Proflex FS MTB ebike build. NEED HELP! Ideas/Opinion welcome

[RageNR]

Hello everyone. Long time (on/off) lurker. Been meaning to make an account for.. 7 years?? LMAO

Anyways, I am getting ready to build an ebike. My first in fact. I have a lot of ideas and even more questions.
(if anyone has the newer Cyclone setup or kit from Luna Cycles, I would appreciate your input on measurements. Read 2nd part please)

1st off - The Platform
I just picked up a 1996 ProFlex Beast today for a few bucks. I have researched this bike for about a week before deciding to go for it.
Chose this bike for the cost, cool vintage factor, funky design, and good build quality. Basically the ratio of performance/cost.

A respected and OLD full suspension MTB. 26in wheels, with a crazy unique front fork design. I literally just picked it up hours ago, and it needs some work. Right now it is ugly as sin. A few rattle cans will fix that... (I know I am going to catch flak from the vintage bicycle purists. That's ok.. BRING IT ON)
It is a 16in frame, so a bit on the small side. That is ok. I am fine with the the bike being a bit smaller in hopes of a more compact, balanced, lighter weight ebike.
I might mod the frame eventually to accept gas shocks like a RockShox or Fox. For now the spring oil dampend shocks are alright.

After looking at the bike, does anyone have opinions on the frame of choice? I do not have the funds to run out and but a nicer FS frame. For the $$ spent, I think this was about the best "bang for the buck" I am going to get.


2nd - Kit Options
I am planning on buying the Cyclone kit from Luna Cycles. However, I plan on mounting mine in a different fashion.

What I would like to do is mount the motor above the crank if the frame will allow. If someone could get some better measurements of the the Cyclone motor (diameter, depth, circumference), and also the mounting bracket. (overall length, height, distance from center of crank hole to the closest point of the motor when mounted).

I understand that this may change how the bike handles due to the weight being up higher. It may not work out so well. All I can do is try and see how it goes.
The idea is to eventually make an enclosure around the midframe to make the appearance more stealthy. Of course, adequate airflow will have to me maintained.


3rd - Output Goals
I would like to push this motor to hopefully upwards of 1800 watts. Closer to 2500 if my electronics will allow.
I'll just list what I am hoping to achieve:
- 72v Nominal (84v fully charged?)
- Dual Voltage setup 36v/72v (i will expand on this later)
- If dual voltage does not work out then 60v triangle pack
- 50+mph. Hoping to achieve 55-60mph
- Range? Have no idea. Reason for dual voltage setup. 30+miles on 72v would be nice
- Retain at least some of the MTB suspension travel
- Stealthy as possible
- Mild mode + H4UL A$$ mode
- Maybe a nice 4k 17in and bluetooth hometheather soundbar


4th - Electronics
So I am hoping to be able to use a dual voltage setup. 72v/36v.
Reason is, I want to haul a$$ as well as be able to ride in the city with some good range. My idea is to buy 2 identical 36v packs and make a small jumper to allow me to plug in the batts in series or parallel.
Doesn't sound too complicated. I just wonder if the controller will handle a lower voltage well if it was designed to run a higher voltage. Amps will be 2x on 36v = 60amps total.

So that leaves 2 questions..
Will the stock controller that comes in the Luna Cyclone Kit handle 84v ok? I know it is rated up to 80v. Surely 4v more will not be a problem. If it is, I could use a charger like the GRIN Satiator to charge to 4.05-4.1v to keep the voltage down, and prolong the life of the battery pack.
Can that same controller effectively use 42v-36v? Or be made to work?

These are the batt packs that I have in mind: http://lunacycle.com/batteries/packs/36v/36v-samsung-or-panasonic-ebike-rear-rack-14-5-or-17ah-w-charger/

My concern is that they can only support 30amps. In 72v mode you have more voltage to offset the amp draw. Will 30 be enough? In 36v mode I will have 2x30amp = 60amp. Seems sufficient at least for 36v. I think I will use these in a backpack. Have the connector just under the bike seat, batt packs go with me when I walk away from the bike.
If the dual voltage does not work out, I may have to settle for the 60v triangle pack.

Luna does not offer a 72v. So either I have to buy from somewhere else, settle for 60v, or build my own. And if I go with the 60v triangle pack, I want to try to fit it in the frame.
Never built a li-ion pack before, though I am sure I could. Not keen on building such a high voltage/capacity pack for my 1st endeavor.
The 60v pack would really hurt my top end. I think it would be difficult to reach 50mph on just 60v. Correct me if I am wrong here.

I most likely will be purchasing a GRIN Cycle Analyst soon. I would also like to purchase a GRIN Satiator charger, if I end up going with the 60v pack. The 36v packs come with chargers to my understanding.




So its super late and that is all I can think of for now. More will come to me later I hope.
Sorry for such a long read. I like to be as descriptive as possible so people do not ask repeat questions for lack of details. I gave all that I could think of.

I want to hear opinions, thoughts, and questions. Tell me of your experiences and ventures.

 

[nutnspecial]

I like the bike and drive choice . . . but holy moly that's some top speed! I would def want a steel or newer dh frame for really fast or really hard riding. Perhaps road (ish) riding at that speed would be fine but I would be scared of potholes, etc! The lighter al frames are prone to give into any material or fab defects more as they age. . .

I can't help much with diy packs or the cyclone in particular, but if you didn't already see my build you can check it. cyclone/bigblock variant on an older xc frame, run parallel to the pedals. Were you thinking of mounting the cyclone in the triange? Congrats on the first build, have fun!

 

[RageNR]

Bro, I like your build. Mid-drive on a psychedelic Klien.
Me? Too fast you say?? LOL You are probably right. I will most likely chicken out at 45mph. Just want to build it to go 55 in case I have a death wish that day or something.

It like having a fast car. You don't have to drive it fast, but it sure is nice to know there are some ponies in reserve if they are needed.

As for the frame.. I am not sure if the ProFlex really could handle 60mph. I mean, it is called a "Pro FLEX". What could go wrong?
I have a Walmart dual suspension Mongoose MGX D40 that we bought back in the late 90s or early 00s. Thing is built like a tank. (and a heavy mofo too)
Just found out though that there was a recall on the front fork. So I am about to have to retire that one for a while till all that is settled.

Other than that, my only other candidate was my mint Cannondale Trail 5 hardtail. I honestly thought hard about it, but could not bear to mess that one up.
For 2 bills on a mid 90s $1800 USA made full suspension bike, I wont be out all that much if it doesn't last. Besides, my ride will be lookin fab as I faceplant at highway speeds.

 

[E-geezer]

Wow, that's a blast from the past....

Those bikes are steep and twitchy compared to more modern geometry, they were really a race bike with a little under damped suspension on either end. Weight was a huge concern, so underbuilt compared to now as well, I'd worry about how it will handle the added weight. It'd probably be fine as a commuter to noodle around on pavement, I think it'd be a handful off road and downright scary at high speeds. Wear a full face if you're going to go that fast....

A old, beat up DH frame is really the best idea

 

[RageNR]

If you have more experience with this bike, I would love to hear what you have to say.

I think it'd be a handful off road and downright scary at high speeds.

- Just how I like it

Where we are, it is mostly flat land. Off-road is a slightly dusty paved road.
I don't think I will run it much past 40, but I would like to build it to go faster so the kit is ready if/when I get a better suitable frame.

Oh did I mention that I will be ridding with rim crushers? Wonder how high Magura can scream?

A old, beat up DH frame is really the best idea

Do you have any recommendations? I mean I already bought the ProFlex, but would be nice to keep an eye out for other frames should a good deal pop up.

 

[gman1971]

With a cyclone 3000W mid drive you'll be hard pressed to hit 45 mph on that upright bike.

When you wreck that "handful off road and downright scary at high speeds" at 40 mph and get air lifted to the nearest hospital you won't be so agreeing to your statement. I've crashed with my Cyclone 3000W eBike at 25 mph and broke a rib and it took 1 month for the shoulder pain to heal...

Knowing now this bike frame is not good for high speed I would never consider this as a candidate for eBiking... look for a DH bike as the other poster stated.

G.

 

[nutnspecial]

RageNR I'd just do a little research to see if there is any problem area on those frames, and keep an eye on that and the rest of the frame/ride (as any operator should do anyway).

Throw the kit on there and see how ya like it and the bike handling. Sounds to me like it might be quite ideal for the riding you describe, although high speed is obv taking more risk- that I would not and also would not wanna trade low end for it anyway. Imo 60mph very often even on any bike components (regardless of frame) is a bit unneccessary. If I want 40+ I ride my suzuki that gets reasonable mileage and has the balls to get outof other drivers' ways, besides comfortable safe cruising @ highway speeds. It's all legal and dot etc of course also . . .

Anyway, my light susp xc frame is still great under power for what it was intended- XC - and yes this included some 40 and 50mph that was not 'twitchy' or uncomfortable on reasonable terrain before it was converted too. Best way to keep a bike performing as designed is watch the geometry and weight dist, and the mid cyclone sounds like a great match for the bike. For more money you might want to also consider the lighter tangent kit, tho there's something to be said for the extra iron and copper needing less reduction in cyclones and variants.

I would def gear the thing < 40mph so you still have some bottom end efficiency. You can always gear it up later.
Also confirm reliability and/or any known issues with the frame.

I suppose you know you might have to hunt down some members/threads for timely answers to some of the battery and cyclone specific questions you are asking here. Have fun with it and keep posted bro!

 

[gman1971]

I don't think there is a way to gear the bike down to <40 on a Cyclone mid drive as the Cyclone mid-drive uses the bike gears so whatever he has is whatever gearing he'll run; limited most likely by the aerodynamic drag.

I checked out your build and is nice, I like the 11T motor 50T rear cog combo, and I assume that you're running some insane amount of RPM at the motor to get to 40 mph (which is the right way to do it IMO). That unfortunately is not easily doable with a Cyclone 3000W motor, which is a geared motor; so the max RPM you'll get will be ~1200 at the output shaft @ 18S. You can go higher voltage, but then you'll need a different controller. Cyclone makes a 7.5 kW kit that doesn't have a geared motor, with that one you could theoretically run it at some crazy HV to get more RPM.

The problem I see with your setup is that its a one-trick pony, just like a hub. Its either good at low end, or good at top end, but not at the two at the same time, and not very efficient either except at one small RPM window and you need a good controller to make it work. The beauty of the Cyclone 3000W is that, first the entire kit is just 380 bucks from Luna Cycle (US based store), and comes with everything included (except battery) and then there is a large community who has plenty of experience with it. The kit has proven to be very reliable. Not a one-off thing that good luck finding parts at reasonable prices. This is as cheap as it gets to have a 3000W eBike with very little hassle.

G.

 

[WoodlandHills]

With a cyclone 3000W mid drive you'll be hard pressed to hit 45 mph on that upright bike.

When you wreck that "handful off road and downright scary at high speeds" at 40 mph and get air lifted to the nearest hospital you won't be so agreeing to your statement. I've crashed with my Cyclone 3000W eBike at 25 mph and broke a rib and it took 1 month for the shoulder pain to heal...

Knowing now this bike frame is not good for high speed I would never consider this as a candidate for eBiking... look for a DH bike as the other poster stated.

G.

Did you get a helo ride? I just got to lay in the dirt until paramedics arrived and then bounce back down the mtn in the back of an ambulance...... It's been 3 months and counting since I have been able to ride, and this was at 25mph!!

 

[E-geezer]

If you have more experience with this bike, I would love to hear what you have to say.

I think it'd be a handful off road and downright scary at high speeds.

- Just how I like it

Where we are, it is mostly flat land. Off-road is a slightly dusty paved road.
I don't think I will run it much past 40, but I would like to build it to go faster so the kit is ready if/when I get a better suitable frame.

Oh did I mention that I will be ridding with rim crushers? Wonder how high Magura can scream?

A old, beat up DH frame is really the best idea

Do you have any recommendations? I mean I already bought the ProFlex, but would be nice to keep an eye out for other frames should a good deal pop up.

I haven't ridden one since they were new, but I remember there were better options even then which is why you don't see those forks around any more. The shocks are effectively undamped, which means they will pogo. Not a huge deal at lower speeds and with the short travel suspension, but not the best option when going fast. If you are on dirt roads, you should be OK. I wouldn't run it at 50, but it sounds like you're unlikely to get going that fast any way. If you can pick up a conventional fork cheap, that could be another way to go, you could also then have discs up front too. The rear end isn't going to do much or matter much anyway.

There's a lot of builds here where people have used old DH frames, if you keep your eyes open and get a deal on one, you could always swap everything over some where in the future.

 

[nutnspecial]

Thanks gman, I thought the cyclone was very similar to bigblock and bht. If it spins 1200 on 18s it should be very doable to run from crank to cassette for alot or a little speed. Seeing it has the full range of cassette/fw to work through, that will add efficiency forgiveness too.

Mine with kv of about 30 spins around 2500rpm on 18s. With a lightish ride, there is plently of low end torque that hasn't burned the motor yet, even when the gear ratio provided over 40mph. If the motor has some heft to it and isn't a complete pig with power they can handle a good bit. But surely, there are limits to all motors and designs. Btw thanks also for the compliment RageNR!

 

[gman1971]

I am not sure if I read this post correctly? Are you talking to me? or to the OP?

I had no idea you also wrecked... super-sorry to hear man, and hope you get better soon. That is the reason why I went with a trike... for me risking my life on two wheels was too much after that wreck... I can imagine how bad you felt. I have my wreck on tape too to remind myself how dangerous it can be.

G.

With a cyclone 3000W mid drive you'll be hard pressed to hit 45 mph on that upright bike.

When you wreck that "handful off road and downright scary at high speeds" at 40 mph and get air lifted to the nearest hospital you won't be so agreeing to your statement. I've crashed with my Cyclone 3000W eBike at 25 mph and broke a rib and it took 1 month for the shoulder pain to heal...

Knowing now this bike frame is not good for high speed I would never consider this as a candidate for eBiking... look for a DH bike as the other poster stated.

G.

Did you get a helo ride? I just got to lay in the dirt until paramedics arrived and then bounce back down the mtn in the back of an ambulance...... It's been 3 months and counting since I have been able to ride, and this was at 25mph!!

 

[RageNR]

Thanks for all the input guys. Sorry to hear about your accidents.
I'm very attentive to detail. Keeping an eye on the frame is high on the priority list. For the past 7-8yrs, I have found myself driving with no radio/music. I prefer to listen to the vehicle and identify problems before they become an issue. Hope that can speak for my mentality.

I do understand that there are risks involved. For me personally, some risk is preferred. Not trying to be bullheaded, so please do not take it that way. I will probably be singing a different tune once I do wreck. To date, I have yet to break a bone, or suffer any serious injuries, after doing some pretty stupid stuff. May the good Lord bless our poor careless souls.

I have been conversing with Gman over on the electricbike forums. Think I am going to go with 3x of the Multistar 6S 20,000mAh packs from HobbyKing.
These should be capable of 200a at 66.6v with a combined output of 13,320W. More than enough for the 3000W Cyclone kit, and ample room to upgrade later.
If the Cyclone kit is pulling 20-50a on average, I will be using less than 25% of the 20Ah packs capability. This should equate to very cool temps, low stress, and long service life. WIN x3?

So here are the specs I am looking at_________
Multistar 6S 20,000mAh 22.2v 10C (20C burst)
Price: $145.92 International Warehouse --- $158.40 USA West [I do not have prices for shipping yet]
Voltage: 3x 22.2v = 66.6v (75.6v fully charged)
Amperage: 10C @ 20Ah = 200amps (400a burst)
Capacity: 20Ah @ 66.6v = 1332Wh
Watt Output: 13,320W
Pack Size: 7.87in x 3.54in x 2.36in
Pack Weight: 5.3lbs (so about 16lbs total)
Charge Rate: Up to 2C

As I mention before, I am considering using a backpack for the cells. That is actually my goal at this point.
I like the redundancy of multiple packs. I also like that the packs will go with me when I walk away from the bike. I may have to build cases for them as they seem to be fairly vulnerable to impact.

The only thing to decide is the charger for these beasts. If there is a charger that could handle all 3 simultaneously, that would be great. Have not seen any recommendations for these 20Ah packs yet.
Should I charge them at the 2C? I am ok with 1C, but faster is desirable if recharge times are going to exceed 6hrs. Obviously I would like to keep the packs healthy. I would not charge them at 2C all the time. Anyone have recommendations?

 

[gman1971]

With a cyclone 3000W mid drive you'll be hard pressed to hit 45 mph on that upright bike.

When you wreck that "handful off road and downright scary at high speeds" at 40 mph and get air lifted to the nearest hospital you won't be so agreeing to your statement. I've crashed with my Cyclone 3000W eBike at 25 mph and broke a rib and it took 1 month for the shoulder pain to heal...

Knowing now this bike frame is not good for high speed I would never consider this as a candidate for eBiking... look for a DH bike as the other poster stated.

G.

Did you get a helo ride? I just got to lay in the dirt until paramedics arrived and then bounce back down the mtn in the back of an ambulance...... It's been 3 months and counting since I have been able to ride, and this was at 25mph!!

No helo ride (would've been nice, and expensive), fortunately I was able to still ride home, at first I felt sore, but around two hours after getting home my left ribcage started to hurt... the shoulder pain took about 1 month to subside.

Yes, if you fall the wrong way 25 mph is all it takes... sucks to wreck... and that's why I ride a trike now... not ever in my sane mind I'll ride two wheels ever again.

G.

 

[gman1971]

I replied to you on the other forum. I have two Turnigy Reaktors, one single and one dual channel, 300W per channel. (13 amps at 6S) so I can charge my 18S 32,000 in about 3 hours flat. These chargers have been very good.

G.

 

[nutnspecial]

Mine and some others have a different approach to charging naked lipo. Since highest risk is likely when charging, a charge close to recommended rate under supervision is best target. Also, most consider it very undesirable to disconnect and reconnect packs for each charge, so 'bulk' charging is key.

That can be done in conjunction with a bms to manage cell levels, or also naked. Many have no need for a bms, especially when they do supervised charging and manage levels themselves. I use three MW HRP 300w in series that allows for dependable ~15a charging of ~24v to 92v batteries (you tune it/them via screws/trimpots for 4.15v average or whatever you want per cell for the group). I charge my 11.6ah at that rate, so about 1.5c.
They are way better; more reliable and cake to adjust compared to the bulk charger I bought from bmsbattery. Also they were about half the cost and a good namebrand vs noname and virtually no customer service/ support . . .

If bulk charging without a bms, a cell monitor/ battery medic on each string/pack can easily allow monitoring and any minor cell balancing that healthy cells hardly even require. Part of keeping healthy cells is not making them 'unhappy' which many have found consists of pushing towards their rated max discharges, whether peak or cont. 1/3 to 1/2 of those max ratings seem to keep the batteries happiest, as well as sub full charges and discharges.
Also, as mentioned, lipo is much more prone to physical damage but that's not hard to combat. I have mine in a top tube pannier, and used some squarish hard plastic storage bins of appropriate size to cut into a 'shell' for each side of the back. Also, firmly tape stuff together, including connections before covering or placing in a bag/backpack . . I would keep the backpack (when unsupervised) in a fridge, oven, fireplace, etc.

The battery choice looks fine at a decent price. Key (besides the least total # of packs and parallel connections) is try to get something popular/cheap that works for you so they're hopefully 'fresh' and for if/when you want additions or replacements. I just wouldn't plan on getting close to 200a (10c rating) for cont and maybe even burst discharge- at least in my limited exp.

 

[nutnspecial]

Also, shipping on those batts should be included in price. At least to US in my exp.

HK plays some games. I had a tab open for 5 min on those 20ah turnigys (and yes, they were 145/pc) and upon revisting to close the tab they had a popup with 'one time only deal' of about 123$ /pc. They also did the same the other day on another product I was looking at, so make sure you check for deals b4 purchasing (and just leave your browser/tab open on the product a little :| )

 

[gman1971]

Well, that disconnect/reconnect deal might apply if you have to do it twice a day; but since my trike is always plugged (why I built a solid state master ignition cutoff switch that I turn a key and it comes to life, no sparks). Therefore its not a big deal for me to disconnect my packs once or twice a week for charging. I also use a DB25 connector for balancing all the cells without having to fiddle with JST connectors and other nonsense. It takes me 1 extra minute to disconnect the 3 cells from the main series connector, plug each one to its charger and then plug the DB25 cable and voila... its charging. I don't run BMS, never will on anything I own... b/c those things suck IMO, literally, as they suck battery even when you aren't running the eBike... no thanks. I don't want my packs to be puffed or ruined due to BMS drain, which has happened btw... Its straight LiPos for me. Cell Doctor is decent but I prefer a good high power LiPo Charger/Balancer.


G.

Mine and some others have a different approach to charging naked lipo. Since highest risk is likely when charging, a charge close to recommended rate under supervision is best target. Also, most consider it very undesirable to disconnect and reconnect packs for each charge, so 'bulk' charging is key.

That can be done in conjunction with a bms to manage cell levels, or also naked. Many have no need for a bms, especially when they do supervised charging and manage levels themselves. I use three MW HRP 300w in series that allows for dependable ~15a charging of ~24v to 92v batteries (you tune it/them via screws/trimpots for 4.15v average or whatever you want per cell for the group). I charge my 11.6ah at that rate, so about 1.5c.
They are way better; more reliable and cake to adjust compared to the bulk charger I bought from bmsbattery. Also they were about half the cost and a good namebrand vs noname and virtually no customer service/ support . . .

If bulk charging without a bms, a cell monitor/ battery medic on each string/pack can easily allow monitoring and any minor cell balancing that healthy cells hardly even require. Part of keeping healthy cells is not making them 'unhappy' which many have found consists of pushing towards their rated max discharges, whether peak or cont. 1/3 to 1/2 of those max ratings seem to keep the batteries happiest, as well as sub full charges and discharges.
Also, as mentioned, lipo is much more prone to physical damage but that's not hard to combat. I have mine in a top tube pannier, and used some squarish hard plastic storage bins of appropriate size to cut into a 'shell' for each side of the back. Also, firmly tape stuff together, including connections before covering or placing in a bag/backpack . . I would keep the backpack (when unsupervised) in a fridge, oven, fireplace, etc.

The battery choice looks fine at a decent price. Key (besides the least total # of packs and parallel connections) is try to get something popular/cheap that works for you so they're hopefully 'fresh' and for if/when you want additions or replacements. I just wouldn't plan on getting close to 200a (10c rating) for cont and maybe even burst discharge- at least in my limited exp.

 

[RageNR]

The battery choice looks fine at a decent price. Key (besides the least total # of packs and parallel connections) is try to get something popular/cheap that works for you so they're hopefully 'fresh' and for if/when you want additions or replacements. I just wouldn't plan on getting close to 200a (10c rating) for cont and maybe even burst discharge- at least in my limited exp.

I agree with you on not using these at their 10C rating. Reading feedback from users of this brand of Lipo has led me to believe that running these at 5C should be fine.
Taking into account that these should never be pushed past 65amps at any time puts me wayyyy into the green safe area. Stress level on these packs should be negligible. (2C - 2.5C at the most)

If I read your comment above correctly, you are suggesting that using multiple smaller packs is more suitable? And I completely agree with that. That is actually what I looked at doing first.
6x of the Multistar 10,000mAh in a 18s2p configuration sounds great. Gives you more more options and is more configurable. I like the idea that I could ride with half the capacity if I choose to do so.
Oh, and I love redundancy!!! Especially on something that can leave you stranded miles from Home base.

My decision came down to price. I am familiar with the HK "wait-n-save" game. I kept my tab open on the 20Ah pack for a few days. I never once got the pop up for the "One Time Offer", which happens to be all the time. LoL
So I was under the impression that the Multistar packs did not qualify for the wait-n-save. Tried it on the other Multistar packs as well. No go.
Thank you for bringing it to my attention as I tried it once more in incognito mode on Chrome and in a few other browsers. Lowest I could get it to show was $127.68. You sure you got $123?

So for comparisons sake, here are the prices for possible setups:
Multistar 6S 20,000mAh - 3x in 18s1p (22.2v x3 = 66.6v) - $127.68 x3 = $383.04
Multistar 6S 10,000mAh - 6x in 18s2p (2x[22.2v x3] = 66.6v) - $89.67 x6 = $538.02
Multistar 6S 5,200mAh - 12x in 18S4p (4x[22.2v x3] = 66.6v) - $27.99 x12 = $335.88 ---------------------------- Amazing! $200 cheaper than 6x 10Ah packs.

This shows that the 12x 5,200mAh packs are the cheapest. Next cheapest is the 3x 20,000mAh paks. The 10,000mAh packs are just too expensive. I could not get a pop up for the lower one-time price.
Remaining question is, are the cost savings and increased configuration options of the 12 smaller packs better than the 3 larger packs? Package size and capacity should remain about the same. Mounting/carrying and charging complexity are the issues I could see become a problem. Are those trade-offs worth it?

 

[gman1971]

Smaller packs give you more options for placement, but its more wiring to do. If you are going to go that route you might as well buy the 4S packs and take them apart and build your own pack to whatever shape you want.

I've recently tried the Multistar 5200 LiHV on my former Cyclone eBike and those are very powerful; I would advice to get a pair of those for testing and evaluating. I am considering those over the regular Multistars for my 2nd trike... And 18S at 4.35 V per cell will become 78.5 V fully charged, which is still under the cap rating on the controller. Worth a look.

G.

The battery choice looks fine at a decent price. Key (besides the least total # of packs and parallel connections) is try to get something popular/cheap that works for you so they're hopefully 'fresh' and for if/when you want additions or replacements. I just wouldn't plan on getting close to 200a (10c rating) for cont and maybe even burst discharge- at least in my limited exp.

I agree with you on not using these at their 10C rating. Reading feedback from users of this brand of Lipo has led me to believe that running these at 5C should be fine.
Taking into account that these should never be pushed past 65amps at any time puts me wayyyy into the green safe area. Stress level on these packs should be negligible. (2C - 2.5C at the most)

If I read your comment above correctly, you are suggesting that using multiple smaller packs is more suitable? And I completely agree with that. That is actually what I looked at doing first.
6x of the Multistar 10,000mAh in a 18s2p configuration sounds great. Gives you more more options and is more configurable. I like the idea that I could ride with half the capacity if I choose to do so.
Oh, and I love redundancy!!! Especially on something that can leave you stranded miles from Home base.

My decision came down to price. I am familiar with the HK "wait-n-save" game. I kept my tab open on the 20Ah pack for a few days. I never once got the pop up for the "One Time Offer", which happens to be all the time. LoL
So I was under the impression that the Multistar packs did not qualify for the wait-n-save. Tried it on the other Multistar packs as well. No go.
Thank you for bringing it to my attention as I tried it once more in incognito mode on Chrome and in a few other browsers. Lowest I could get it to show was $127.68. You sure you got $123?

So for comparisons sake, here are the prices for possible setups:
Multistar 6S 20,000mAh - 3x in 18s1p (22.2v x3 = 66.6v) - $127.68 x3 = $383.04
Multistar 6S 10,000mAh - 6x in 18s2p (2x[22.2v x3] = 66.6v) - $89.67 x6 = $538.02
Multistar 6S 5,200mAh - 12x in 18S4p (4x[22.2v x3] = 66.6v) - $27.99 x12 = $335.88 ---------------------------- Amazing! $200 cheaper than 6x 10Ah packs.

This shows that the 12x 5,200mAh packs are the cheapest. Next cheapest is the 3x 20,000mAh paks. The 10,000mAh packs are just too expensive. I could not get a pop up for the lower one-time price.
Remaining question is, are the cost savings and increased configuration options of the 12 smaller packs better than the 3 larger packs? Package size and capacity should remain about the same. Mounting/carrying and charging complexity are the issues I could see become a problem. Are those trade-offs worth it?

 

[RageNR]

Smaller packs give you more options for placement, but its more wiring to do. If you are going to go that route you might as well buy the 4S packs and take them apart and build your own pack to whatever shape you want.

That is very true. And I have been thinking it over. If I buy 12 of the 5200 packs, I can just run them in 6x packs separately. You would already have the voltage from 3 in series, range from 3+3 paralleled, and have a 2nd built pack for double the range. I could even mount 6 on the bike, and keep 6 in the backpack. Lightweight decent range from those on the bike, and a range extending pack to carry around if desired.

Really not digging the charging complications with so many packs. But that is actually a good point to bring up. I read some comments about the Multistar 16Ah packs having 6s2p cells inside. That make me wonder if the 20Ah packs are 6s3p. If that is the case, doesn't that make the balancing of the pack become questionable since you have the one connector?
And if that truly is the way the 20Ah pack is built, then that make is no different than buying smaller packs. 20Ah could even be 6s4p cells.

I've recently tried the Multistar 5200 LiHV on my former Cyclone eBike and those are very powerful; I would advice to get a pair of those for testing and evaluating. I am considering those over the regular Multistars for my 2nd trike... And 18S at 4.35 V per cell will become 78.5 V fully charged, which is still under the cap rating on the controller. Worth a look.

Those sound great, but they are 11.6% larger at 2x the cost. At this time those are not ideal for my end-goal.
I'm just going to stick with the cheaper packs for now. 2 reasons: I am on an extremely tight budget, and I want this to be affordable for people I show it to.
Not many people around here will pay more than a $1000 for a bike. Not many want to even spend $500. And as a matter of fact, there are very few around this city that even know what an ebike is.
We are talking top 10 largest city here. I want this to look impressive, work well, be affordable, and most of all WOW people. Attempting to kickstart some interest in the ebike scene.
(and not the 300w putput crap the LBS or Walmart sells)

And for those reasons I want to keep the batt packs as they come. I could take them apart and build my own, but that will defeat what I am trying to accomplish. I want more people to get into ebikes once they see the benefits, low cost, and availability of parts. We have many many hobby shops around here, so for individuals that do not like to buy parts over the internet, they could source batts and other item at those locations at a higher price.

 

[gman1971]

For charing 18S use a DB25 connector. That will take care of all your balancing issues. I do it that way on my 18S trike and works great.

G.

Smaller packs give you more options for placement, but its more wiring to do. If you are going to go that route you might as well buy the 4S packs and take them apart and build your own pack to whatever shape you want.

That is very true. And I have been thinking it over. If I buy 12 of the 5200 packs, I can just run them in 6x packs separately. You would already have the voltage from 3 in series, range from 3+3 paralleled, and have a 2nd built pack for double the range. I could even mount 6 on the bike, and keep 6 in the backpack. Lightweight decent range from those on the bike, and a range extending pack to carry around if desired.

Really not digging the charging complications with so many packs. But that is actually a good point to bring up. I read some comments about the Multistar 16Ah packs having 6s2p cells inside. That make me wonder if the 20Ah packs are 6s3p. If that is the case, doesn't that make the balancing of the pack become questionable since you have the one connector?
And if that truly is the way the 20Ah pack is built, then that make is no different than buying smaller packs. 20Ah could even be 6s4p cells.

I've recently tried the Multistar 5200 LiHV on my former Cyclone eBike and those are very powerful; I would advice to get a pair of those for testing and evaluating. I am considering those over the regular Multistars for my 2nd trike... And 18S at 4.35 V per cell will become 78.5 V fully charged, which is still under the cap rating on the controller. Worth a look.

Those sound great, but they are 11.6% larger at 2x the cost. At this time those are not ideal for my end-goal.
I'm just going to stick with the cheaper packs for now. 2 reasons: I am on an extremely tight budget, and I want this to be affordable for people I show it to.
Not many people around here will pay more than a $1000 for a bike. Not many want to even spend $500. And as a matter of fact, there are very few around this city that even know what an ebike is.
We are talking top 10 largest city here. I want this to look impressive, work well, be affordable, and most of all WOW people. Attempting to kickstart some interest in the ebike scene.
(and not the 300w putput crap the LBS or Walmart sells)

And for those reasons I want to keep the batt packs as they come. I could take them apart and build my own, but that will defeat what I am trying to accomplish. I want more people to get into ebikes once they see the benefits, low cost, and availability of parts. We have many many hobby shops around here, so for individuals that do not like to buy parts over the internet, they could source batts and other item at those locations at a higher price.

 

[nutnspecial]

Hi Rage, nah I meant typically it's better to have larger format cells and thus less connections. If those larger packs have an acceptable form factor for you then I'd give them a shot.

If there's any chance you'd want to run half or split pack, consider the smaller format! I also suspect the 2p and/or 4p of 5ah cells VS the 1p of 20ah cells (check HK- lists 1p) might hold up to extra abuse (ie high draw)- considering that you parallel them also on the balance taps.
The drawback of course is all that extra wiring which is extra weight and liability.
If you thought you might not want the range VS battery weight, that'd be the time to try 2p of the 5ah multistars - and if they don't like 70a draws (70% max C) then go 3p. I'm thinking you don't need all that extra complication though.

For simplicity (to mount, use, charge, etc) just stay with the 20ah multistars. People have seemed to be really happy with the large format multistars.

 

[RageNR]

Thnaks gman, I will check those out.

@nutspectial - That was my bad. I misunderstood your point.
For simplicity, yes, the 20Ah packs are the best option. That is what drew me towards them.
But thinking on it now, if I buy the 20Ah packs, they are what they are. I can not configure them into a different shape or arrangement. Can't split them up, can't use only half the capacity if I choose.
Had considered 6 of the 10Ah packs, but the price is too high compared to the 20Ah and 5Ah packs.

Sorry to drone on about it. I am trying to put all my thoughts down here so my progress is logged. And maybe the rationale of my final decision can be of use to someone else having an equally difficult time with their ebike decisions.
Good chance I will be able to point back on this thread in the future and prove to myself just how dumb I can be.

 

[gman1971]

Nothing wrong with posting your knowledge here, but you could also throw a few of those over the Cyclone thread since you've chosen to use a Cyclone mid-drive.

I've made my fair share of long monologues, which according to some other E-S members were worthy of "my Facebook page" for my fans... and apparently those are what most ppl seem to enjoy reading, more so than the techno-mumbo-jumbo numbers and equations... So have a it!!

Post pictures when you start getting things together... and don't give up!

G.