Rain and the Hub Motor, shorted out again

[mvadventure]

Gentlemen: Again today, caught in an absolute downpour. Covered the throttle and cruise with a plastic bag, controller in another bag but five minutes later throttle quit in on position. Braking shut it down but it would come back on gradually until lt finally quit altogether. Found shelter for a few minutes until the worst appeard to be over and tried again and all of a sudden, key on, no power or very little power to the throttle the front wheel started SEVERE vibration, the watts up shorted out with a line across the middle and a drag on the wheel. Could not pedal even in first gear, had to push it a couple of miles to mother in laws and left it in their garage while wife came and got me.

The controller got a little warm but not too warm. I took it out of the bag and it comes on, at least the red light lights but I had to push the circuit breaker on it. (the red button is a circuit breaker isn't it?)

Lights come on at the throttle, watts up powers up, shows 52.4 volts but bottom line isn't working properly but no power to the front wheel. Any ideas? Will go by there tomorrow and if it isn't dried out will have to take everything apart just to get it home in the trunk of the car. Don't really want to do that. Crystalyte 4304, 48 volt 40 AM Crystalyte controller, keyed switch and LiPO4 batts. I'll take tools including a hair dryer with me.

Mike

 

[swade]

Curious to see how this plays out. Same thing happened to me a few weeks ago with the crystalyte 40amp 36 to 72 volt v2 controller. I haven't had time to debug it, but the symptoms are exactly the same as what madventure describes. Ebikes.ca has some good info on their troubleshooting section of the site that describes what can happen with rain.

 

[mvadventure]

Thanks for the lead to Justin's troubleshooting. I try to never ride in the rain but have gotten away with a little light rain a few times and should have had more sense. I knew it was going to get worse and simply figured that since I got away with it in the light rain I could get away with a heavier rain.

From his website I doubt if any permenant damage occured. If it works tomorrow I'll simply ride it home and take everything apart over the weekend. If it doesn't then I'll have to take the bike apart to get it in the trunk but that's not all that big a deal, a couple of extra hours is all.

However were I a dealer and had customers riding in the rain it would be a big deal. Upset customers, warranty repair and most likely the need to go get the bikes. A solution needs to be found as to the best of my knowledge it rains most everywhere except New Mexico and will probably rain there again in the future. A lot of my journeys take me 10 to 15 miles from home and this bike ain't gonna be pedaled that far by anyone least of all me.

Thanks again, Mike

 

[Anonymous]

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[Zoot Katz]

Thanks for the lead to Justin's troubleshooting.. . .

However were I a dealer and had customers riding in the rain it would be a big deal. Upset customers, warranty repair and most likely the need to go get the bikes. A solution needs to be found as to the best of my knowledge it rains most everywhere except New Mexico and will probably rain there again in the future. A lot of my journeys take me 10 to 15 miles from home and this bike ain't gonna be pedaled that far by anyone least of all me.

Thanks again, Mike

Water proofing is foremost on my list of items to prepare before I get things connected.
My plan is to disassemble the twist throttle and fill it with dielectric grease. I will also grease all the connectors.
With an Xtracycle there is a sheltered area under the deck where my controller is mounted. I'm going to open that up, after I get a diamond bit screwdriver to reduce the risk of cam-out to the heads because I heard those screws are made from Chinese cheese, and apply a conformal coating to the pc board. I'll hot-glue around the wires and shroud the whole works with neoprene or plastic. At the first sign of trouble that sucker's going in a lipped project box.
The motor itself I'm guessing there's a pcb or two in there that may or may not have been waterproofed.
When the batteries get here I'll be looking at ways to waterproof the carrier and all connections.

Justin held a workshop here (Vancouver, BC Canada, a temperate costal rain forest climate) for people wanting to assemble their e-bikes. It was well attended but I couldn't make it. An email suggesting a waterproofing workshop for locals got the response that his time would be better spent doing such a workshop in China. I couldn't argue with that.

BTW, The Renaissance Bicycle Company, aka <ebikes.ca>, is the bicycle shop closest to my home. Lucky me!

 

[Lock]

Sorry to hear about this trouble mvadventure

Ebikes.ca has some good info on their troubleshooting section of the site that describes what can happen with rain.

I guess that is here:
http://ebikes.ca/troubleshooting.shtml

Kinda disturbing to read the top/first bit about water in hubs... Is this an Achilles Heel for all hubs?
I drive a lot in inches of salt water as winter road slush and melt.
tks
Lock

 

[Zoot Katz]

Sorry to hear about this trouble mvadventure

Ebikes.ca has some good info on their troubleshooting section of the site that describes what can happen with rain.

I guess that is here:
http://ebikes.ca/troubleshooting.shtml

Kinda disturbing to read the top/first bit about water in hubs... Is this an Achilles Heel for all hubs?
I drive a lot in inches of salt water as winter road slush and melt.
tks
Lock

Another detail to which I'd like to attend is pulling the hub motor side covers and sealing them with some gasket goop kind of stuff
Any recommendations?

 

[fechter]

A brushless hub motor should be just about submergible. If the hall sensor wires are sealed, there's no reason one wouldn't work under water.

Same goes for throttles. Hall sensors are inherently waterproof execpt for the wires. If the short section of exposed leadwires coming out of the sensor are sealed with (epoxy, grease, nail polish, hot melt, silicone, whatever) they also should work under water.

Controllers are another story. Most of them are not designed for rain exposure.

Anytime you have anything electronic malfunctions due to moisture, disconnect the battery as soon as possible. Once the battery is disconnected, no more damage will be done. An unpowered circuit board can be dunked in water and as long as it is completely dried out before restoring power, there is little chance of damage.

When water gets into a circuit, all kinds of unpredictable paths can develop and parts can easily be destroyed.
Not only that, but just having voltage present on a piece of wet metal can cause accelerated corrosion, sort of like electroplating in reverse. Dry everything as much as possible first.

 

[Zoot Katz]

A brushless hub motor should be just about submergible. If the hall sensor wires are sealed, there's no reason one wouldn't work under water.

Same goes for throttles. Hall sensors are inherently waterproof execpt for the wires. If the short section of exposed leadwires coming out of the sensor are sealed with (epoxy, grease, nail polish, hot melt, silicone, whatever) they also should work under water.

Controllers are another story. Most of them are not designed for rain exposure.

Anytime you have anything electronic malfunctions due to moisture, disconnect the battery as soon as possible. Once the battery is disconnected, no more damage will be done. An unpowered circuit board can be dunked in water and as long as it is completely dried out before restoring power, there is little chance of damage.

When water gets into a circuit, all kinds of unpredictable paths can develop and parts can easily be destroyed.
Not only that, but just having voltage present on a piece of wet metal can cause accelerated corrosion, sort of like electroplating in reverse. Dry everything as much as possible first.

With pure water, maybe. Most the the slop in the roadside world is heavily mineralised, oil contaminated and carrying particulate matter. Mildew can become a problem in some climates. Snow, in its present form, barely passes for frozen H2O. After it's been salted riding is like going for a corrosive diesel flavoured slurpie bath.*

I've always heard it's better to let electronic stuff dry to ambient humidity and temperature. IOW, don't heat it but do improve natural air circulation.

The fact remains, I don't want my Xtracycle/Xlyte 5304 to be just a "fair weather" ride.
Water and electricity makes me nervous. I can't swim and haven't a clue how electrons get where you want them. But, I'm liking the idea of a kill switch between the batteries and controller.

*The fixed wheel polo bike gets studs for those, rare here, winter conditions. Eliminate complications. Last winter I did need to use the Xtracycle in horrible conditions and loved every bit of it. Maintaining the basic bike's bomb squad reliability is of my utmost concern.

Being without actual e-experience I'm probably just worrying too much. A belt and braces sort of approach, if you will.

 

[dogman dan]

Here in New Mexico, it rained three inches last week, so we do get rain. For one week a year. Funny how guilty I still felt driving the car when it was raining cats and dogs. I think there is a big difference between riding in rain, and riding through a puddle. Real rain is gonna drip down the forks and all into the axle, but hitting a puddle is likely to sling off and leave the hub dry.

 

[mvadventure]

Well.....I went by my mother-in-laws this afternoon to check on the bike. Switch powered up the throttle, the red light on the controller so I picked up the front end and hit the throttle. After a couple of quick pushes on the thumb throttle the power lights on it went out and the controller shut down. Turning the key did not turn the controller back on again.

Since my ride had to get home I'll go back tomorrow and take the cover off the controller but it's just as likely the problem is in the motor. Likely I'll have to take the bike apart which means removing the wheels, handlebar, batteries, etc. to get it in the trunk of our car. Hopefully the rain didn't fry anything a good drying out won't cure. In the meantime I'll start googling a new controller.

Shit.

Mike

 

[Anonymous]

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[Zoot Katz]

With pure water, maybe.

I had some moron literally pour coffee into a laptop, in the keyboard area, accidentally (fortunately company owned not mine). Immediately powered off, pulled battery, opened case to left dry, and it worked fine after two days drying out. Most circuit boards can handle water for a brief period, its the short circuits that kill. The problem is, we tend to not even know about the water, until something fails, because we're riding. That place on the xtracycle under the snapdeck, seemingly ideal for controller, is also a splash point, so if controller is there, it needs a splash cover, also wires should not angle down to controller under there, they need to go up to controller. Mine is in freeloader bag currently no problems in heavy rain (only cycle analyst has problem so far, gets foggy inside), I plan to put the controller under snapdeck but not without splash cover. And cycle analyst will be inserted into waterproof enclosure as soon as I can find an appropriate box.

I hope it was plain black coffee. I'd hate to think what a double frappe mocha soy latte with a twist of lemon would smell like after a week or two.
Be thankful it wasn't cat piss.

This bike runs fenders year round. Before locating the controller there I examined the fender and underside of the deck and found no telltale signs of water spotting. I've spanned the Vee-Racks with two pieces of half-inch steel tube attached with sets of P-clips. The controller is mounted to those tubes at about a 45 degree angle. The rear brake could potentially deflect spray to the back side of the controller so I'm adding a piece of aluminium sheet behind it as a shield. The button and wires are presently situated at the top. The cable entries will be sealed with hot glue. There's just enough space between the bottom of the deck and controller to access the button. Justin looked at the installation, thought it was neat and suggested a plastic flap for the times it's really pissing down. I'm thinking a plastic jug of the right proportions and size could be cut and velcro over the controller. I just gotta find one the right colour.
Or if I splurge and buy some proper glue I could make a neoprene bootie for it.

 

[Anonymous]

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[Zoot Katz]

Very interesting, please show some pics. This xtracycle frame has lots of potential. I want to use the mount points for wide loaders to make custom battery frame down low.
I'm thinking about an air scoop in the front that pushes air up into battery box, with fan on the tail end exhausting.

Air scoops here would be funnelling in lots of moisture. Plastic downspout material looks like it might hold batteries and it can be glued.

My two major criteria are that the bike balances around the "gravity assist juju" and that it be damned near submersible. The shortest route to buyer's remorse is having a bike that doesn't work. For that I'll be situating the batteries on the bike's frame (tricky with a mixte) and taking care of details before the batteries get here.

One thing I'm studiously avoiding is cutting into the Xtracycle's payload capacity by making it tail heavy with batteries.
It's with the cargo bikes that I think electric assist makes the most sense. Having already done over 50 MPH on a bicycle and 130 on a Norton 750, this bike will be fine if I can do 20 KmH uphill with a load and not too much pain.

 

[Anonymous]

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[Zoot Katz]

A scoop directing upwards isn't going to get rain if designed properly, but air because it seems "middle" batteries take more of a beating due to temp.
Regarding your controller, it would be better flipped 180 degrees with cables running down.

One of my mock-up 36V packs has the batteries in sticks two wide to provide adequate cooling. I'll not be able to achieve that with two 24V packs though I think 48V is the better option considering the bike's intended use.

By rotating the controller the "open" end will be more exposed. As it sits now it's well protected. The finish on the underside of the deck is as new. It doesn't get wet under there so I don't see how water is going to get in since all the exposed parts of the cables will be dipping down before entering the controller.

 

[lawsonuw]

I think condensation is another issue to look out for. Especially since the components on an e-bike go through a lot of thermal cycles. The bad thing about the thermal cycling is that it makes the air inside the components expand and contract. This is bad because it's a way to bring new air and moisture inside a component. The new moisture can then condense and collect in a low spot. I think that unless e-bike components can be sealed up air tight, a drain hole will be needed so that the components will dry out properly once brought inside.

Marty

 

[Lock]

The bad thing about the thermal cycling is that it makes the air inside the components expand and contract. This is bad because it's a way to bring new air and moisture inside a component. The new moisture can then condense and collect in a low spot. I think that unless e-bike components can be sealed up air tight, a drain hole will be needed so that the components will dry out properly once brought inside.
Marty

Ya might consider a dry controller that's sealed but instead of a *drain* hole a "bladder" that covers and seals the hole but will expand/contract as the air in the case expands and contracts.
tks
Lock

 

[docnjoj]

Hey Zoot! I just destroyed my wonderful Toshiba laptop with a cup of coffee! I almost got it shut off and the battery pulled! Damn! 500 bucks down the drain! Hopefully, I can salvage the hard drive! Washed the motherboardafter removing the battery, but it was too late! By the way! U might want to point those controller wires face down and put loops on them and seal/cover the other side of the controller! Yeah!!! Salt or other electrolytes suck!!!!!!!! So does coffee!!!
otherDoc