Thread for new battery breakthrough PR releases

LOL for those guys pretending it's new or that they came up with it.


http://newatlas.com/axial-stack-battery-supersonic-electric-airliners/45537/
 
Tu. Time to market? I really think this has potential. We have 20700 + 21700 but not really a big break compared to 18650. And the complexity of cylindrical cells will add to cost compared to the new stack.
 
That stacked battery stuff is nice as a refinement of current lithium ion technology and has the potential, in the interim, until something truly revolutionary comes along.

Current 18650s etc have the huge benefit of being modular. They can easily fit into a many number of OEM pack designs. These stacked jobbies, at least to take full advantage of what they can offer, look like they'd need to be customised specifically for your requirements.

What we really need is one of those new electrolyte designs to mature.
 
Everyone is acting like when the 20700's and 21700's become more available, that 18650's will die...

The way I read it is...when 21700's are more available and become the early adopter rage to own product?...18650's will go down in price. I may be wrong (I was wrong once back in 197....7?), but...when 18650's become cheaper, what will garage ebike battery builders use?

The thought of cheap 30Q's make me wake up in the middle of the night in a cold sweat. "Whats wrong honey, did you have a nightmare?"

"No...it was the most wonderful dream...30Q's were so cheap, they were almost free"
 
[BURP] "30Q's"? Had to look that up... Looks like Samsung INR18650-30Q 3000mAh battery (cells). Pls. advise if incorrect. :)
 
LockH said:
[BURP] "30Q's"? Had to look that up... Looks like Samsung INR18650-30Q 3000mAh battery (cells). Pls. advise if incorrect. :)

Indeed. 30Q are 3000 mAh. And they easily out 15A constant each...
 
^^ Merci, Mon Ami! Hehe
 
spinningmagnets said:
John Goodenough played a part in the early success of Lithium-Ion becoming a viable battery chemistry. Now, he is working on a glass-based electrolyte to prevent dendrite formation, and the new battery will also be sodium-based instead of lithium (more available, cheaper) for a type of solid state battery (no liquid electrolyte). Hopefully:

Non-combustable
More energy-dense per volume
Faster charging ability
Higher discharge ability
Longer life, more cycles

http://engr.utexas.edu/news/8203-goodenough-batteries

Although sodium might be more abundant in nature than lithium, I'm really NOT convinced AT ALL that sodium is the best choice to make "better" cells.

The single reason that I can think of is that one mol of sodium is much heavier than one mol of lithium... And heavier is not synonymous with progress IMHO. Remember back in the days when we had eBikes with heavy lead acid batteries ? Well lead is heavy.
To give you numbers, Sodium is 22,9898 g/mol while Lithium 6.983g/mol....

Elementary sodium and elementary lithium are both metals that violently react with almost anything including water (just type "sodium+water" or "lithium+water" in youtube to see some fun explosion). Both these elements have an irrepressible need to ged rid of a single electron so they can become more stable. So sodium or lithium in nature mostly exist as a cathions instead of electroneutral elementary atoms (Na+ instead of Na(0), and Li+ instead of Li(0)).

When looking at the periodic table of elements (https://opentextbc.ca/chemistry/wp-content/uploads/sites/150/2016/05/CNX_Chem_06_04_Ptableconf.jpg)
you can see the electronic configurations of both these elements.

Lithium's electronic configuration is 1s2 2s1 (2 electrons in 1st level s orbital ; 1 electron in 2nd level s orbital.... Total 3 electrons, so there is 3 protons in the nucleus to balance the charge... but also 4 neutrons in the nucleus... So 7 nucleus particules. Hence the weights close to 7g/mol. Eletrons, which are not part of the nucleus, weigh close to nothing in comparison.... Electrons are far from the nucleus. Hence ionisation implies certains amounts of energy... but nuclear fission/fission implies energy amounts far far more vast... but nuclear is not the scope here. electrons are)...
Helium, is a noble gas, which means it is extremly stable and unreactive... Helium's configuration is 1s2... Which means Helium has it's 1st valence orbital layer full, with 2 electrons in the s orbital.
So Lithium's electronic configuration can also be written this way : [He]2s1
Lithium (cat)ion or Li+ has one single electron missing. Why ??? Because when elementary lithium has lost it's electron, it has effectively aquired THE MOST POSSIBLE stable electronic configuration.... That is, Lithium in ion form (Li+) now has the exact same electronic configuration as Helium which is totaly totaly stable (aka totaly inhert or unreactive... the reason it's also called a noble element : it does not react with anything... too stable). This is why metallic lithium (the one kind that's artificially made by chemists, but not found in nature) will spontanously and exothermically react with water or any other kind of oxidizing agent that can oxidize lithium to Li+.

The same logic applies for Sodium (Na). It behave almost completely identically to lithium in électronique terms... It just weights more.
Elementary Sodium's electronic configuration is 1s2 2s2p6 3s1, aka [Ar]3s1 .
1s2 2s2p6 3s1 : 1st valence layer has one s orbital, capable of accepting 2 electrons (one "spin" electron and one "anti-spin" electron). The 2nd valence layer has 4 orbitals, each orbital being capable of holding two electrons : orbital s2, and the three p orbitals (p[x]2, p[y]2, p[z]2) so p6 in short... So the 2nd valence is full at 8 electrons total (2s2p6)... The third valence only has one electrons in the "s" orbital (3s1) and one free space, while the "3p" orbitals are completely emplty (6 free spaces) and the "3d" orbitals too (10 free spaces).
In total, elementary sodium has 11 electrons (2 + 8 + 1), 11 protons in the atom's nucleus to balance that charge and 12 neutrons... So the atom's nucleus has 23 particules (11 + 12) weighting close to 23 g/mol, but also 11 electrons gravitating around that nucleus (electrons weight is relly neglectible)
So by loosing one electron, elementery sodium (Na(0)) becomes cathionic sodium (Na+), thereby adopting the electronic configuration of another Noble element (Argon, another gas) which is also extremely stable.

So think about it for a second. One mol of anything is defining an absolute quantity of something (the avogadro number).... One mol is a quantity of 6.022140857×10^23 particules aka 602 214 087 500 000 000 000 000 paticules... In this very case, we're taking about lithium or sodium cations, which carry the positive charge of the battery.

So in order to have 602 214 087 500 000 000 000 000 positive charges, you would need 22.9898 grams of sodium (1 mole of sodium, because sodium is 22.9898 grams/mol).
To have the exact same 602 214 087 500 000 000 000 000 positive charges with lithium, you only need 6.983 grams of the substance... (1 mole of lithium being 6.983 g/mol).
Yes lithium is getting sort of "rare" to find on this planet, but you need almost 4 times less of it (in terms of weight) to acheive the same thing as you would have to do with sodium. So the concept of "rare" is sort of relative in a way.

I really don't get the hype on Sodium-ion batteries. I have some chemistry backgroung (Master degree in organic synthesis) although the subspecialty of electrochemistry is not my field. Am I missing something here with the sodium ?

I really thought that now that the we had the lithium part working, the next challenge would be to substitute the counter-ions (the anions) to lower weight ones that will still be stable.... Sure some of these single atoms can have multiple negative charges each, but Cobalt, Manganese, Aluminium, etc... these are quite heavy.... What's the next best thing ??

Matador
 
To illustrate a point of my last post :

Elementary sodium Na(0) (aka manmade unstable sodium) in water:
[youtube]NTFBXJ3Zd_4[/youtube]

By comparison, stable sodium ION that can be found in nature, for example as Na+ Cl- (or just what we call "salt" for most people):
The second one is a bit boring:
[youtube]2WS5eFc8x1U[/youtube]

Here's another one : water versus Lithium Li(0) versus Sodium Na(0) versus Potassium K(0):
[youtube]jI__JY7pqOM[/youtube]

From my personnal experience, metallic sodium will not explode as long as the bit you drop in water is not bigger than a small chocolate chip... Don't quote me on this one though. Quite dangerous stuff.

Matador
 
Thanks Matador I read what you said and found it interesting.
I didn't notice or realize that guy's new battery technology was sodium based instead of lithium and thus its heavier in weight, but even though that is the case its still an improvement over lead acid batteries.
I notice that all electric ATV quad bikes that are sold in china or even high-end ones made in England (not custom stuff) use lead acid batteries, so if this can get replaced with sodium-ion batteries then its still an improvement.
http://ecochargerquads.com/dominator.php

I found a Wikipedia page on Sodium-ion battery.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodium-ion_battery

If it frees up more lithium to be used where its really needed instead of it going into Tesla power walls etc then its good to see there as well.

I saw this report similar to the URL below on local TV and they said they looked into the history of the property and it turned out some previous owner "genius" was getting old lead acid batteries and melting them down in the back yard to make fishing sinkers and stuff like that so the soil is stuffed and is lead poisoning the new owners chickens.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-04-09/lead-pollution-threat-air-quality-major-australian-cities/8396782
A bit like this bloke is doing in this video.. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2BBiXHm4WGk

Also there are folks who build all sorts of hobby stuff like electric boats and just like this one below are stacked with standard 12v lead-acid car batteries, and sure enough I bet some of them will just turf those old batteries over the side of the boat into the water when they are done with them because that's just how people are. It will be much nicer if they had this new sodium-ion battery instead.
http://gas2.org/2015/12/17/mclaren-designer-builds-gorgeous-electric-speedboat/
 
TheBeastie said:
Thanks Matador I read what you said and found it interesting.
I didn't notice or realize that guy's new battery technology was sodium based instead of lithium and thus its heavier in weight, but even though that is the case its still an improvement over lead acid batteries.
I notice that all electric ATV quad bikes that are sold in china or even high-end ones made in England (not custom stuff) use lead acid batteries, so if this can get replaced with sodium-ion batteries then its still an improvement.
http://ecochargerquads.com/dominator.php

I found a Wikipedia page on Sodium-ion battery.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodium-ion_battery

If it frees up more lithium to be used where its really needed instead of it going into Tesla power walls etc then its good to see there as well.

I saw this report similar to the URL below on local TV and they said they looked into the history of the property and it turned out some previous owner "genius" was getting old lead acid batteries and melting them down in the back yard to make fishing sinkers and stuff like that so the soil is stuffed and is lead poisoning the new owners chickens.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-04-09/lead-pollution-threat-air-quality-major-australian-cities/8396782
A bit like this bloke is doing in this video.. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2BBiXHm4WGk

Also there are folks who build all sorts of hobby stuff like electric boats and just like this one below are stacked with standard 12v lead-acid car batteries, and sure enough I bet some of them will just turf those old batteries over the side of the boat into the water when they are done with them because that's just how people are. It will be much nicer if they had this new sodium-ion battery instead.
http://gas2.org/2015/12/17/mclaren-designer-builds-gorgeous-electric-speedboat/

Thanks for the input! Reading that wikipedia link, I'm actually please to see that Sodium-ion battery is expected to be able to hold 400 Wh/kg, that's actually very high !
In comparison, my Sony VTC4 cells (not the most energy dense on the market though because these cells focus more on high current capabilities than capacity) have around 160Wh/kg (427 Wh/L).

I guess the cation element doesn't play so much of a big role, as both are relatively light (Li+ is 6.938g/mol, Na+ is 22.9898 g/mol, Pb2+ would be 207.2 g/mol).
It's all the other elements in the cells that account for most of the weight...

Thinking with these element atomic mass which enter in the composition of many lithium chemistries ... :
Li : 6.938
O : 15.9994
Al : 26.9815386
P : 30.973761998
Ti : 47.867
Mn : 54.938044
Fe : 55.845
Ni : 58.6934
Co : 58.933194

... I can sort of grossly guess the influence on the chemical composition on the gravimetric energy density... Of course the real deal also has to account for the weight and size of the graphite anode (graphite being an insaturated "aromatic" polymer composed of carbon and hydrogen... it's not an element but rather a very big molecule). But for the cathode part, here's my brakedown (of course I'm not an eletrochemist, I'm an organic chemist)...

LiCoO2 (Lithium Cobalt Oxide, aka LCO or ICR) : 97.87 g/mol (the chemisty laptop/cellphone cells)
LiFePO4 (Lithium Iron Phosphate, aka LFP or IFR) : 157.75 g/mol (the chemistry in A123 or Headway cells)
LiMn2O4 (Lithium Manganese Oxide, aka LMO or IMR) : 180.81 g/mol (used in varied applications)
LiNiCoAlO2 (Lithium Nickel Cobalt Aluminium Oxide, aka NCA) : 183.54 g/mol (the chemistry in Tesla Cells)
LiNiMnCoO2 (Lithium Nickel Manganese Cobalt Oxide, aka NMC or INR) : 211.50 g/mol (the chemistry in Makita BL1840 cells)
Li4Ti5O12 (Lithium Titanate, aka LTO cells) : 767.61 g/mol
Also LiNiCoO2 (Lithium Nickel Cobalt Oxide, aka NCO)... and much more

So looking at the weight proportion occupied by the lithium element, we see lithium is not responsible for much of the cathode weight :
LCO : lithium responsible for 7.1 % of weight... The Cobalt Oxide part is the other 92.9 % of the cathode weight.
LFP : lithium responsible for 4.4 % of weight... The Iron Phophate part is the other 95.6 % of the cathode weight.
LMO : lithium responsible for 3.8 % of weight... The Manganese Oxide part is the other 96.2 % of the cathode weight.
NCA : lithium responsible for 3.8 % of weight... The Nickel Cobalt Aluminium Oxide part is the other 96.2 % of the cathode weight.
NMC : lithium responsible for 3.3 % of weight... The Nickel Manganese Cobalt Oxide part is the other 96.7 % of the cathode weight.
LTO : lithium responsible for 3.6 % of weight... The titanate part is the other 96.4 % of the cathode weight.

So now if we suppose we could just swap the lithium for the sodium, the weight would only slightly increase... Hence nor lithium or sodium have such a massive influence on weight... Actually removing the lithium (-6.938 g/mol) and subtituting sodium in it's place (+22.9898 g/mol) would just add 16.0518 g/mol. The problem is with the rest of the elements in the cathode, and the anode...

Swapping LCO : LiCoO2 --> NaCoO2 would become 113.92 g/mol (just a 16.4 % weight increase in comparison to lithium).
Swapping LFP : LiFePO4 --> NaFePO4 would become 173.80 g/mol (just a 10.2 % weight increase in comparison to lithium).
Swapping LMO : LiMn2O4 --> NaMn2O4 would become 196.86 g/mol (just a 8.9 % weight increase in comparison to lithium).
Swapping NCA : LiNiCoAlO2 --> NaNiCoAlO2 would become 199.59 g/mol (just a 8.7 % weight increase in comparison to lithium).
Swapping NMC : LiNiMnCoO2 --> NaNiMnCoO2 would become 227.55 g/mol (just a 7.6 % weight increase in comparison to lithium).
Swapping LTO : Li4Ti5O12 --> Na4Ti5O12 would become 831.81 g/mol (just a 8.4 % weight increase in comparison to lithium).

Bit of brain maths to wake up this morning :D

Matador
 
liveforphysics said:
LOL for those guys pretending it's new or that they came up with it.


http://newatlas.com/axial-stack-battery-supersonic-electric-airliners/45537/
here's hoping they have better luck with michigan frog than these guys from 2005.
http://www.nilar.com/technology/

fyi there's no need for a large battery in a hypersonic electric "air"plane when you're surfing a storehouse of free electrons aka the ionosphere.
 
As far as I understand it the high reactivity of lithium, being very eager to give up an electron, is why it's especially suited to energy storage.

Energy is volatile by its very nature and requires volatility in order to be stored. Lithium is eager to give up an electron, sodium is even more so, but in terms of free electrons it's identical to lithium. On an atom per atom basis I would assume that both can potentiate the same amount of energy storage.

Sodium just happens to be extremely abundant so it would be far more economical.

On the issue of density maybe a sodium battery would weigh more but as an overall % of the battery the lithium in it is tiny. A quick Google shows that your 4kg bike battery pack only has about 25g of lithium within. Even if sodium were 10x as dense it wouldn't exactly be of any dramatic consequence.

Now if the glass/polymer electrolyte techs show promise they could exhibit 2-3 times the energy density of current tech. You could have a battery of half the overall size, even with sodium and store more energy than what we have now.

On the case of safety, the electrolyte in current tech is the major problem wheh it comes to current batteries. It's highly flammable with a lot of energy even with the battery fully depleted. Go glass or polymer and that issue goes away.

I'm not a battery tech or anything so take what I've said with a grain of salt but it seems plausible. We just need a small revolution in battery tech before amazing things can happen.
 
Lithium is the 4th most abundant element in the earths crust.
 
Arlo1 said:
Lithium is the 4th most abundant element in the earths crust.
:shock: :shock: no, that would be iron being about 32% if the earth !
..Lithium is way down in about 25th place comprising 0.0007% !
Sodium is approx 2000 times more abundent as the 11th most common element
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abundance_of_the_chemical_elements
 
LockH said:
ES Bible "No suitable matches were found."... for "FlashBattery".

This Israeli startup has a battery that can charge an electric car in 5 minutes:
https://thenextweb.com/insider/2017...e-an-electric-car-in-5-minutes/#.tnw_WsOvCnEB

The battery ditches the traditional Lithium Ion makeup in favor of one of its own design, which arranges layers of nano materials and proprietary organic compounds to support ultra-fast charges.

[youtube]ZkMMxmPfWVA[/youtube]

8)
NOBUDDY picked up on this "news"?
 
Hillhater said:
Arlo1 said:
Lithium is the 4th most abundant element in the earths crust.
:shock: :shock: no, that would be iron being about 32% if the earth !
..Lithium is way down in about 25th place comprising 0.0007% !
Sodium is approx 2000 times more abundent as the 11th most common element
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abundance_of_the_chemical_elements
Well done Hillhater! It's great to see someone break out the Wikipedia links. I hate it when folks drop fake-new equivalent information when an undeniable science level Wikipedia fact is a copy and paste URL away.

Actually, there is an even better Wikipedia page even more dedicated to this kind of argument for elements called the "Abundance of elements in Earth's crust"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abundance_of_elements_in_Earth%27s_crust
And it even has the ranked number next to it of 33th for Lithium and our Sodium is 6th.

Its times like these I find Wikipedia so special and so crucial to being kept honest and accurate. While sometimes I wish there was even more data on Wikipedia to help win arguments about stuff such as proving that far more radio-active waste is created when a wind-turbine is produced for its rare earth neodymium magnets for the lifetime of its energy created in MWh's then for the same MWh's generated for a modern nuclear power-plant etcetera, but I would still prefer Wikipedia just sits with more raw simple hard data if it means keeping the site undeniably honest and respected which it seems its utmost goal. As honest information is just getting harder and harder to find.
 
Lithium batteries use a inconsequential amount and price of lithium.

The earth has no lithium abundance concerns, and it's the simplest element to recover from recycling (though it's not due to it being cheaper to source new.)

If someone wants to fret about a material in a battery, fret about Cobalt. It's being phased out to a lower % with each new cell cathode material design, but it's still by far the most environmentally nasty and prone to hitting a shortage material in a battery.

Todays automotive lithium rate is creeping up on matching the amount used for making colored glasses and ceramic glazes...

1489900476508.png
 
Hehe... My favourite form of "battery"/energy storage is about "lithium free"... a small one:
estream.jpg.662x0_q70_crop-scale.jpg


... bigger:
water-turbine-floating-lake-park-picture-44248262.jpg


... bigger:
PICTOU_TURBINES_848x480_689099843580.jpg


Recently we've seen an event in North America, where lots of places are flooded out... (odd expression)...

Where these waters run over the Niagara escarpment it "falls"... giving us (they say) "one of the world's greatest sources of hydroelectric power." Add to this river outflows before it gets to the St. Lawrence "river"... At the Abegweit "passage" (Wiki: the narrowest part of the Northumberland Strait, comprising the 13-kilometre-wide portion between Cape Tryon, Prince Edward Island, and Cape Tormentine, New Brunswick. Tidal currents in this area can reach up to 4 knots.)... NO idea of the volume of water that must be flowing "down stream"... constantly. So the trick might be how to "harness" all that energy (amusing term) without injuring and killing "stuff". :)

EDIT: Sorry `bout getting "OT"... I'm as much interested in GENERATING electricity using HUGE "batteries". With small vehicles using "small" batteries to go "unharnessed", I'll guess we pretty much have "things" "licked" with lithium-flavoured batts. :mrgreen: (No trees were sacrificed in making this post. Probably... Unlike those naughty newsPAPERs. :wink: )
 
NOBUDDY picked up on this "news"?


Well it is rather unclear to my what they are actually promoting. Is it a new battery or is it a quick charge module? Meaning will those cells replace Li ion cells or come in addition to li ion cells - almost like an array of superconductors?
 
^^ Looks like a bunch of "cells" to make one huge battery...
https://www.store-dot.com/business-units

8e240e_7dbbc1f706ad43a185742dc94ff70fc1~mv2.png


StoreDot’s core technology incorporates chemically synthesized organic molecules of non-biological origin. These innovative molecules demonstrate uniquely tunable optical and electrochemical properties, which allow for enhanced performance of energy storage devices.

LiBs (Lithium-ion batteries) power today both portable devices and EVs. While exhibiting relatively slow charging and discharging capabilities, over time, the internal chemical reactions inside the battery reduce their ability to retain energy. Yet, StoreDot has succeeded in maximizing the charge transfer rate, and has enhanced it to heighten the superior characteristics of FlashBattery™.

LiBs contain inorganic compounds in the battery’s cathode, typically comprising metal oxides or polyanions which are continuously recharged by the insertion of lithium ions. This process limits ionic conductivity, thereby reducing the power density and shortening the battery’s life expectancy. Moreover, the electrolyte used in LiBs is highly volatile and flammable, posing a severe safety risk to consumers, critical especially in electric cars.

Using a unique multifunction electrode (MFE), StoreDot’s FlashBattery combines two benefits of energy storage solutions, incorporating the high-power rapid-charging rate capability with the high-energy storage ability.

This optimized charging ability is achieved through an innovative electrode structure containing proprietary organic polymers with Metal Oxide compounds of the cathode that trigger the redox reactions. This solution enables ions to flow from a modified anode to a modified cathode at a speed that is much faster than existing technologies. Together with a proprietary separator and electrolyte, this new architecture delivers a high current and low internal resistance, with enhanced energy density and a prolonged battery life.

Etc... :)

Maybe read this? Give us the "Executive Summary". :wink:
https://www.google.com/patents/US9225187
 
considering that they claim to have developed the "Holy grail" of battery cells ..fast charge, high capacity, long life, low cost, etc etc...
.... it is surprising we are not all in need of clean underwear, and that "Store dot" has not been swallowed up by one of the big fish .(LG, Panasonic. Tesla, etc)
This has been rumbling along for a few years (2012 ?) and does not seem to have progressed much in the last couple of years.
However, there must be something to it, as the company founder was apparently offered $1+Bn for the company 2 years ago !
http://video.foxbusiness.com/v/3479292884001/?#sp=show-clips
PS...dont those battery units look a lot like Nissan Leaf modules ?
 
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