Thread for new battery breakthrough PR releases

Order of magnitude is in most circles a 10x. At roughly 6.8 lbs/gallon for kero and efficiency hit of 30% (Max) we are nearing 1/6 in a reuseable energy store. Certainly a ways to go, but a big step if it pans out and it does look to be able now to take up much of the shorter run apps in this space depending on costs.
 
More battery porn videos!
I am actually quite excited about this Sodium-ion battery that the biggest battery and EV companies in China are claiming they will be releasing "this year".
Even if sodium-ion batteries don't perform nearly as well as lithium, it still seems to be a viable replacement for cheaper EV cars and storage. It might even replace lead-acid batteries for ICE vehicles. Getting rid of lead should be an important goal as a lot of places are poised with lead.

I bought a 50pack of AA batteries that were on special the other week at ALDI for $3 AUD... so that's 6 cents per AA cell... If the raw materials to create that AA cell still earned the cell makers some money then it just shows you how cheap making a mass-produced battery can be... A 18650 cell is about x3 bigger than a AA battery, so if we can even get sodium-ion 18650 cells one day for anything close to 18 cents per cell, then that is a night and day difference than what we see today with lithium-ion cells.
cleantechnica.com

The Sodium-Ion Battery Is Coming To Production Cars This Year - CleanTechnica

Sign up for daily news updates from CleanTechnica on email. Or follow us on Google News! Lithium is abundant, but difficult to extract and purify for use in batteries. Last year, the price of lithium carbonate peaked at over $80,000 per ton, although it has come down considerably since then...
cleantechnica.com cleantechnica.com
 
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speedmd said:
Order of magnitude is in most circles a 10x. At roughly 6.8 lbs/gallon for kero and efficiency hit of 30% (Max) we are nearing 1/6 in a reuseable energy store. Certainly a ways to go, but a big step if it pans out and it does look to be able now to take up much of the shorter run apps in this space depending on costs.
Click to expand...
OK, i sse your point on detail of “order of magnitude”… but with avgas at 11,900 Wh/kg, and commercial aero turbines at 35% overall efficiency , that implies an effective output of 4,168 Wh/kg Used.
So,..a 500 Wh/kg cell is still less than 1/8 the energy equivalent….before you factor in the real Wh/kg of a PACK LEVEL certified system, which as we said previously adds 50+% to the weight of the pack !….hence “pack level” energy density might be more like 300Wh/kg,..or about 14 times less than avgas !
Now, that was for a 100%, (250Wh/kg) , improvement in cell energy density, and if you had to match the avgas 4168 Wh/kg (effective) at pack level , then a cell level figure of 14x500, = 7000 Wh/ kg might be anticipated.…..
…..then you might have to make that 250Wh/kg improvement 28 times over to get there !!😳😳
..which , to me, is “several orders of magnitude” improvement !🤔👍
 
TheBeastie said:
I bought a 50pack of AA batteries that were on special the other week at ALDI for $3 AUD... so that's 6 cents per AA cell... If the raw materials to create that AA cell still earned the cell makers some money then it just shows you how cheap making a mass-produced battery can be... A 18650 cell is about x3 bigger than a AA battery, so if we can even get sodium-ion 18650 cells one day for anything close to 18 cents per cell, then that is a night and day difference than what we see today with lithium-ion cells.
Click to expand...
“Tell them they are dreamin’”
a few relavent points..
1) selling price bears little direct relationship to production costs..
..a producer may sell the bulk of production capacity at a loss to volume buyers (Aldi ?), just to ensure his manufacturing facilities are fully utilised (max efficiency) ,..whilst an operating profit is then made by selling a minority of production to “premium” buyers who do not have the same negotiating power as the bulk buyers.
2) selling price of mass produced products is more likely dictated by “operating costs” ..( labour, energy, asset depreciation, etc etc)
with material costs being only a minor component of the total production cost
3) “Market Competition” and business strategy will also be a big factor in sales contract pricing.
 
Chart looks like we are at the beginning of the S curve. China researchers Announce 711 Wh/kg tech.
1682516536366.png
cleantechnica.com

Chinese Researchers Announce 711 Wh/kg Lithium Battery - CleanTechnica

Researchers in China report they have created a lithium-ion battery with an energy density of more the 700 Wh/kg. Wow!
cleantechnica.com cleantechnica.com

4168 / 711 = 5.86 👌 A bit Closer than most think. Any idea what the weights are of the fuel tanks, pumps and added complex motor systems? Interesting comparison.
https://cleantechnica.com/files/2023/04/lithium-ion-batteries-1-1536x848.jpg
 
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speedmd said:
4168 / 711 = 5.86 👌 A bit Closer than most think.
Click to expand...
You are still comparing produced energy from FF, to CELL LEVEL theoretical energy.
As for weights, aero fuel tanks are conventionally an integral part of the airframe and a typical aero turbo fan ( RB 211-535 ), weighs 3700 kg (dry weight)..and is rated at 25 MW shaft power.
…How much does a 25 MW electric motor weigh ??… And how much would a suitable 25 MW inverter weigh ??
….i have a good idea of the answers, …do you ?
 
Hillhater said:
…How much does a 25 MW electric motor weigh ??… And how much would a suitable 25 MW inverter weigh ??
….i have a good idea of the answers, …do you ?
Click to expand...


How much does a 25,000kW motor weigh?>

Eh? I know I can find out pretty easy. In some catalog somewhere. Probally like.. a click away. However.. if you have an idea, I would love to know.

Whats it weigh? HH?

 
Hillhater said:
As for weights,
…How much does a 25 MW electric motor weigh ??…
Click to expand...


Are we talking.. Nema 355.. or like NEMA 900?

So anyway. Heres one.

The TM21-G. One example data point. An industrial motor designed for power industry use ( power generation plants) .

23000kW. 7,715 lb (3,500 kg) 2 meters by five meters. Built heavy for industrial use. ( look at it. )



Airbus A320 has a Pratt and Whitney PW1000G. Geared turbo fan.

6300 lb / 2858 kg

en.wikipedia.org

Pratt & Whitney PW1000G - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org

​

 
Ok now for the inverter. How much does a 7,000lb, 23,000kW, 30,666hp motor inverter weigh? Anybody> Off the top of your head? Anybody got an idea?

Anybody got a real clue as to what a 30 thousand horsepower inverter weighs? Such as those that are used in power plants all over the world.. and shipped,.. from.. California.. ?

I could look it up.

Pretty easy.

Anyway, All I know is my Hobbywing 160 V4 is.. pretty light for its output.
 
speedmd said:
And for some reason you wish to eliminate the possibility that the airframe can also be used to house cells and use weight figures from obviously overweight older land based packs? Stunning!
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Unless there is some other unforseen change in tech, all multi cell systems seem to be composed of “packs” for multiple reasons..ease of connectivity, cooling, mechanical support, quick exchange, etc etc.
Even “permanent” utility type systems are assembled as packs.
If you can see an alternative , please tell .
 
DogDipstick said:
The TM21-G. One example data point. An industrial motor designed for power industry use ( power generation plants) .

23000kW. 7,715 lb (3,500 kg) 2 meters by five meters. Built heavy for industrial use. ( look at it. )

[/URL]

​

Click to expand...
? I see the site and the motor you referenced, but i dont see the weight specified anywhere ?
But ..guessing that a Tesla type motor should be good for 500kW continuous (?) , and weighs about 50 kg (?)….….
…then a 25MW version could be in the order of 2500 kg ?
…but then i see reports like this..
“Siemens researchers have developed a new type of electric motor that, with a weight of just 50 kilograms, delivers a continuous output of about 260 kilowatts - five times more than comparable drive systems. The motor has been specially designed for use in aircraft. Thanks to its record-setting power-to-weight ratio,”
…which would suggest more like 5000 kg for that 25 MW motor ?
So now we just need to find the weight of a suitable 25MW inverter to add.
 
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Hillhater said:
? I see the site and the motor you referenced, but i dont see the weight specified anywhere ?

So now we just need to find the weight of a suitable 25MW inverter to add.
Click to expand...
I know the weight of the units. I told you the weight. 7,715 lb (3,500 kg).

For the inverter.. all that. Yes. We can build a "light enough for flight" inverter and motor, combo, that outputs more than a jet engine in less weight. This is not a problem. Any real good power industry engineer would tell you this. 25MW inverter? Lol hell we can build 100MW inverters.. easy.. ( 100 megawatt inverters).

However what you say is true. The notion of the stored energy. Mark my words. We will never see commercial aviation driven by electric motors.

AVGAS just holds to much energy to compete with. The energy density of the cell, vs the energy density of the fuel. Not gonna happen.

You are right. 100% there.
 
Never is a long time my friend. I remember not so long ago a few builder friends laughing at my cordless drill - driver. Now looking at most any construction site, it's most of the tooling used on site. Many other examples are around us now. The commercial flight topic deserves its own thread for certain, but for the few nay Sayers here, It is disingenuous to extrapolate weights of electric locomotive motors or commercial generators to what is possible to currently design for aviation.

From a battery structural design standpoint. Large outer surface areas could lend themselves nicely to laminations of thin films and foils of batteries. Given that a large percentage of commercial flight is short haul, we are very near having this as a real possibility, at least for short haul apps. Certainly will need a significant bit more energy density to make it worthwhile. Interesting times.
 
DogDipstick said:
I know the weight of the units. I told you the weight. 7,715 lb (3,500 kg).

For the inverter.. all that. Yes. We can build a "light enough for flight" inverter and motor, combo, that outputs more than a jet engine in less weight. This is not a problem. Any real good power industry engineer would tell you this. 25MW inverter? Lol hell we can build 100MW inverters.. easy.. ( 100 megawatt inverters).
Click to expand...
OK, .. as this is so easy to do, how about some actual examples/ data (with references) ?
I quoted the Seimens flght motor development of 260 kW and 50 kg (no inverter) …. So what else is current “state of the art”,.. and not just a techie dream ?
(where are all these “real good power industry engineers “ when you need them ?)
Edit…
failing any other sources, maybe the best guide for inverter/controller weights is currently the EV market which seems to be leading the field in practical systems.
Snady Munro analysed several of the current EV systems ..BMW, Volt, Tesla 3, Jaguar , etc and it would appear that a 250-300 kW inverter weighs in at about 40 kg.
insideevs.com

Sandy Munro Compares Tesla's Motors & Inverters With The Competition

One of the goals of Munro’s teardowns is to figure out how much, if any, margin an automaker is earning on a particular model.
insideevs.com insideevs.com
So it may be reasonable to assume a 1MW unit might weigh in the order of 150 kg, and hence a 25 MW device in the regeon of 3500-3700 kg ??
Maybe scaling can reduce that somewhat, but it seems that a 25MW inverter/ controller would be in the order of 1000,s kgs rather than 100,s kgs.
Any data to the contrary ?
EDIT 2
as an FYI, Tesla’s Megapack storage battery (3.9 MWh) is reported to utilise an “inverter” unit that outputs 2MW , weighs in at 1200 kg ? 😳…..why would that be ?
 
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DogDipstick said:
AVGAS just holds to much energy to compete with. The energy density of the cell, vs the energy density of the fuel. Not gonna happen.
Click to expand...

On the other side, there's the abysmal thermodynamic efficiency of combustion engines that squanders most of the hypothetical energy density advantage of fossil fueled flight, plus engine cost, wear and complexity that make it inherently more expensive than electric flight and multiply maintenance/downtime.

I think at least some of us are likely to live until kerosene powered flight is reminiscent of carbide lighting or punched-card data today-- still existent, but borderline nonsensical historical tech.
 
Chalo said:
On the other side, there's the abysmal thermodynamic efficiency of combustion engines that squanders most of the hypothetical energy density advantage of fossil fueled flight, plus engine cost, wear and complexity that make it inherently more expensive than electric flight and multiply maintenance/downtime.

I think at least some of us are likely to live until kerosene powered flight is reminiscent of carbide lighting or punched-card data today-- still existent, but borderline nonsensical historical tech.
Click to expand...
If You read the discussion, you might see that the low thermal eff of aero engines (35%) has already been factored into the comparison……yet the energy density of FF power is still MANY ORDERS OF MAGNITUDE greater than any current ( or proposed) electrical flight power system.
Wishful thinking cannot overcome reality !
PS…What estimates of costs for a comparable flight power train doyou have to declare such a cost advantage ?
(Similar claims were made for EVs, but have proven to be elusive !)

speedmd said:
Wish the moderator would stuff all the FUD'sters posts in their own threads. Current land based systems are not good examples of what can be done long term with creative solutions.
Click to expand...
We are talking reality and practicality , ( battery energy density ), not idealistic , non existant, dream tech !
If you do not like the direction of the thread discussion, contribute some useful content rather than appeal for moderator intervention
 
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Hillhater said:
If You read the discussion, you might see that the low thermal eff of aero engines (35%) has already been factored into the comparison……yet the energy density of FF power is still MANY ORDERS OF MAGNITUDE greater than any current ( or proposed) electrical flight power system.
Wishful thinking cannot overcome reality !
Click to expand...

Ignoring the effect of maintenance hours vs flight hours also won't overcome reality.
 
Assuming a maintenance advantage for a non existant system, is presumptious!
Commercial aero engine maintenance is not the only factor dictating downtime for maintenance.
Airframe and flight systems checks adsorb as much downtime as engine swaps.
 
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speedmd said:
Interesting looking motor setup. 2.8 MW in a 220KG package. H3X | Electric Aircraft
Click to expand...
That certainly sounds very impressive, (it is a rendering ) especially as it claims to have incorporated ALL drive components ( including inverters ) into the 12kW/kg system !
That is approx 4 times Tesla’s best figure, and 50% better than Seimens development ( without inverters etc )
However,..this is still theoretical, with no prototype yet and from a organisation with a total funding of just $9.0 million ?
…from their site..
“Lockheed Martin is backing technology start-up H3X in the development of an integrated modular motor drive that it says will deliver the quantum leap in power density and fault tolerance needed to power 50- to 100-seat aircraft. The value of the U.S. aerospace and defense giant’s investment in H3X was not disclosed in a February 28 announcement, but it takes H3X’s funding total to $9 million…. “
..not much of a comittmennt from LH ?
..and not much of a financial base for an aero engine development company !
I will reserve judgement until it flies .
 
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