Seeking DD motor, wanting selection and opinion

[bowlofsalad]

Hello,

I have a 52v20ah battery, I am planning to drill holes and spray with boeshield t-9(or similar). I pedal plenty, I don't really want to go faster than 30mph, I have no mountains to climb and the hills aren't much in most of my rides and I am no hot rodder. On occasion, I may carry a trailer with some things on it, but I intend to use a CAv3 with a temperature probe in the motor, pedal more than I might otherwise and avoid any hills or creating excessive heat if I can avoid it.

Currently, it seems a crystalyte 3540 is my only option or best. I am looking for a motor for reliability, quality and efficiency.

Is a 3540 the best option there is (for me) or are there other direct drive hubs to consider? I am hoping to find something made in the USA or at least some place that doesn't involve slave labor or wage slaves or whatever you want to call it. Thanks for reading! Sorry for being a dumbass.

 

[Samd]

Gday 'Salad, DD only? Is there a reason?

Also, what size wheels?

 

[wesnewell]

Are you just looking for a motor, or a complete kit, or motor with wheel? Be more specific.

 

[bowlofsalad]

Gday 'Salad, DD only? Is there a reason?

Also, what size wheels?

Hello Samd, thanks for responding.

28", http://www.schwalbetires.com/bike_tires/road_tires/big_apple I am probably going to be using schwalbe big apples or big apple plus until it gets icy.

I like the ideas of a direct drive hub, regenerative braking offers at least the added benefit of a reliable method of braking. Some argue that direct drive hubs are more reliable than other styles of ebike propulsion, I don't really know for certain as I am basically a newbie with no experience in anything other than direct drive hubs. If you think another style is more reliable, I am be open to the subject.

@wesnewell After writing a ridiculously long response to your question, I've decided to just say I am open to all options. I hope this makes sense, I don't want to force you to read for 15 minutes to comprehend my blabbering non-sense. Thanks!

 

[Brentis]

What's wrong with the Mxus DD you have from em3ev now? Wrong winding? Which winding/rpm did you get?
With your battery combo you should have no problem hitting 30mph with a proper controller.
Otherwise you will have to volt up.
How hilly are you? % , degrees. area of your country, etc
Unless you are climbing pikes peak or 300lbs'er you shouldn't need to cool your hub.

 

[bowlofsalad]

What's wrong with the Mxus DD you have from em3ev now? Wrong winding? Which winding/rpm did you get?
With your battery combo you should have no problem hitting 30mph with a proper controller.
Otherwise you will have to volt up.
How hilly are you? % , degrees. area of your country, etc
Unless you are climbing pikes peak or 300lbs'er you shouldn't need to cool your hub.

I purchased their slowest winding, I am satisfied with the hub and it's speed, I don't know the % or degrees of the hills nearby, but the hills seem acceptable I suspect, there isn't much to what I would call extreme around me concerning inclines. At 52v, the top speed with a 3540 is brutally fast, I don't need to go very fast, I didn't make that clear. The builds I use are based around recumbents.

I am making a second ebike, and not long after, a third. I am hoping to base these builds around a reliable direct drive hub motor.

The goal for ventilation seems to serve several purposes in my mind. The first being that a cooler motor runs more efficiently, to spend the short amount of time, energy, or seemingly low cost to vent a motor to improve efficiency seems silly to pass up in my mind, but I am a bit obsessive over such details. Second, the water issue seems inescapable over time, so venting seems to improve reliability. Someone, I don't recall who, suggested the idea of putting a small amount of oil in a direct drive hub motor instead of drilling and spraying. I haven't really read much about the idea beyond doing this for geared motors, both sound good, I don't know what is best. All I know is reliability is paramount for myself and considering preventing rust as an afterthought seems unwise. Ebike.ca offers drilling and spraying so it would be done right off the bat through them. There was a video I saw of Justin of Ebike.ca talking about how difficult it was to perfectly seal a motor and that at least a little moisture would be consistently getting in. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gwlbAJLzI_w Here is a link to it. So it seems like a really excellent idea to either vent and spray or toss a pleasant level of oil inside. I lean more towards the drill holes idea but I might be unable to easily choose myself. Another added benefit is, ideas of over heating the hub, while unlikely in my imagination, are cut down drastically through ventilation. The only possibility I have imagined for over heating is carrying things on a trailer.

 

[dogman dan]

For speeds under 30 mph, I don't see much need to go to motors much different from the 9c type.

The 2807/ 9x7 winding will get you about 27 mph on that voltage. It works fine for normal use. I do prefer the slower windings though, for steep hills, heavy cargo, or riding in places infested with stop signs and lights. In normal use, you won't overheat them enough to impair efficiency.

Some have likes the 8x8 winding, just about 25mph speed on 48v, and slightly better on the starts.

 

[wesnewell]

Select 48V 1000W.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Rear-Wheel-Electric-Bicycle-Conversion-Kit-24V-36V-48V-250W-500W-700W-800W-1000W-/290754592384

 

[bowlofsalad]

For speeds under 30 mph, I don't see much need to go to motors much different from the 9c type.

The 2807/ 9x7 winding will get you about 27 mph on that voltage. It works fine for normal use. I do prefer the slower windings though, for steep hills, heavy cargo, or riding in places infested with stop signs and lights. In normal use, you won't overheat them enough to impair efficiency.

Some have likes the 8x8 winding, just about 25mph speed on 48v, and slightly better on the starts.

I was strongly considering buying a 2807 (originally a 2808) from ebike.ca. That was up until ebike.ca's statement discontinuance of carrying 9c motors. "We're completely moving away from the 9C systems as we've found that their products are continuing to decline in quality." So, with that, I felt that it might be better consider other motors. I am sure their statement in 9c motors is somewhat general, I don't know their statement is a sure thing to say all their motors are trash. All I can say for sure is longevity and reliability are important.

 

[chilledoutuk]

hmm i didn't know justin thought the quality of 9C motors had declined i thought he just didn't like the cheap wheels and spokes they used in there wheel builds.

truthfully though the standard 9C design in my opinion is very reliable when not running at too high a power level.

Its pretty much accepted that the crystalite design of wire entry through a slot in the axel is much less reliable than the 9C design of a hollow axel with the wire going in the end.

I got my 6x10 9C kit in 2011 and its still going great and done many jorneys on very bumpy british roads.

I would however just get the q11 from Bmsbattery as its pretty much the same type of motor with the offset hub to alleviate the need for dishing but with the option of coming with a sine wave controller which also has a cheap LCD display available as well which is cool.

 

[spinningmagnets]

You mention recumbents, so I'll assume you don't need large diameter wheels. I have some ideas gathered from reading, which I haven't personally tried yet. The "reliable set-up" thread keeps popping up about twice a year. JMHO/YMMV.

Sensorless controller: no problems with halls anymore.

6-FET/30A acceptable? get the 12-FET, it will run cooler at 30A than a 6-FET with the heat spread across twice as many FETs

Moped tire: no more rear flats, moped tires are cheap, Pirelli's are popular

Direct Drive hub: can take more heat than a geared hub, no gears or clutch to fail. Regen braking is a bonus.

20-inch wheel: allows modest speeds with higher voltages using available kVs (Crystalyte HT?), high volts in 22-inch dia moped tire= climbs VERY well.

Oil-cooling: fill interior 1/3rd with ATF after sealing leakpoints, whatever heat the motor gets, spread it from the stator to the large aluminum sideplates.

Temp sensor: they cost a buck, $1...as long as you have the motor apart, just install it. You can hook up a read-out later...or not, after all it's just $1...

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=53033#p788934

I strongly recommend a Crystalyte 3525 at 72 or 100v. I can't get mine to overheat on hills.

 

[iperov]

I seeking DD motor which need no additional varnish inner wires , as conhismotor.com motor, inner wires became rattle after light downhill usage

 

[bowlofsalad]

You mention recumbents, so I'll assume you don't need large diameter wheels. I have some ideas gathered from reading, which I haven't personally tried yet. The "reliable set-up" thread keeps popping up about twice a year. JMHO/YMMV.

Sensorless controller: no problems with halls anymore.

6-FET/30A acceptable? get the 12-FET, it will run cooler at 30A than a 6-FET with the heat spread across twice as many FETs

Moped tire: no more rear flats, moped tires are cheap, Pirelli's are popular

Direct Drive hub: can take more heat than a geared hub, no gears or clutch to fail. Regen braking is a bonus.

20-inch wheel: allows modest speeds with higher voltages using available kVs (Crystalyte HT?), high volts in 22-inch dia moped tire= climbs VERY well.

Oil-cooling: fill interior 1/3rd with ATF after sealing leakpoints, whatever heat the motor gets, spread it from the stator to the large aluminum sideplates.

Temp sensor: they cost a buck, $1...as long as you have the motor apart, just install it. You can hook up a read-out later...or not, after all it's just $1...

I've been considering 6 vs 12fet for this reason, I often lean more towards 12fet, it doesn't cost a ton more. In addition to using a 12fet controller, I have plans to accentuate cooling, I have a few avenues to choose from, possibly a combination of such ideas, but overall I think that the controller will run very cool as well.

Something I've considered for running oil was gluing heatsinks to the walls of the hub, I don't know how great the flat surface of a hub motor would dissipate heat, but I am sure a few small finned blocks would probably make a difference.

After doing a lot of back and forth thinking and playing with the simulator, a smaller wheel seems like a sure fire way to have better efficiency for hill climbing. Something I am trying to work out is how to attain an equal air volume with a 20" wheel (wider tires, but how much wider) to a 28" wheel. The reasoning behind a 28" wheel for myself relates entirely to comfort. The purpose of a large fat biycle tire is that it creates both lower rolling resistance and most cushion. https://secure.flickr.com/photos/mrjoeball/4525757653/ This short series of pictures seems exceptionally interesting. I wonder what the rolling resistance of a moped/motorcyle tire is. I've not really considered a 20" wheel for my designs, so that is something I'd need to look into.

 

[lbz5mc12]

For dissipation of heat on the hub motor, has anyone tried attaching round heat sinks to the sides of the hub motor to pull off and dissipate the heat? Basically flat round metal plates on either side of the hub to absorb the heat and the spinning of the wheel should help cool the plates off. Even with disk brakes and such there should be enough room to squeeze something in there. It just sounds simpler then drilling holes or liquid cooling. You'd think manufacturers would build in some kind of heat sinks or ventilation, right? I mean I would.

 

[bowlofsalad]

For dissipation of heat on the hub motor, has anyone tried attaching round heat sinks to the sides of the hub motor to pull off and dissipate the heat? Basically flat round metal plates on either side of the hub to absorb the heat and the spinning of the wheel should help cool the plates off. Even with disk brakes and such there should be enough room to squeeze something in there. It just sounds simpler then drilling holes or liquid cooling. You'd think manufacturers would build in some kind of heat sinks or ventilation, right? I mean I would.

Curiously, I mentioned precisely this in the post just above yours. I suggested this idea in the thread about oil cooling geared hubs. Someone simply said 'it works'. Balancing the hub with the heatsinks placed on it seems like a potential issue, if the heatsinks weren't placed properly they could cause wobbly or vibration of some sort. Clearance may also be another issue, you mentioned this but this is a really relative concept.

 

[parajared]

If you want to mod a motor you should be warned about Crystalyte H. Mine was a royal pain in the rear to open and close back up, everything is just super tight in there. My crystalyte H also burnt up unexpectedly a few months ago, so I can't vouch for them being reliable either.

Both of my 9C motors (ebikes.ca and methtek.com) have taken pretty serious abuse and hung in just fine. My Crystalyte died under much less stress. 9c motors can't take quite as much continuous current as crystalyte before reaching 110c and they make a mild hum when under power too, but my wife and I think they are awesome, and the price is nice too (they are on sale for $100 at ebikes.ca right now by the way)
My MXUS 500w from em3ev has been good so far too. I have been riding a MXUS to work and back all year. It acts exactly like a 9c, and even has the "9C hum".
My Magic pie 2 from goldenmotor.ca was pretty good, but the person who set up the spokes on mine did a lousy job. I tried to true the wheel myself, but had troubles down the road, I should have just brought it in to a shop with an actual trueing stand. Magic pies are neat because they are quieter than 9c, and even though they overheat faster they shed heat off pretty quick too. I still don't think they are as good of a buy as a MXUS or 9c however.

E-bikekit.com sells USA made motors. My e-bikekit.com motor and controller sucked pretty bad.

I tried moped tires and didn't like them; too heavy too draggy, I prefer Mr. Toughy tire liners or ghetto tubeless tire mod on bicycle tires.

 

[RICK]

if you are willing to set up a 9c they are fine, that means a good rim, spokes, bearings, boeshield. Maybe $100 and a day, after purchase of the motor. They are then rock-solid, quiet, easily capable of 30 mph duty. That kind of takes out of the "plug and play" category though. No experience with but it sounds like the MXUS motors are similar.

 

[bowlofsalad]

@parajared Were you using the temperature probe with your crystalyte h series? How do you meant burnt up? I've been interested in tubeless tires for a while new, but I haven't been very sure about how to dive into the idea, what rim and rub are you using with this ghetto tubeless tire mod? Can you elaborate upon your experience E-bikekit.com's motors? Their motor looks identical to 9c/mxus.

@RICK I intend to do all what you mentioned (assuming I cannot have it done for me or it isn't done already) except bearings. Can you elaborate on bearings? Are you saying you feel the stock bearings should be replaced?

 

[wesnewell]

I seeking DD motor which need no additional varnish inner wires , as conhismotor.com motor, inner wires became rattle after light downhill usage

What wires are you talking about? The wires and windings never move inside the hub. Are you saying the windings weren't wrapped tight enough? Sorry, I just don't understand.

 

[iperov]

just my conhis motor became produce little 400ms noise on some % accelerate

 

[RICK]

bowls-

the stock bearings have noticeable play, if you're in there already might as well replace them, can get from mcmaster for 10-15$
there was a thread on refurbing corroded 9c motors maybe two year ago by kingfisher ? lots of good info

I guess I should come clean and say that I did not replace bearings or boeshield my own motor, still ok on 4th season and 6000 miles - maybe i could takes hands off the bars with good bearings though(ha).. Did all that crap for a build for a friend tho, not really hard, a good hydraulic press is handy, and be aware that the internal clearance on the disk side is really small so be careful not to disturb the windings too much.

you will definitely need to lace your own rim, and opening up the motor during the build is a great way to get some confidence if/when you need to replace the halls!

 

[parajared]

@parajared Were you using the temperature probe with your crystalyte h series? How do you meant burnt up? I've been interested in tubeless tires for a while new, but I haven't been very sure about how to dive into the idea, what rim and rub are you using with this ghetto tubeless tire mod? Can you elaborate upon your experience E-bikekit.com's motors? Their motor looks identical to 9c/mxus.

I use TG3 temperature probes on all my builds.

My crystalite fried when I was cruising around the neighborhood, I wasn't pushing it hard or racing or anything. My motor started intermittently jittering every 10 minutes or so (for a second or two). The temp gauge started to rapidly rise from 80 celcius to 110c. Once the motor hit 115c the motor stopped working and all throttle inputs solely resulted in only motor jittering. The motor smelled of smoke (I had a drilled side cover).
When I got home I opened the motor cover and found that a bearing had ground down the phase wires and shorted two of them together. I soldered on new phase wires added a piece of plastic as a barrier to the wires, put everything back together again and everything was working great for about 30 seconds then went back into jitter mode and smelled of smoke again. I tore the motor down again and found a black char mark on one of the copper wires (windings I think they are called?).
I contacted Justin from ebikes.ca and we tried a number of things to get the motor working again, but ended up not having any luck. I gave up on the motor and bought a MXUS.

Ghetto tubeless mod has been successful on all three of my 20" non UST trike wheels as well as my UST 26" x2.4 wide knobby off-road tires. So far I have only reached failure state when I wear tires down to paper thin. Nails and glass and stuff are fine. Ghetto tubeless is pretty easy, almost as easy as putting in a new tire. I couldn't get the tape method to work, but using an inter tube a size too small method has worked great for me.

My gripe with ebikekit.com comes from their gear motor and controller. My controller just stopped working all together after about two months worth of use. I didn't press the issue and just bought another controller. I felt the gears in the motor wore out pretty darn fast and I thought it ridiculous that you cannot open a side cover on their motor to put new gears in. Justin at ebikekit.com offered to replace the gears if I send the motor in for $150. I felt that that was too much because with shipping and everything I might as well just buy a new motor.

 

[bowlofsalad]

We live in disposable times, bleh.

@Rick Eep, I lack a hydraulic press. I tried to find some videos of people replacing bearings and such, no success.

@Parajared "a bearing had ground down the phase wires" That sounds incredible, I am having trouble imagining this. I feel like it's pretty clear after spending some time reading that all ebike hub motors seem to have plenty of corners cut concerning their production. Are you using some kind of tape method or something with a size or two smaller inner tube? Are you using stans sealant?

 

[parajared]

In 9c and MXUS hubs the phase wires go down a hole in the middle of the shaft so they are not at risk of getting chewed. In Crystalyte and magic pie the shaft is cut into a U shape and the wires go down the "trough". Magic pie uses little metal clips to hold the phase wires away from the bearing, but Crystalyte's setup is a flimsy piece of plastic. Mine failed and seemingly ruined my motor. I actually am not sure how the windings got fried, it seems to me that even if the phase wires were arcing together it wouldn't cause any damage, but the inside of my motor says differently.

Tape method hasn't been reliable for me; a few hundred miles later sealant starts leaking out the spoke holes. Small intertube method has worked best with Stans no-tube. Local bike shops carry the sealant, but Amazon.com and Ebay should be good sources too.

 

[davec]

the 9c's work well- but def upgrade everything
only thing is to keep them under 1kw- i think 1kw is ok peak - not sure how fast exactly the 9c's heat up under 1kw continous
but if you need that im guessing a hs35 might suite better but based on review above guess not