Phoenix 2 4840 or 7240? Noob, yes. Confused? Indeed.

[Danschutz]

Ive been bouncing back and forth between mid drive and DD and due to the extra maintenance for the mid drive (Very tight life/work schedule) I decided to go with the DD.

One decision down a few left lol. Im highly considering the Phoenix II DD, the catch is which one.
The 4840 brute does nearly everything I need it to. Ive seen them get up to 35mph and I cruise around 27-32 normally except for the 10% of the time I would like a little more speed and I hope to ride the bike off road a little, nothing extreme (Im old, well old-ish) no drop offs maybe a little air here and there. While the 4840 Brute covers 90% of my needs is it worth the extra 450.00 bucks to upgrade to the 7240 Brute? I think that DD should cover all my needs.

The question I guess is for those that have been in my shoes and for those that can reflect on their own experience with bikes they owned or have owned.

Also I emailed Paul at EM3EV and he can build me a 72V battery using 20R cells.
Here are the specs:
SDI INR18650-20R

Configuration 21S, 6P

V(nom) 75.6

Ah(nom) 11.4

Whrs 861.84

He notes that The 20R cell are 10C rated, we only have a larger 80A BMS available in 21s.

From what I gather this should be enough battery for about 18 miles? Although I don't know if that means I can go all throttle for that many miles or
if I peddle I can squeeze more miles out of the pack.

FWIW I called and talked with Mark at Electric Rider and he said he rides a 4840 cruiser and almost always wishes he had the 7240.

Almost forgot! One last quandary. I recently purchased 2 batteries from Golden Motors. One 48V 10ah for the wifes bike and one 48v 15ah 3C rating of 45amps for my bike, its brand new and when I purchased it I had planned on getting a cyclone but I suspect it may be underpowered for the 4840 and now that Im going with a rear DD I don't want all the weight to the rear. If I go with the 4840 any suggestions on this battery lol. Ive thought about just selling it at a slight loss to get a lighter smaller pack from EM3EV.

Thank you in advance for any direction you can give a guy that just cant make up his mind!!!!!

Dan L.

 

[FfredDRredD]

Hello Dan, i didn't have the advantage of ES when choosing my stuff because didn't know there was such a thing. I chose the 7240 brute, its really heavy but i'm glad I got what I got

 

[Danschutz]

Hello Dan, i didn't have the advantage of ES when choosing my stuff because didn't know there was such a thing. I chose the 7240 brute, its really heavy but i'm glad I got what I got

Thank you for the reply Fred.

Couple questions What is your battery set up and how many miles can you travel on a single charge?

Have you ridden the bike "off-road" at all, if so how'd it do?

And.....what is your top speed thus far? Does it really haul butt up 20% grades?

Thanks again!!!

Dan L.

Oops. How heavy is that rear wheel??

 

[wesnewell]

Do you really know what the Phoenix II is? IFAICT, it's just a Crystalite Hx35xx motor that they've renamed Looks like the only difference in most is the controller, which they charge an outrageous premium for. Now if you don't mind spend 2-3 times more than you need to I'm sure they'll be happy to sell you a kit and provide good service. OTOH, this will serve you just as well.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Electric-Bicycle-48V1000W-LCD-Display-26-Rear-Wheel-Motor-Kit-E-Bike-Conversion-/291107241753
If you want to run 72V, you can buy a 1500W 72V 45A controller for ~$50 That will put out even a little more than their 7240 controller. BTW, they list max watts for their controllers, not the controllers rating. Using that, the $50 controller is 3240W. If they had any scruples they'd list the actual rating, but I'd guess it's 1000-1500W too.

 

[dogman dan]

I was about to write that too. The main difference is one clyte kit has a 48v controller and the other has 72.

So now it's time to examine your needs and purposes. 48v 40amps is a healthy wattage, about 2000. Plenty to get up reasonable grade hills, so street or dirt riding under 10% grades will fly with ease.

72v will let you fry a motor much quicker, if you are climbing 20% grades. 3000w. Motors heat up fast when you are running 50% efficiency at 3000w.

Mid drive territory IMO. Or time for extreme slow wind motors, extreme small wheel builds, etc. Not stock kits.

72v is faster. 72v if your prime desire is to join the 40 mph club.

 

[Danschutz]

Do you really know what the Phoenix II is?

I did know that, I learned it on this board but it seems to have high praise for being what it is. Please understand I'd LOVE to save some cash but now Im even more confused lol. They give two different description 4840 and 7240, one is the cruiser and the other a brute. So both of them are the same wheel? How do they get more torque out of one and more speed from the other?

The first Ebike I rode had a ebay 1000w 48v wheel and while you couldn't slap the grin off my face I was still thinking this thing needs more power! The best Ive done on that bike is 32mph on a long stretch of road however it was running on SLA batteries, perhaps that's the difference? Does the wheel in your link run past 35mph?

After doing hours of research and seeing the phoenix 2 and Crystalite in the "top" drives you can buy I thought I was on the right track but you guys know your stuff so I guess Im back to page one lol. Thank you for your input on this hopefully you just saved me some cash

Dan L.

 

[wesnewell]

HS3540 or HS3548, and then you have the HT models, HT3525. These are all the same motor with different windings. HS meaning high speed, HT meaning high torque. The 35 referring to stator width, the 25, 40, 48 referring to speed in kph.

 

[nicobie]

the 25, 40, 48 referring to speed in kph.

At 48V

My 3525 at 24s hits 42 mph and never gets hot.

 

[Danschutz]

I was about to write that too. The main difference is one clyte kit has a 48v controller and the other has 72.

So now it's time to examine your needs and purposes. 48v 40amps is a healthy wattage, about 2000. Plenty to get up reasonable grade hills, so street or dirt riding under 10% grades will fly with ease.

72v will let you fry a motor much quicker, if you are climbing 20% grades. 3000w. Motors heat up fast when you are running 50% efficiency at 3000w.

Mid drive territory IMO. Or time for extreme slow wind motors, extreme small wheel builds, etc. Not stock kits.

72v is faster. 72v if your prime desire is to join the 40 mph club.

Ha, it just sunk into my old brain. The main difference in the ebay wheel I tried and the Phoenix or the ebay wheel Wes linked me to is the extra amps running through it? I think Ive over researched this. My goal is not to fry a bunch of hubs lol so perhaps 72v's is not the right direction for me

I agree with time to examine my needs. When researching the mid drives and taking my rear cassette into account my top speed would be less than 30mph. I don't remember the exact tooth count on my Specialized but on the bike Im looking at buying (2008 Kona Stinky) has 9-speeds, 11 - 32 cassette. Im also looking at a 2008 Specialized Stumpjumper and the gears are 9-speed, 11 - 34 teeth. Am I wrong in thinking my top speed will be less than 30 mph?

I would like to go around 40mph if need be but I was thinking that if my bike could go 40 then I wouldn't be straining it at 35 mph.

I cannot thank you guys enough, really I cant stress that enough lol.

Dan L.

 

[Danschutz]

HS3540 or HS3548, and then you have the HT models, HT3525. These are all the same motor with different windings. HS meaning high speed, HT meaning high torque. The 35 referring to stator width, the 25, 40, 48 referring to speed in kph.

Thanks for that explanation!

I was hoping to get a high torque hub like the Phoenix, what do you suppose the Ebay hub is? High speed or high torque?

Dan L.

the 25, 40, 48 referring to speed in kph.

At 48V

My 3525 at 24s hits 42 mph and never gets hot.

48v and 40 amps?

 

[999zip999]

It's not the volts that melts motors. It's the amps. So 100v and 10 amps is a1000watts of cool running motor. Plus must match the controller voltage and amps for battery and motor.100v and 40amps is 4000watts and melts motors in 2-10 min. Or so.
What needed is a battery that can take the demands of the hungry controller. Things must match. And the money needs to go the battery first.

 

[Danschutz]

It's not the volts that melts motors. It's the amps. So 100v and 10 amps is a1000watts of cool running motor. Plus must match the controller voltage and amps for battery and motor.100v and 40amps is 4000watts and melts motors in 2-10 min. Or so.
What needed is a battery that can take the demands of the hungry controller. Things must match. And the money needs to go the battery first.

Ok, that's a great explanation. So if I go with the link Wes suggested and a good proper controller Im good?

If I go with a 48v 40 amp battery which controller do you suggest to get up around the 35-37 mph range maybe with some decent torque.

Thank you,
Dan L.

*EDIT
Between the battery savings and the kit savings you guys probably saved me a bundle

 

[dogman dan]

Hard to explain all the things you are confused about, and some that I may have been too.

A 4840 brute and a 4872 brute would be the same motor with different controllers. But a brute and racer are different rpm windings of the same or similar motor.

In the past, both racer and brute were "phoenix" models. Both 5400 series motors. What they sell today, which exact crystalyte models they call what, I cannot say. Electric rider has always had to call their stuff something slightly sexier than other vendors.

I don't know if all they sell now is HS, HT model, or if they sell both. If like the past, they will give expected speeds at 48v, and the slow one will be better on hills. NOT more torque. Same torque. But the HS will heat up faster on an extreme grade than the HT.

I don't know where to point you, since I have no idea what you want. Typically a new guy wants it all, and expects to pay about $1000 less than having it all costs. I take a different approach, building separate bikes for differing needs. Some run 36 or 48v, others 72 or 120v.

It can be a good way to go, to start with a cheap ebay kit, and go kill it. Then you get some clues which things you can and can't have. Many find that cheap kit so hard to kill at 48v, they ride happy for years.

So buy the ebay 1000w 48v kit. It will go fast. When you want to go faster, get another controller, pony up for more batteries, and see how long it takes you to melt it at 72v. Then, perhaps a year from now, you will be ready to buy a bigger motor, and have some experience to base that purchase on. You may find 30 mph on your bike quite scary enough as it is.

 

[Danschutz]

Thank you Dogman for such an indepth reply.

I initially figured about 1800 ish for this build and what Im trying to avoid is multiple builds. My garage, my time and my wife just wont have it lol.

I have a Dyno Gt Franco and a older Specialized Rockhopper that I could build but I was hoping to build the bike on a full suspension frame.

If I could get a bike that would cruise around 27-32 mph with a top speed of near 40mph (in case I need to stay up with traffic) and could also go off in the dirt and grass with slight inclines that would be great. Id like to keep it kind of quite so I can hit the bike trails with the wife (she has an electric) and grand daughter without making a ton of noise.

I absolutely do not mind dishing out (ok, I kinda mind lol) money for the right battery be it 48v or 72v. I don't make a lot of money and I just dropped 1200 bucks on the batteries I have now and while the wifes battery is a perfect fit for her needs I don't think I thought mine all the way through thus the query into which direction I should go for my needs.

Again thank you!

Dan. L.

 

[999zip999]

What motor do you now have on your bike ?

 

[999zip999]

Put the 72v in the triangle of the rockhopper if large enough frame. Ask Paul if it could fit. Mesure and send to paul. Get the Wesnell motor from L.A. with 72v controller. Cheap enough to melt and ez to get.

 

[dogman dan]

Ok, 72v it is then, if you really want 40 mph. Out in the street, with the potholes, whatever fell off the truck, manhole covers etc, I found 40 mph suicidal.

But others take it in stride. Or have good suspension that makes it work better. Enjoy, when you have only the front wheel touching the ground at 40 mph. Dress for it. I you can RIDE, you know all this shit and don't mind laying er down at 40. We never know who we are talking to at first.

I just went and looked at the ER website. They used to have three speeds of motor, brute (the slowest), cruiser, and racer. Now they have brute and racer. My assumption is that the brute is an HT model, and the Cruiser is the HS model. For your needs, the Cruiser is going to be faster. Since you don't plan to ride up a ski hill, you don't need the brute.

Choose a controller based on the speed you want. You should be able to hit 40 mph with the 72v one. Then prepare yourself to pay a lot of money for a 72v battery able to dish out 40 amps that is plug and play. For this reason many of us risk burning down the house, and use RC lico chemistry batteries. With 20c discharge rates or more, the rc stuff can run a 40 amps controller on 10 ah of it.

Think REAL HARD. Do you want 40 mph bad enough to pay for the safe battery? Do you want it bad enough for a battery that is a mad scientist experiment?

Much closer to your house, you can get better versions of the Hs motor from Grin cyclery. That's where I'd recommend you buy a Crystalyte. Their most powerful controller also accepts a wide voltage range, which can be a big plus.

http://www.ebikes.ca/shop/ebike-parts/controllers.html

 

[Danschutz]

Dogman thank you and others for taking time to help me along. You've given me a lot to think about and the last couple days I've been home sick from the shop so I've had time to examine my needs better.

I think what's best for me is to have two bikes (per your suggestion), one for the hills and one for cruising. We get so little riding weather here that having money into two ebikes seems ridiculous so for now my thoughts are to build a full suspension bike and use the gng LR kit unless his orders are so booked up that I can't get it then I may get a stock gng and mod as I go. For the cruiser bike I'll probably just use my Cannondale supersix and peddle back and forth to work or long rides on the bike paths. Then maybe next year get a eBay hub and attach it to my Dyno GT, have my battery do double duty switching between bikes. I think that a 48v 40 amp battery should do the trick.

What'd you think?

Dan L.

 

[FfredDRredD]

Hello Dan, sorry took so long for reply, been very busy. my bike has 72v of the lead pigs it is really heavy I think its about 60lbs of batteries. I've had it up to 52mph on flat smooth pavement no wind and i ride river trails bike trails and road, does good everywhere but its REAL heavy so you would have to ride it in such a way. when first started riding it could 32miles 15mph no peddling on 1 charge. I've had difficultly putting batteries in best place-steve a few days ago I wanted to see how far it would go full throttle, it went 8miles at 45mph but thats with about 30 more lbs than it used to have

 

[Danschutz]

Hello Dan, sorry took so long for reply, been very busy. my bike has 72v of the lead pigs it is really heavy I think its about 60lbs of batteries. I've had it up to 52mph on flat smooth pavement no wind and i ride river trails bike trails and road, does good everywhere but its REAL heavy so you would have to ride it in such a way. when first started riding it could 32miles 15mph no peddling on 1 charge. I've had difficultly putting batteries in best place-steve a few days ago I wanted to see how far it would go full throttle, it went 8miles at 45mph but thats with about 30 more lbs than it used to have

I understand busy lol thank you for responding!
Wow that's a lot of get up and go. Are you running 40amps or more? Also what's the ah on those batteries?

My last post I had mentioned that I was going to get the LR gng kit but looks as though he is way overbooked I'll probably get a dd this year and see what's available next year, who knows what new technology might arise.

Dan L.

 

[FfredDRredD]

yeah its a 40amp controller, 12ah batteries. I can only imagine what it could do with lighter batteries of same voltage, it would be nice but can't really afford that right now