The Cycle Satiator, universal charger for the enthusiasts

[johnrobholmes]

More updates for me, in praise of this amazing brick charger.



Had a string of chargers die on me. No blown fuses, no telltale burned parts, no funny smells. More "king" chargers dead than the cost of the Satiator. After a charge the other day, I saw the Satiator throwing up a "short circuit" screen. Obviously Grin thought ahead and put in serious failsafes that are strong enough to catch a dead short before the charger is damaged.

Now I know which pack has the problem BMS
now I know NOT to use regular china chargers on this pack, lest I kill them at random
now I know even stronger what a great product this is!
and now I am completely spoiled and won't be using all these cruddy other ones that come with battery packs.

I'm very happy to have this small, light, powerful, and SMART charger in my possession. Every single Ebike enthusiast will greatly enjoy the ease of use and feature set. Don't hesitate when they have stock, this charger is the gold standard for all.

 

[justin_le]

Justin,
in the brochure on page 3 there is a chart about cycle life increase by decreased charge voltage.
I would like to know more about this (3x improvement is surprising for me), is there an analysis or study somewhere on the web describing it?

There are indeed countless studies and reports characterizing this relationship, and they are easy to find. It's why say Tesla is able to offer an 8 year warranty on their 18650 battery packs, when the norm in the ebike industry is 1 year, 2 at most, and why laptop batteries that stay plugged in and are rarely cycled still go to crap in a couple years.

Is this characteristic similar for LiFePO4?

As luke mentioned, LiFePO4 is a different chemistry altogether, and it would be almost impossible to charge at 80% based on voltage anyways since the charge curve is totally flat until you hit nearly 100%.

Is it also true for discharge rate, i.e. 80% discharge significantly increases cycle life?

I'm not sure to what extent keeping the final discharge voltage higher helps the cycle life as well. My impression is that sitting at a high voltage (4.2V / cell) is much worse than hanging out at the lower end of the voltage ( say 3.2V / cell). It's definitely bad for the cell life when it goes really flat (<2.5V or whatever), but whether there is much consequence to draining that last 20% ? I have seen lots of hearsay to keep cells in like a 20-80% SOC window but none that I recall which quantified the effect of the lower end, only at the upper end. If others know of studies that look into the life cycle ramifications of draining to 20% vs. 0% SOC, I'd love to see them!

 

[justin_le]

Great addition to the Grin range. I'm sure there'll be a lot of interest in it at Interbike.
Just starting to play with mine (thanks again Justin!).
One thing that occurred to me.... Is there any way to implement the option to invert the display readout? For cases where there's a need to mount the unit on the bike from below.

This is most definitely on the agenda Miles! And may be just a couple firmware release cycles away.

I'm just now back from Interbike and some ensuing travels, and can say that the reception at the ebike lounge from LEVA and some of the deep industry veterans was quite encouraging, some saying it's actually the most exciting thing they'd seen at the show. So hopefully this will find a volume marketplace, outside of the core of DIY enthusiasts here who can really appreciate all the functions

 

[justin_le]

I'm very happy to have this small, light, powerful, and SMART charger in my possession. Every single Ebike enthusiast will greatly enjoy the ease of use and feature set. Don't hesitate when they have stock, this charger is the gold standard for all.

Hey John and thanks for the praise, and I'm hoping we can keep delivering on the promise here.

On that front, the satiator firmware tool is now available for download. This is listed in the downloads section of the satiator page
http://www.ebikes.ca/satiator/ or you can go directly to:
http://www.ebikes.ca/downloads/Satiator_Profile_Editor_v0.9.exe

The tool should hopefully be self explanatory. You can create and remove profiles, give them whatever title and subtitle you want, and reorder them using the "move up" and "move down" buttons. The Title is limited to 9 characters, subtitle is 11 characters, and all the numeric data should be properly bounded to the appropriate limits for the device.


From the file menu, you have the ability to save and load profiles from a file (stored in an XML format), and you can also read and write profiles from the Satiator assuming that is connected and in bootloader mode. When you load profiles from a file, you have the option to append them to the existing profile list or replace the whole list. We've also included the firmare update utility bundled in this package, so you can also use it to reflash the Satiator firmware rather than needing the separate piece of software for that.


Please note that this software is only intended to work with the latest 0.815 firmware. The 0.815 firmware file is bundled with the download so if you launch the firmware update tool it will have this show up in the browse dialog.

• There is a limit of 21 profiles that can be stored on a satiator, so if you try and write more than this it will give you a warning and tell you to delete some of the profiles.
• If you have a created a profile with a custom title and left the "Is Modifiable" flag checked, and then you modify the profile parameters via the button presses on the Satiator, then it will return to having the default title and subtitle. Your custom title will be lost.
• There is a section for "Edit Global Settings" in the edit menu. At the moment, we haven't implemented any of these but it will allow you to change certain global parameters, such as the charger cable resistance, the screen saver timeout, the long button hold time, upsidedown display option etc.
• This V0.9 profile software release is not necessarily forwards compatible with future version of the Satiator firmware. So be prepared to download a newer version of the software utility at some point as the firmware gets closer to 1.0

I think that's it. Additional feedback is certainly welcome and can get incorporated into the development.

Also, there has been some good progress on the MAC version of the software suite and we've made at least the firmware flash updater available for download here:
http://www.ebikes.ca/downloads/Satiator_Updater_MAC_V0.9.zip

We've only done very limited testing here on a single machine, so if folks on the beta program have a mac device and can try it out on their computers too that'd be great. The full profile editor utility for mac's won't be much further behind.

 

[Ypedal]

Titles !!! YES ! 8) , thank you, will be flashing this sucker up today !

Quick question, is it pronounced Satiator as in " Saturday " ..... or " Saturation " .. vs " Say.Tiator " ?

working on a youtube video, would like to say it correctly lol

 

[rscamp]

Say-she-ate-her is closest!

 

[Miles]

Quick question, is it pronounced Satiator as in " Saturday " ..... or " Saturation " .. vs " Say.Tiator " ?

As it is, surely, derived from "satiate" (satisfy an appetite etc.) it must be pronounced like "say". No?

Say-she-ate-her is closest!

 

[Ypedal]

It's a beautiful thing !

I'm so happy !!!.. this is perfect, since i have various chemistries going with various cell counts, some with BMS , some without, at a quick glance i know i have the right profile for the right bike at all times.

Thank you !

 

[justin_le]

Hey YPedal, nice to see some custom named profiles on display. There is no need having the charge current written in the subtitle since the satiator will always show the actual set point current as well on the 3rd line, so you are free instead to have something more descriptive with these 11 characters.

Anyways, for mac users out there, if there are any, I've just uploaded a build of the same setup software for editing the profiles via a macbook. http://www.ebikes.ca/downloads/Satiator_Profile_Editor_Mac_v0.9.zip



If anyone can confirm of validate this software on their own machine that'd be nice, since as I said we only have one loaned macbook here at Grin. Due to some limitations right now both the profile editor and firmware update tools for mac are only running at 9600 baud, so it's about 4x slower to read and write to the satiator with the mac build versus the windows version, but otherwise the functionality should all be the same.

 

[bspalteh]

Tried the Mac version of the profile editor, works great, thanks!

I also tried the Mac version of the firmware updater. Program runs, but then when I tried to load the firmware file (with .hex extension), the file is greyed out and I can't select it. Any ideas, maybe I am missing something obvious.

 

[mrbill]

I set up some custom charge profiles in the Profile Editor v0.9 and wrote to the Satiator. That works fine.

But after I save my custom profiles to the saved_profiles folder I cannot see it in Windows Explorer. Strangely, I can see it in the Save dialog of the Satiator profile editor if I attempt to save it again to the file system. I am asked if I wish to overwrite the file. Even after overwriting the file, I still cannot see it in
Windows Explorer. I see only the the file, "default_profiles". It's as if the file disappears or isn't really saved. Perhaps it's not being closed properly after being written to.

Does anyone else observe this behavior?

 

[Ypedal]

upload the profiles directly from the editor software... arrow button thing.

 

[mrbill]

upload the profiles directly from the editor software... arrow button thing.

Uploading/downloading my profile to/from the Satiator itself (using the "arrow button thing" in the profile editor) works fine. When I try to save my profiles to a file on my computer (that I can back up properly) or perhaps someday upload to a second Satiator, I cannot find the file I just saved. It's either invisible or it didn't get saved.

 

[Ypedal]

I see mine in x:\satiator\satiator profile editor \ satiatorprofileeditorfiles\saved_profiles\ypedal bikes.xml

i zipped and attached file to this post as example ( unable to upload as .xml )

Does your machine have XML editing software installed ?.. showing hidden file types issue maybe ?

edit: fixed stupid comment.. about xml and excel lol.. pre-coffee posting . sorry

 

[mrbill]

I see mine in x:\satiator\satiator profile editor \ satiatorprofileeditorfiles\saved_profiles\ypedal bikes.xml

i zipped and attached file to this post as example ( unable to upload as .xml )

Does your machine have XML editing software installed ?.. showing hidden file types issue maybe ?

edit: fixed stupid comment.. about xml and excel lol.. pre-coffee posting . sorry

I think I discovered my problem. I had installed the Satiator Profile Editor on my C: drive in the Program Files directory. Even though I am an administrator of my own computer, I don't normally have write access to this folder or its sub-folders. That explains why the file didn't get saved.

A problem remains that the Profile Editor should have thrown an error upon attempting to save, or should have presented me with the option to invoke admin privileges to save my profile. It looks like the Profile Editor may be ignoring errors from the file system.

I moved the installed programs to my Users folder, and all works well now. I can save my profiles and see the file in Windows Explorer.

 

[marty]

I do not know what is a Satiator? This Satiator word is unknown to me. I do know what a Cycle is. I like the name Cycle Analyst. I understand that name. Makes me think of Psycho Analyst. That's just how my mind works.

I search for the meaning of Satiator with Google. I see a monster.

I ask my language expert? He say:
"I believe that Satiator is derived from the Latin word satis which means ample, sufficient, satisfactory."
Think a better name for us simple minded English speaking people would be [Universal Electric Bicycle Battery Charger, Model Number 1]

 

[r3volved]

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/_/dict.aspx?rd=1&word=satiate


tr.v. sa·ti·at·ed, sa·ti·at·ing, sa·ti·ates
1. To satisfy (an appetite or desire) fully.
2. To satisfy to excess.
adj. (-t)
Filled to satisfaction.

The satiator does the satiating

 

[liveforphysics]

A device to satisfy a battery.

This is what the name on a charger means to me.

 

[justin_le]

A device to satisfy a battery. This is what the name on a charger means to me.

That's what we'd hope most people would get from it. One of the main draws to this name was that to satiate at least to me implies being filled with just the right amount for your needs, rather than being stuffed to the max. And so it fits in the context of having control over the final battery charge levels to say 80 or 85% in order to greatly improve battery cycle life. My batteries are perfectly sated at 4.05 V/cell thank you very much! But if your batteries want to be stuffed to 4.25 V/cell, then you can satiate them as well.

 

[justin_le]

Tried the Mac version of the profile editor, works great, thanks!

I also tried the Mac version of the firmware updater. Program runs, but then when I tried to load the firmware file (with .hex extension), the file is greyed out and I can't select it. Any ideas, maybe I am missing something obvious.

Hi Bernhard, one thing we noticed is that certain systems will automatically or inadvertently append a .txt to the .hex file, so that it shows up on a system as Satiator_V0.815.hex.txt, but then the .txt extension being recognised is hidden so it just looks like a .hex file from the file dialog. Is it possible that this might have happened in your case?

 

[justin_le]

It's been a few weeks since I've posted a meaningful update here and it's because we're trying to cram and test a lot of target features for the V1.0 release, and that's required a lot of rewriting of some underlying code bases. The first main change is that we've now moved all the setup details into a separate "Satiator Setup" menu that you get to by pressing and holding down both buttons.



This way the act of configuration the Satiator and the charge profiles is much better quarantined from the normal usage of the device, when you just scroll through the active profiles and select one to start charging. There is no longer an "Edit Profiles" tab at the end of the active profile list. It also makes it easier to organize and add global settings that aren't profile specific, and get into the bootloader mode for PC connection without having to hold down the button while power cycling the AC input.

I think a number of people considering onboard use will be happy to see this one, the ability to flip the OLED screen upside down.

Hold the button to toggle this to a YES and then up becomes down and your whole world turns around!


For power users, we've also made the long button hold time adjustable. With this down to like 0.3 seconds or so, it's much faster to navigate through the process of editing and creating profiles since you can save and edit digits without waiting so long to register as a long hold.


The cable resistance is now user settable as well. So if you replace or lengthen/shorten the charge cable to your battery, then you can have the satiator compensate accordingly via a custom cable resistance so that as much as possible the displayed output voltage is the voltage on the terminals of your battery pack rather than the voltage on the charger output.


This then opens up the possibility for us to experiment with having the Satiator bulk charge to a target open circuit pack voltage by including the battery's internal resistance into the cable resistance term. So if your battery is 200mOhm, and the cable resistance is 87 mohm, then if you set this to 287 mOhm it should in principle bulk charge the pack right to your desired target voltage with no extended trickle down period at the end, as we discussed earlier in this thread. Most BMS circuits wouldn't allow that behavior to full 4.2V/cell charge voltage since it would trip the BMS, but they should work fine if it is like an 80% or 90% charge where the combination of the open circuit cell voltage plus the IR drop is still less than the cell upper voltage cutoff.

The current build pictured here is 0.823, but it'll be a few more days before we finish the immediate feature set and make available a V0.9 firmware for people to download. So just need to sit tight for a little bit longer..

I should also mention that we did receive our full first production run of devices last week, and so our actual formal release will be imminent once the the firmware features are dialed in. Although we won't have them visibly listed on the store site until then, if people missed out on the beta/pilot batch but are interested in getting one ahead of the actual release, that can be done from a direct link here:
http://www.ebikes.ca/satiator608.html

 

[7circle]

The other caveat is that at lower voltages _and_ low currents, then the statiator's power stage will operate in burp mode. So instead of a steady output current it will come in pulses at anywhere from 5-30Hz. Here for instance is the waveform with it running 10V and 3A into a load. The actual current goes a little over 4A for 28mS, and then drops to 0A for about 10mS.

I don't imagine there is much consequence to this, and normally the burp mode happens at a fast enough frequency that it gets averaged out on the display OK. But if you do see the numbers dance around a bit, especially towards the end of charging as the current ramps down to a trickle, that is why.

Can this be made continuous current for accurate trickle currents?

Or have the display indicate ripple?

Could the burp pulses interfere with BMS shunt function?

Who will be the first to hack into it and turn it into a 500W 3 phase brushless controller. (or just 200W) using the temp/aux as throttle input or PAS.
....

Are those Litz wound soft magnetic cores by chance? No wonder you've got extremely high efficiency, that is baller stuff my friend!

It looks like I'm seeing a high voltage PFC front-end feeding a 3 phase transformer assembly that gets rectified and paralleled and fed through the final very nice looking Litz smoothing output inductor and DC filter caps on the far right side of the photo?

If so, that's clever to break the phases up so you deal with something like 1/3rd (maybe less?) of the ripple current/voltage to smooth on your DC output. I like it! ....

And a comm's interface to a bms with the temp/aux pin.
Or celllog datalog port.

 

[r3volved]

Those are all real sweet little updates Justin! The screen flip is a really good idea.

I didn't realize it was still in beta....no wonder I couldn't find on the site. When do you expect the official release?
Am I better to wait a bit if i don't necessarily 'need' it now, or is the beta page you posted essentially the most up-to-date version if I were to order that?

 

[7circle]

Random thought: maybe the pack/charge cable could help determine the correct profile? I'm imagining DIP switches on a tiny board that identify a profile and use the LIN bus connector thingy.

It's not a bad random thought. We've deliberately left automatic profile selection process uncommitted at this stage. One of the easiest ones to implement would just be a fixed resistance between the signal pin and ground. Currently, the signal pin can do digital communication via LIN or it can measure the thermistor resistance between the Pin and Gnd for temperature sensing in NiMH/NiCad modes. But in lithium and lead modes and -dV Nickel modes it isn't used, so we have an option where the profiles are chosen automatically based on the resistance, so you could have it like

0.8-1.5 kOhm = Profile 1
1.5 - 3K = Profile 2
3K - 5K = Profile 3
...
...
>20K = user select

This would mean you'd just need to put a resistor on the XLR charge port of any battery pack you have and map it to the correct profile on the satiator, without any additional smart logic or communication, and have all your batteries load their profile automatically. It'd work fine for individual or private fleet applications, but not really a widerspread universal solution. For that I think we're going to wait and see what happens with the energybus standard and most likely adopt that route, with a charge calbe that has a LIN->CAN converter built in.
http://www.energybus.org/
...

Further ideas on the cable selected profile.

Using both a resistor and a capacitor in parallel would add an extra dimension to the detection.
A cap of say 1uF would cause a ramp up and the delay timing be detected.

Then a further dimension be added when discharging this cap by having a diode and a second resistor.
So R1 gives Rate
C gives capacity
And diode( option of resistor) gives auto ON/ENABLE instead of Manual prompt to say yes.

All with just ADC input of microcontroller with output/input select.
By setting pin to OUT high the Cap gets charged up.
By setting pin to adc input and capture voltage, the charge ramp can be measured.
Final rest voltage tells divider ratio for R value.
And by setting pin to output and pull low. The diode can be detected by faster discharge ramp rate.

Many options of wiring circuit to suite the Satiator AUX pin sense circuit for temp.
You may already have code for Auto detection for different NTC sensors.

[edit] this can still allow for a temp switch or relay from bms to open pin 2 to disable charging.
Circuit values would need to be selected to suite ADC rate.
I'm sure Justin and the grin crew get the drift of it.
Having 3 factors make the chance of some odd battery or other device being connected and charged wrongly.

7c

 

[7circle]

Those are all real sweet little updates Justin! The screen flip is a really good idea.

I didn't realize it was still in beta....no wonder I couldn't find on the site. When do you expect the official release?
Am I better to wait a bit if i don't necessarily 'need' it now, or is the beta page you posted essentially the most up-to-date version if I were to order that?

Isn't the cycle analyst still in beta,,,,