Optibike FAQs? Dont stack up?

[Ypedal]

chalk up another thread shot to hell by safe's sidetracks..

Knoxie : Yeah.. those sales pitches are out of line.. they don't do either the industry as a whole, or optibike any good imo.

Give me facts, test results, side-by-side comparisons and leave the BS out of it.

Different strokes for different folks.. hubs vs chain drives. ford vs chevy, car vs truck.. pepsi vs coke.. start another thread if you want.

 

[dogman dan]

True, another thread sidetracked. Before my crash I never read page 2 of most threads. Now I'm laying in bed bored stiff, waiting to heal and fall into the trap of a discussion for it's entertainment value.

 

[Miles]

One day all the truths will come out.

The truth is out there....

 

[Link]

One day all the truths will come out.

The truth is out there....

Safe has it on his "Foe" list. :?

 

[Toorbough ULL-Zeveigh]

hey safe.
Just a gentle reminder of the thread subject:
Fa-Q.

 

[TylerDurden]

One day all the truths will come out.

With the new California ruling, mebbee even Arnold will come out.

@Link:

Too true!!! :lol: :lol:

 

[Miles]

One day all the truths will come out.

The truth is out there....

Safe has it on his "Foe" list. :?

:lol: :lol: :lol:

 

[Kraeuterbutter]

@knoxie:

"My Bike has a 1000 watts, how can the OptiBike be as fast?
The Optibike is the most efficient electric bike produced - over 75% of the battery power is transferred to the wheel. Many other electric bikes are around 30% efficient. So while the Optibike has 850 watts of power, the other bikes actually have far less."

30% efficient??????? eh where is this BS coming from what electric bikes do you know that are this inefficient? the optibike is surely pretty efficient but why deride the efficiency of other bikes which are a lot cheaper?

here is this crystalite hub-motor simulator: http://www.ebikes.ca/simulator/
try it out..
there are situations were you realy see only 30% efficience !

for example: a crystalite 406, with 24Volt --> its ok for 25-26km/h so street legal in europe
now go up with this a steep hill... lets assume the hill is that steep, that you only manage to go with 7-8km/h
then look at efficience.. it drops from an maxiumum of 78% at 24km/h down to only 30-35%

at the same hill the optibikes motor with proper gearing will be able to spin still in a very good efficient-range and for that will outrun the hub-motor by far..

if you say: silly motor-battery combination (thats how some bikes are sold)

lets take 411 and 48Volts
highest efficience: over 80%... at 200Watt and 33km/h
highest power: at 55% efficience with 430Watt at 18km/h

BUT: you will not manage to go up a steep hill with 18km/h and only 430Watt
so speed will go down further..
at 10km/h the efficience is only at 33%, power also droped to 300Watt

so: here the optibike (or any other "use the gears"-bike) will outperforme the hubmotor at same input power by far





@safe:

The ideal bike would place the battery in the middle of the bike (for better weight balance) use a small lightweight brushless motor (much like the RC motors) and gears. That sounds great, but the "complete package" doesn't exist yet, so we have to simply describe things that aren't being sold yet.

maybe close to that was the old Flyer F-Series:

1.) battery in the center (and easy removable so you can take it with you for charging)
2.) motor in the bottom bracket

and now it comes: the motor was a gearless ! motor, so absolut noisless (because it spins slower than a normal hub-motor in the wheels)
nevertheless you could use the gears of the bike

only downside: this kind of motor was heavy

this here for me looks like a good concept (except of the batteries.. there is a other frame needed to bring the batteries into the center of the bike):
http://www.kraeuterbutter.at/Bilder2/sonstiges/Bilder%20fuer%20Beitraege/Tretkurbelantrieb_mit_Radnabenmotor.jpg

to make the bike light:
maybe the Nano (tonxing) motor could be used, with only 2 kg weight, still geared but not with noisy gears but with quiet rolls for gearing

just look on the picture: with using the gears you can be as fast or even faster then with the same hub-motor mounted in the wheel..
with first gear you have - look on the picture - about 4 times more torque compared to the same motor mounted in the wheel..

imho one of the best ways (torque, speed, still not very loud because slow turning hub)

 

[Kraeuterbutter]

oh, knoxie:
when you say: "puh.. silly, there are no hills, that the hub-motor will slow down to only 10km/h, so the efficience will never go down that far as well"

10km/h with the 411 at 48Volt
that means:
a 24kg heavy bike with 90kg rider and a hill with only 15% !!!
this needs 500Watt power (200Watt from the cyclist and 300Watt from the crystalite)

on an 20% hill speed will already drop to 7,6km/h and with that the efficience will go down below 30%, but
still 500Watt are needed, the crystalite will only deliver 250Watt, so the cyclist already has to pedal also with 250Watt to manage the 7,6km/h

 

[knoxie]

Hi

I am a big fan of geared bikes, I own 2 of them myself and I dont disagree with the fact about overall efficiency however the Optibike blurb implies that hub motors are only 30% efficient, this is my gripe! and also not all hub motors are gearless either my Pumas are all geared, sure the opti has good efficiency compared to it but out on the flat theres nothing in it. My X5 is very efficient and climbs hills equally as well and efficiently as my geared machines (it sure is a lot heavier mind you)

The thing is that most people dont need to climb hills all day long, your average e-biker only needs mild occasional assistance up hills, this is why hub motors are so popular and probably out sell every other form of assist 10-1, there is no question that optibikes approach is a very good one, but the whole point with a hub motor is anybody can buy one and fit one to their bikes, with the optibike you need the optibike!

I am friends with Richard Papa and I want his venture to succeed big time! I also love the opti but just wish that they hadnt adopted this style of denigration marketing, the bike doesnt need it, they can leave that to the ebayers, I suspect when they were building the site it just got copied and pasted over from the US site.

Knoxie

 

[monster]

My Electric Bike goes 60 miles on a charge and is much lighter?
There are electric bicycles with advertised ranges of 60 miles and extremely lightweight. If you have one, and you find it actually goes 60 miles as advertised- congratulations, you have violated the laws of physics.

they are right to point out that most electric bikes are falsely advertised. most companies seem to quote the range that would occur if you didn't use the motor at all, while most people will use every last drop of power on a standard electric bike. the usual claim is 20-30 miles range for a battery that can only give 10 miles assist. IMO all range claims should be made WITH NO PEDALING then you could really see if you had been sold lies.

in an ideal world trading standards should be informed about some of these lies but i wouldn't want to get them involved in case they noticed all the great illegal bikes out there.

 

[mvadventure]

Sometimes I know I should simply stay quiet. I also know I should take a slow backswing and complete my follow through and that doesn't happen either. To me the question of maximum efficiency is not worth arguing. Dependability, range and speed are the arguments and maybe comfort. Assuming a legal 20 MPH, further assuming minimum wind and flat ground I'll bet a dollar to a donut my 5304 with 48 volts, 20 AH of LIPO4 will produce a minimum of thirty miles and likely forty. If I'd drop a few of these 225 pounds and if I would slow down to a speed I could actually assist by pedaling then the range would increase substantially. IMHO a person buying a high end ebike doesn't want to do a lot of pedaling and could care less about how the power system actually works. They want dependability, range and speed. Today's quality hub motors deliver that and require virtually no mainteance and almost no noise.

If an inexpensive geared bike was really practicle then Wall Mart would have the market cornered with the Curry. (that is geared isn't it?) For the dollars Optibike wants it should be as quiet as a hubmotorl. I'd try one out but the closest "ambassador" is in North Carolina. I'm not picking on Obtibike but for what they charge for one you can buy a new shaft drive 750cc motorcycle! You'd have enough left over for all the accessories you could carry. To me once a ebike gets over 2K it has gotta be great, really, really great.

Mike

 

[Link]

If an inexpensive geared bike was really practicle then Wall Mart would have the market cornered with the Curry. (that is geared isn't it?)

I think it's a fixed gear drive, so it's basically the same as a geared hub.

Only it's not a hub. :?

 

[Jay64]

For what its worth, my currie ezip has a fixed gear drive on the motor, it does have gears on the pedal side.

Knoxie, have you sent an email to Richard pointing this out to him? Sometimes people get caught up in their business and don't fully read everything that their "ad man" puts out.

 

[knoxie]

Hi Jay

Yes good point :lol: I dont think that I have to be honest! oh well I figured he may read this and chip in as he does read the forums.

MV some good points raised by you as well, I agree with all of them! the Hub motor is the king for a good reason! whilst the Opti is a great machine it is out of the reach of 99 percent of folks and sadly wont break the market, it will however sell that is for sure as some folks will like the status and the quality of the bike, I am sure it will out handle all of the hub motor based bikes that is for sure I think the new sealed box type is a lot quieter though, I do like the silence of the X5 you just cant hear it, you can feel it sometimes!!

Knoxie

 

[deerfencer]

I'll add my two cents to this debate and basically agree with Knoxie that Opti is guilty of scattershot, somewhat dubious marketing in targeting hub motors as inherently inferior to Opti's geared motor. They're simply two very different approaches, each with its advantages and drawbacks. IMO Paul is dead on when he says that Opti should be playing on its strengths vs looking to pick fights with their competition, namely emphasizing the superior ride and handling, relatively low weight, and road bike-like nature of the Optibike.

Full disclosure: I ride a slightly souped-up (24Ah 37V True RC lipoly-powered) 36V Tidalforce S750X that is dead silent and easily capable of the 10-mile, 30 mph average speed Safe posted as undoable in a hub motor-powered e-bike--and this at just 37-39 running volts. I ride Uma with occasional use of road-style clip-on aerobars (Syntace C2) and 1.9" semi-slick rubbers, routinely take sharp curves @ 25 mph and in about 6000-7000 fast miles have never crashed. I can pedal-assist into the 35-38 mph range on fast flats since I upgraded to a 53T large chainring in front and can climb mild grades @ 28 mph or so. Average climbing speed over longer graduated climbs is about 20-22 mph. Downhill I hesitate to even post how fast I've gone--let's just say the bike can and does easily exceed 50 mph on steeper grades and I have pushed the 60 mph envelope on occasion. I think what Safe misses is the aerodynamics of any ride, which is key at speeds over 25 mph. On dead flats I can average 27 mph with moderate pedaling and 1/2 power assist (600W or so) on the aerobars. I have little doubt a 1000W E+ configured similarly to mine could easily match my numbers as the motor is similar to the Wavecrest motor, which remains to me the crown jewel of the Tidalforce effort. At the current discounted price of $3K or so, the 1000W E+ strikes me as a great deal right now.

But I stray from my original point re the fallacy that hub motors are inherently inferior to geared: Efficiency-wise I have seen as high as 3 miles per Ah on my SX in relaxed mode over gently graded blacktop, which IMO is impressive for a 90 lb bike (batteries and emergency toolbag included) with a 235 lb rider aboard. I pedal vigorously--probably 60-70% perceived effort on average, higher on climbs--but isn't that what you're supposed to do on an e-assist bike?

In brief, there are SO many variables re efficiency on any bike that to harp on the geared vs non-geared motor issue is just a distraction from the main issue, which is an overall robust, reliable, and enjoyable ride. Personally I have been spoiled silly by the silent, seamless nature of the Wavecrest system, and doubt I'll ever ride a geared system again. (Had a Currie kit e-ride and a then a POS Lashout before my SX; both were crude but capable after some tweaking with the electronics.)

Larry Hayes

 

[es2150]

Dig what this guy above said. Opti will not climb at those speeds period. And the e+/wavecrest bikes being direct drive and batt in wheel is genius. Silent, fast, even on hills, all around good bike. Kinda think it is exactly what normal person would expect of ebike. Opti seems like the adventure, torque, roadie bike to me, also, very refined and well done. Hope they are ready for the revolution cause the ghost looked killer with 48v!