Tesla model D?

[macribs]

So if Tesla has hit a milestone with batteries you think they or panasonic will drizzle those batteries around so they will be available for other users as well, or you think they will keep em all for them self? I am sure if they have made improvements we will see that on what is available, and we will also see it on the price tag as I am sure people would pay even more for a higher C rating. And if Panasonic can sell those cells at a premium now as there is no other brands that have the same wouldn't it make sense to do just that?

And if high C rated 18650 cells becomes widely available that might have an impact on the pricing of hobby kings batteries as well. WE might see even lower price from hobbyking.

Lets hope those new batteries hit the street sooner rather then later.

 

[Hillhater]

The most recent delivered batch of p85's have been something huge like 0.3-0.5sec faster in the quarter mile than the previous versions could do it. Higher trap speeds as well.

The performance of first gen p85's was a matter of battery limits both in temp and voltage sag.

The battery didn't get any higher capacity, yet now they are able to draw much much more power from it.

What do those clues tell you?

Could be better cells....but it might also just be a software tweek ? ( traction control / current limits etc)
Why would Tesla not want to make the most of any performance improvement ?...especially something as "Product Central" as the battery performance.?.....it's a key selling point.

 

[dnmun]

is Tesla obligated to allow panasonic to sell battery cells made according to Tesla's formulations of the secret sauce?

i would assume that it is carefully controlled and very proprietary.

 

[tomjasz]

is Tesla obligated to allow panasonic to sell battery cells made according to Tesla's formulations of the secret sauce?

i would assume that it is carefully controlled and very proprietary.

Isn't the buzz the fact that the secrets are now open source?

 

[Hillhater]

...Isn't the buzz the fact that the secrets are now open source?

not necessarily ... their Patents are "open source",.. but if they are like many organizations they simply wont patent some of their best developments, for the very reason that if they do, the information is public anyway and useful to anyone who doesn't observe patent law (china ?)
So the most valuable information is kept private until the products are in production and selling giving the developer a market "head start" until competitors can reverse engineer and try to copy the product.

 

[dnmun]

from what the professor was saying they may put in a mixture of additives and some of them could be decoys. so reverse engineering without this kinda insight on the thermodynamics of these reactions that create the contaminants would require decades of research to isolate. i think that is why he hired that grad student of the professors to be his lab manager. big step for a young kid so it may indicate how valuable a tool this microcalorimetry analysis has proven to be. elon recognizes the potential in that research.

 

[liveforphysics]

So if Tesla has hit a milestone with batteries you think they or panasonic will drizzle those batteries around so they will be available for other users as well, or you think they will keep em all for them self? I am sure if they have made improvements we will see that on what is available, and we will also see it on the price tag as I am sure people would pay even more for a higher C rating. And if Panasonic can sell those cells at a premium now as there is no other brands that have the same wouldn't it make sense to do just that?

And if high C rated 18650 cells becomes widely available that might have an impact on the pricing of hobby kings batteries as well. WE might see even lower price from hobbyking.

Lets hope those new batteries hit the street sooner rather then later.

If tesla production rates are currently limited only by how many cells Panasonic can deliver, and if Panasonic already can't meet demand for Teslas cell, what motivation would they have to attempt to sell it elsewhere?

 

[liveforphysics]

The most recent delivered batch of p85's have been something huge like 0.3-0.5sec faster in the quarter mile than the previous versions could do it. Higher trap speeds as well.

The performance of first gen p85's was a matter of battery limits both in temp and voltage sag.

The battery didn't get any higher capacity, yet now they are able to draw much much more power from it.

What do those clues tell you?

Could be better cells....but it might also just be a software tweek ? ( traction control / current limits etc)
Why would Tesla not want to make the most of any performance improvement ?...especially something as "Product Central" as the battery performance.?.....it's a key selling point.

Perhaps it to negatively impact the value of previous vehicles made with earlier generation cells.

 

[Hillhater]

But it could also open up an "upgrade" sales opportunity , to sell existing customers the 470bhp drive package of battery pack and mods ?
And do we know what they have done to up the max speed by 35mph ?
..is it just a revised rpm limit or a ratio change ?

from what the professor was saying they may put in a mixture of additives and some of them could be decoys..

.. do you have a Link for that ??

 

[liveforphysics]

But it could also open up an "upgrade" sales opportunity , to sell existing customers the 470bhp drive package of battery pack and mods ?
And do we know what they have done to up the max speed by 35mph ?
..is it just a revised rpm limit or a ratio change ?

Just a taller gear ratio would give them a higher top speed and improved cruise efficiency both.

 

[7circle]

Going AWD effects lots of things..
Just considering the RWD..
If they have proven the trio of bat / drive / motor and can push more current and volts from the bat due to lower resistance, that can push the motor further into field weakening to get more RPMs with more power.

So many factors effecting "top speed" _rating_

Here's a pic link to a dyno curve showing the effect of field weakening power ramp down from 75mph to 135mph
With flat power from battery limit from 55mph to 75mph.

This shows 220hp at 130mph.
A ratio change, as LFP points to, could stretch the curve left. Providing more power at same speed.
But less low rpm torque.
If top speed is limited by Aero drag .. the dyno test won't show it up..
So 135mph would be software limit.
Protects something... perhaps the power drive module... or just the drive train

Or their insurance costs...

Would be interesting to check a flat road run to see throttle response ...
The display would show kW/HP when cruising at 130mph.

Will be intersting to compare the AWD to RWD for cruising power demand... even at 65MPH.

So the AWD will spread the torque to front and drastically reduce torque on rear motor for same speed.
So two motors is double the copper area, half the current losses.
So imagine the RWD with twice the size motor.
Lower Phase resistance allows more headroom for the Bus/battery voltage to make more RPM's for constant power from battery say up to 85mph.
And now there is more current available for field weakening in each motor as the torque component is reduced.
Allowing more overall power to wheels from battery.

 

[liveforphysics]

7circle. Learn an improved delusion of how a motor functions.

The phase resistance isn't what controls current or enables higher speeds etc.

 

[7circle]

oh oo ... Phase inductance ... will see less phase current..
I should have written Impedance not resistance.
This voltage vector is much larger than copper loss resistance.
2.pi.f.L x I(f)

and your "illuding" to the imaginary was contorting.
The imaginary can have a larger influence than the real.

Something has got to dampen those twitches.
Henry and Weber will be turning in their graves.

 

[liveforphysics]

I say delusion of how a motor works because it's the best anyone has.

Keep in mind, nobody has a clue what or how anything related to electro-magnetism functions.

Humans don't understand much, the most wise proudly know nothing.

Humans are masters of observing related effects and assigning them names and creating some delusional model why they observe the relationships between observed effects. This is often mistaken for understanding, though they are fundamentally unrelated.

 

[7circle]

So Steinmetz Equivalent circuit could be replaced with a better _delusion_

>> Interesting character Steinmetz.

Here's his Induction motor per phase equivalent circuit. (Where X is the 2.pi.f.L and s is the slip ... etc ..)

Which is derived from the Air Gap to Rotor transformer model.
This site has some interesting explanations.. and figures http://www.ene.ttu.ee/elektriajamid/teadus/artiklid/Comp_OF_models/

For Figure 2: The equivalent circuits of AC induction motor

Figure 3: The equivalent circuits for considering the skin effect of the AC induction motor

Hard to find images thats doesn't have at least one error.
Takes quite an effort to create a good delusion.

So what is a better delusion???

 

[7circle]

Can you explain how the photons manifest the stator and the rotor?

 

[liveforphysics]

Any method a human uses to assign names and values to a motors functions are delusions created out of a lack of understanding of the device.

All the individual component effects drawn in your post are some humans delusional model.

A schematic is not what is, nor can it express it. A schematic is a tool to share and compare some human delusion with other human delusions.

At no point through no amount of drawings and symbols and formulas does any understand of a motor emerge. Humans only strive for understanding the current best-fit delusion.

 

[liveforphysics]

Keep this in mind. One doesn't need to teach a motor any of the human models or labels and schematic squiggles for the motors to function.

It is the human who creates the delusion he takes comfort in by modeling. The models are no realer than the individual human is confused into believing. The device they apply the rules of there model to certainly does not have awareness of the model, it exists only in the minds of the humans making observations of related rates between variables they change.

At no point does this arrive you at some understanding of motors. It gives you understanding of the human delusion models that the motor obviously didn't need to know to operate.

 

[7circle]

The Force is strong with you Luke...


So will a Zero benefit fit from a small/light (perhaps ironless) front hub motor?

Or the dp3 ... how does one choose a path when there is little ... to learn from each path.

Follow the Poynton Vector

... there's a hole in the bucket dear Henry dear Henry
.....
But there's a hole in my bucket, dear Liza, dear Liza,