of any wear or strain. It’s not a showstopper for me but just feels different like when I’m trying to get down on it to get away from the neighborhood dog chasing me. Perhaps What I probably need to do is setting the display where I can see the human power and motor power values simultaneously and observe in variations that stand out. Right now I’m seeing this as more of a tweak than a fix! Thanks again for your comments.

 

[Big_Daddy]

James thanks for your thoughts. I am a fairly regimented downshifter and always gear down when coming to stops or slowing to a low speed, what I am describing occurs not only at low speeds but any higher speed when coasting for several seconds then reinitiating pedal action. I am wary of blue gear wear and have 1600 miles on my stock unit with no sign of any wear or strain. It’s not a showstopper for me but just feels different like when I’m trying to get down on it to get away from the neighborhood dog chasing me. Perhaps What I probably need to do is setting the display where I can see the human power and motor power values simultaneously and observe in variations that stand out. Right now I’m seeing this as more of a tweak than a fix! Thanks again for your comments.

 

[casainho]

James thanks for your thoughts. I am a fairly regimented downshifter and always gear down when coming to stops or slowing to a low speed, what I am describing occurs not only at low speeds but any higher speed when coasting for several seconds then reinitiating pedal action. I am wary of blue gear wear and have 1600 miles on my stock unit with no sign of any wear or strain. It’s not a showstopper for me but just feels different like when I’m trying to get down on it to get away from the neighborhood dog chasing me. Perhaps What I probably need to do is setting the display where I can see the human power and motor power values simultaneously and observe in variations that stand out. Right now I’m seeing this as more of a tweak than a fix! Thanks again for your comments.

What configurations did you changed to try improve this?

 

[RicMcK]

Does anyone have any suggestions for this issue?

So, your torque sensor is not working. I would start to see if the connector inside the TSDZ2 is ok... You can try see if the values are different with the connector on place and unconnected.

Casainho. Thanks for the suggestion. I tested the torque sensor (in question) on my other motor and it works fine. I also tested both torque sensors on the new system and neither register variable ACD values.

From these tests my guess is that the controller is defective, or there is a software bug. Proir to the sensor swap I re-flashed both the motor and P860C display, this did not "fix, or change" the no ACD variable issue.

My next test will be to try the LCD3 display with the 2.0 FW.

I currently do not have a functional bootloader box (parts on order from AliExpress), so I can't flash the P850C.

Any new suggestions?

Thanks for your help.

 

[Big_Daddy]

James thanks for your thoughts. I am a fairly regimented downshifter and always gear down when coming to stops or slowing to a low speed, what I am describing occurs not only at low speeds but any higher speed when coasting for several seconds then reinitiating pedal action. I am wary of blue gear wear and have 1600 miles on my stock unit with no sign of any wear or strain. It’s not a showstopper for me but just feels different like when I’m trying to get down on it to get away from the neighborhood dog chasing me. Perhaps What I probably need to do is setting the display where I can see the human power and motor power values simultaneously and observe in variations that stand out. Right now I’m seeing this as more of a tweak than a fix! Thanks again for your comments.

What configurations did you changed to try improve this?

casainho, I actually have not changed any of the configurations that my vendor set up with TSDZ2/OSF except for activating the startup boost mode. Everything else is as he configured. I went for a test ride this morning and noted with consistency that I was wrong about the number of pedal turns, it was actually around six/seven and that the assist consistently kicks in at 210 W human power reading fairly consistently (max current is set at 12). Motor power reading varies depending on speed I am trying to maintain or level of incline.I try to gear as if there was no motor installed with the intent of keeping wear on the blue gear minimized. I have not tinkered with settings because other than this one item, it is a very nice, smooth, powerful ride. I ride my local paved trail exclusively and it has quite a few stops/road crossings and pedestrian traffic that I have to slow down which is why this is apparent. You do great work man and thanks for all the help you give with this!

 

[casainho]

James thanks for your thoughts. I am a fairly regimented downshifter and always gear down when coming to stops or slowing to a low speed, what I am describing occurs not only at low speeds but any higher speed when coasting for several seconds then reinitiating pedal action. I am wary of blue gear wear and have 1600 miles on my stock unit with no sign of any wear or strain. It’s not a showstopper for me but just feels different like when I’m trying to get down on it to get away from the neighborhood dog chasing me. Perhaps What I probably need to do is setting the display where I can see the human power and motor power values simultaneously and observe in variations that stand out. Right now I’m seeing this as more of a tweak than a fix! Thanks again for your comments.

What configurations did you changed to try improve this?

casainho, I actually have not changed any of the configurations that my vendor set up with TSDZ2/OSF except for activating the startup boost mode. Everything else is as he configured. I went for a test ride this morning and noted with consistency that I was wrong about the number of pedal turns, it was actually around six/seven and that the assist consistently kicks in at 210 W human power reading fairly consistently (max current is set at 12). Motor power reading varies depending on speed I am trying to maintain or level of incline.I try to gear as if there was no motor installed with the intent of keeping wear on the blue gear minimized. I have not tinkered with settings because other than this one item, it is a very nice, smooth, powerful ride. I ride my local paved trail exclusively and it has quite a few stops/road crossings and pedestrian traffic that I have to slow down which is why this is apparent. You do great work man and thanks for all the help you give with this!

First you need to see if you have the latest firmware version and then look at the configurations wiki page, you will find there a configuration that my help to reduce that time but it is up to you to read and understand, to see what makes sense for you.

 

[casainho]

I just updated the wiki with the new category Fat bike, thanks to bikesnobyyc from Canada.

Does anyone have pictures and notes for a road bike build??

 

[hetm4n]

casainho

this version 0.9.0 sw102 and 0.58.0 tsdz2 have an extended stopping time after stopping pedaling or can it be set? (just like you did in 0.57.3).

 

[casainho]

casainho

this version 0.9.0 sw102 and 0.58.0 tsdz2 have an extended stopping time after stopping pedaling or can it be set? (just like you did in 0.57.3).

That version is a beta version, soon I will make another version with 2 options: fast stoping for regular bikes and slow stopping for some full suspension bikes.

 

[fireflyer451]

Big_Daddy,

Take a look at the configuration - Various / Assist w/o pedal rot . And set it to 'enabled' if you have Ebrakes installed.

My system was slow to engage the assist when I started pedaling too. Not 6 or 7 rotations, much less. About 1/2 of a full pedal rotation. But it was annoying. THis setting changed that. But having the ebrakes is important to keep the bike from 'running away'.

 

[Big_Daddy]

Big_Daddy,

Take a look at the configuration - Various / Assist w/o pedal rot . And set it to 'enabled' if you have Ebrakes installed.

My system was slow to engage the assist when I started pedaling too. Not 6 or 7 rotations, much less. About 1/2 of a full pedal rotation. But it was annoying. THis setting changed that. But having the ebrakes is important to keep the bike from 'running away'.

Hey thanks for the info! I will install the e-brakes tomorrow and give your suggestion a try. :thumb:

 

[NexusG]

Hi everyone,

Does everyone know the maximum operating temperature of the TSDZ2 neodymium magnets ? I'm doing some tests involving oil cooling but I don't know how hot can I go without damaging the magnets

80°C seems to be the limit for standard magnets but AH magnets can operate in temperatures up to 230°C

 

[RicMcK]

Does anyone have any suggestions for this issue?

So, your torque sensor is not working. I would start to see if the connector inside the TSDZ2 is ok... You can try see if the values are different with the connector on place and unconnected.

Casainho. Thanks for the suggestion. I tested the torque sensor (in question) on my other motor and it works fine. I also tested both torque sensors on the new system and neither register variable ACD values.

From these tests my guess is that the controller is defective, or there is a software bug. Proir to the sensor swap I re-flashed both the motor and P860C display, this did not "fix, or change" the no ACD variable issue.

My next test will be to try the LCD3 display with the 2.0 FW.

I currently do not have a functional bootloader box (parts on order from AliExpress), so I can't flash the P850C.

Any new suggestions?

Thanks for your help.

Torque sensor update.
I got everything reinstalled. Putting grease on the little springs helps hold them in place.

I wired up my LCD3 and it registered variable ACD values. Thus, the torque sensor and motor controller are OK. I reflashed the motor with FW# 0.57, and #0. 57.2. Testing the P860C each time. Neither motor FW, fixed the issue. I can only assume that the issue is in the P850C. Prior to the torque sensor disassemblely I reflashed both the motor and display.

I don't have a bootloader, so I will have to wait a month for the parts to show up. Hopefully the new high cadance version will work better.

 

[skestans]

Hi everyone,

Does everyone know the maximum operating temperature of the TSDZ2 neodymium magnets ? I'm doing some tests involving oil cooling but I don't know how hot can I go without damaging the magnets

80°C seems to be the limit for standard magnets but AH magnets can operate in temperatures up to 230°C

I think people successfully demagnetized their motors around the 100°C mark in the past.

 

[casainho]

I wired up my LCD3 and it registered variable ACD values. Thus, the torque sensor and motor controller are OK. I reflashed the motor with FW# 0.57, and #0. 57.2. Testing the P860C each time. Neither motor FW, fixed the issue. I can only assume that the issue is in the P850C. Prior to the torque sensor disassemblely I reflashed both the motor and display.

That is really strange, if other variables are showing as expected, the torque sensor ADC value should work also!! Many users did for instance the torque sensor calibration and no one reported the issue you are having..... Seems impossible to me that issue happening.

 

[r0mko]

I've installed a brass replacement gear to my TSDZ2 and oh man it sounds just awful. I've not expected it to be so ridiculously loud. I thought that it will make the whining sound louder, but in fact it hasn't changed. It makes grinding or rubbing noise so all the people nearby turn their heads.

I've ordered a new blue nylon gear, because my old is worn out and also makes an annoying whining sound. What kind of grease do you guys recommend to apply to the nylon?

 

[jeff.page.rides]

I've installed a brass replacement gear to my TSDZ2 and oh man it sounds just awful. I've not expected it to be so ridiculously loud. I thought that it will make the whining sound louder, but in fact it hasn't changed. It makes grinding or rubbing noise so all the people nearby turn their heads.

I've ordered a new blue nylon gear, because my old is worn out and also makes an annoying whining sound. What kind of grease do you guys recommend to apply to the nylon?

Something is definitely wrong, I run a brass gear in one of my bikes and it changed the frequency of the wine but it really isn't louder or worse. You must have a bad brass gear or something else is wrong or it was assembled incorrectly. I changed my gear to a brass gear because the one way bearing in the blue gear went bad and I needed to replace it right away and didn't have a blue gear available. I would take it back apart and see what's going on. Did you grease it up adequately with the correct Grease? My tsdz2 is on a hand cycle and it's right in front of my face so I definitely notice noise that you normally wouldn't when it's down at the bottom of a bike.

 

[RicMcK]

I wired up my LCD3 and it registered variable ACD values. Thus, the torque sensor and motor controller are OK. I reflashed the motor with FW# 0.57, and #0. 57.2. Testing the P860C each time. Neither motor FW, fixed the issue. I can only assume that the issue is in the P850C. Prior to the torque sensor disassemblely I reflashed both the motor and display.

That is really strange, if other variables are showing as expected, the torque sensor ADC value should work also!! Many users did for instance the torque sensor calibration and no one reported the issue you are having..... Seems impossible to me that issue happening.

Casainho. Today it worked!! I don't have a clue why, but all is good now. I removed the torque sensor and recalibrated it with the P860C. The removed torque sensor had an initial value of 275. I got it adjusted to 117. The zero with cranks and peddles is around 125.
Rides great

I guess the magic of repeated reboots

 

[colsaunders2]

After looking at the various methods that people have used to cool the TSDZ2, I decided to try silicone thermal putty (TG-PP10). 50 grams is only $30 and is just enough to fill the gap between the stator midsection and the side cover. The excess putty squeezed right up to the seals, so I think that was a good fit! I don't have a temperature sensor but have touched the cover after riding a few miles, and it is usually warm to the touch. Disassembly might be interesting, so I haven't popped open the cover since.

Also, I have ordered a new CSK30P bearing for the main gear since I have been getting a rhythmic noise while pedaling with motor assist for the last few hundred miles (just passed 1700 mi / 2700 km), and it seems like my pedal cadence/motor speed is too fast compared to the speedometer. Recently I heard a noticeable snap while taking off from a stop, and the noise was much more frequent afterwards. Ended up removing the whole motor and will likely re-purpose/sell it once repaired, if the MAC 8T I bought works out.

 

[Cristian]

I'm happy to report that i have made all the cooling modifications that are listed on the wiki page, except the one with plastic cover cutting. I have tried as hard as i could to make it overheat, going uphill (800W-900W) or on the flat with 45km/h and 500-600W continuous power, but i only managed to get it to 70° C once. It usually stays under 65° C and cools down very fast when it's not working hard.

I used 6.0 W/mK 2mm and 3mm thermal pads. With 5.15 W/mk thermal grease paste.

Before the mods, it would be at 85° C in 10 minutes of 500W and would cool down very slow. I would have to stay under 350W the rest of the trip, otherwise would go to 85° C much faster, being already a bit hot.

I will probably also be cutting the plastic cover in the summer heat to help it out a bit. Very happy with the result, it works great now.

 

[Veko]

I'm happy to report that i have made all the cooling modifications that are listed on the wiki page, except the one with plastic cover cutting. I have tried as hard as i could to make it overheat, going uphill (800W-900W) or on the flat with 45km/h and 500-600W continuous power, but i only managed to get it to 70° C once. It usually stays under 65° C and cools down very fast when it's not working hard.

I used 6.0 W/mK 2mm and 3mm thermal pads. With 5.15 W/mk thermal grease paste.

Before the mods, it would be at 85° C in 10 minutes of 500W and would cool down very slow. I would have to stay under 350W the rest of the trip, otherwise would go to 85° C much faster, being already a bit hot.

I will probably also be cutting the plastic cover in the summer heat to help it out a bit. Very happy with the result, it works great now.

That sound great! I guess you're running it on 52V battery? Do you have 48V or 36V version of the motor? I wonder if 36V version will have much higher heat generation than 48V version when running it with 52V battery.