Torqeedo 1003 suggestions for an off the shelf Controller

[silverheels]

Background
This is for use on a Hybrid Human/Solar powered boat. The Torqeedo will replace a modified Minnkota motor that is driven by a generic PWM with power supplied by a 200ah 24v LifePo4 (8s) battery system. I hope to keep the current 24v system.

Desired outcome:
Be able to efficiently control the Torqeedo motor using a remotely mounted controller and throttle with the existing 24v (8s LifePo4) battery setup.

Current situation
I have a Torqeedo 1003s that appears to have a controller built into the motor/gearbox housing, shown here with the forward and aft motor housing covers removed.


Un modified DC power is provided to the controller board via wiring that runs through the Pylon shaft. Main power is connected to two terminals fitted to one side of the board:


Data/Control signals are provided via 4 wires that also run through the Pylon shaft. These control/data wires are connected to the forward side of the control board using a plug connector:


Power from the control board is then sent to the Motor via three copper wire bundles that connect to the armature. Two of the AC power copper wire bundles are visible in the photo showing the 4 wire connector, the other AC power wire is visible here:



Here is another view of the 4 wire connector and two of the AC power wires that connect the controller to the armature:


Help!
Would a Grin Phaserunner do the job efficiently? Are there other efficient controllers I should use?
Or
Could I use the exisiting controller, but supply 8s LifePo4 power to the board, and hack together some kind of Throttle?

Suggestions, thoughts, ideas = most welcome!

Thanks for reading this far
-Mark

 

[silverheels]

Here is a diagram of a similar drive, this one is drawn by Mark Drela:



Here is one of Rich Willoughby's implementation of a Flexdrive:



And a short video showing another version of the Flexdrive. This version is strut-less and self aligns to the water flow:
https://vlpboat.blogspot.com/p/blog-page.html

 

[leybol12]

I know this is a little late but did you ever get the Torqeedo going. I also have a 1003 that I am converting to run off a standard sensorless brushless controller. I cut off the old board, soldered wires to the three windings leads, and fed the wires up through the aluminum tube. I hooked up an Alien Power System 90v 200 ESC to the wires (about 3' of length) and am able to drive the motor successfully on the bench and under load in water I am now working a throttle arm that will convert a standard ebike twist throttle into the necessary RC PPM (1 to 2ms pulse every 20ms). I decided to use a separate switch for forward-reverse to give more sensitivity to the twist throttle.
Biggest problem has been the ebike twist throttle. All of them out there are hall effect coupling so the output goes 0.6 to 4.3v. I was going to build two interfaces, one analog and the other using a Microchip PIC controller. I designed and built the analog version in a couple hours but it will take a lot longer to write the code for the PIC controller.
PS your 1003 appears to be a real early one. My two have the same gearboxes but different rotors. Your rotor looks like the Travel 603 rotor but not the Travel 603 gearbox.
David

 

[leybol12]

I know this is a little late but did you ever get the Torqeedo going. I also have a 1003 that I am converting to run off a standard sensorless brushless controller. I cut off the old board, soldered wires to the three windings leads, and fed the wires up through the aluminum tube. I hooked up an Alien Power System 90v 200 ESC to the wires (about 3' of length) and am able to drive the motor successfully on the bench and under load in water I am now working a throttle arm that will convert a standard ebike twist throttle into the necessary RC PPM (1 to 2ms pulse every 20ms). I decided to use a separate switch for forward-reverse to give more sensitivity to the twist throttle.
Biggest problem has been the ebike twist throttle. All of them out there are hall effect coupling so the output goes 0.6 to 4.3v. I was going to build two interfaces, one analog and the other using a Microchip PIC controller. I designed and built the analog version in a couple hours but it will take a lot longer to write the code for the PIC controller.
PS your 1003 appears to be a real early one. My two have the same gearboxes but different rotors. Your rotor looks like the Travel 603 rotor but not the Travel 603 gearbox.
David

Again post late in the game, but I did the conversion using the Alien Power System 200A esc. The initial wiring was done in a Delta configuration for running with 8 series 4.2v lipo cells. This gave the prop speed of 1300 rpm with the planetary gearbox reduction. I wanted to run a 13 series 4.2v lipo cells to be compatible with my ebike packs. Problem is that I would have closer to 2000 rpm prop speed drastically increasing current. I could program the ESC to limit rpm, but took a quick look at the wiring let me rewire the windings to be in a Wye configuration. This reduced the rpm/volt of the motor almost 40%. Now I have a prop speed of 1320 rpm unloaded at 52v. My Io current (unloaded motor current with gearbox) dropped 40% also. I mounted the ESC in a waterproof aluminum box on top of the shaft tube and ran the three phases down to the motor. In a test take the motor drew 1000w at full rpm.

I took it for a week trial in Wisconsin pushing a borrowed 130 lb 15' Saturn Kaboat. I set up two 48v nominal (13 series cells) 30 amp-hour packs using Panasonic 21700 5.0 ah-hr cells. We had 500 lb of people in it. Using the GPS on my phone we would get to 4.8 mph at full throttle. With one person in the boat, it averaged 5.8 mph. Once at full speed, the power dropped by 200 watts to 800 watts. Motor temperature stayed under 53 C (I wired the thermistor mounted in the motor so I can monitor temperature).

I did end up using a Pic Microcontroller. Turns out I has similar code written for a previous project so it only took a couple hours to adapt.

Now I have to modify the motor lock down so it will kick up when going forward if it hits a rock instead of breaking the skeg. Lost two skegs (no props) on river shallows. This fall we hope to hit the Colorado River by Southern California and do some endurance testing. Planning on buying a 90lb 13' Saturn Kaboat outfitter (doubly thick bottom) and see if we can get it up planing with one person.

 

[Markillie]

Thanks for posting the pictures and sharing.
Great information.
Wondering if you have any updates on how your conversion turned out. I picked up a 1003 on market place without a battery. I’m contemplating either:
1) spending $1000 on a Torqueedo battery
2) doing your direct wire to motor method using a brushless sensorless DC drive.

Do you see any motor issues if a 36V drive and battery are used?

Any major performance issues when compared to factory motor mounted controller?

It’s going on a 21’ cabin sailboat, so plenty of space to load up on amp hours and it would still cost a lot less than the factory battery.

But keeping it original would also be nice. I’m a bit torn.

Any input on how your unit ended up performing with the aftermarket drive may help me decide and be appreciated.

 

[emir0723]

Thanks for posting the pictures and sharing.
Great information.
Wondering if you have any updates on how your conversion turned out. I picked up a 1003 on market place without a battery. I’m contemplating either:
1) spending $1000 on a Torqueedo battery
2) doing your direct wire to motor method using a brushless sensorless DC drive.

Do you see any motor issues if a 36V drive and battery are used?

Any major performance issues when compared to factory motor mounted controller?

It’s going on a 21’ cabin sailboat, so plenty of space to load up on amp hours and it would still cost a lot less than the factory battery.

But keeping it original would also be nice. I’m a bit torn.

Any input on how your unit ended up performing with the aftermarket drive may help me decide and be appreciated.

Hey, I'm in the same boat as you. I bought the motor without a battery unit. I guess we could try to help each other out. I want to use a custom battery because original ones are quite an expensive for me.

 

[murat2371]

Yine de oyunun bölümlerini paylaşım yaparak kullanıyorum Alien Power System 200A esc kullanarak yaptım. İlk kablolama, 8 serisi 4.2v lipo sistemiyle çalıştırılma şekli Delta konfigürasyonunda yapıldı. Bu, gezegenin kutusunun azalmasıyla birlikte 1300 rpm'lik pervane kanatları verdi. Ebike paketleriyle uyumlu olması için 13 serisi 4.2v lipoların kullanılabilmesini sağlamak istedim. Sorun şu ki, akımın büyük ölçüde artması 2000 rpm'ye yakın pervane hızına sahip olacağım. ESC'yi rpm'yi sınırlayacak şekilde programlayabilirdim, ancak kablolara hızlı göz atıp taramaları Wye konfigürasyonunda olacak şekilde yeniden bağlamaya izin verdim. Bu, motor devri/volt değerini neredeyse %40 oranında azalttı. Şimdi 52v'de boşaltılmış 1320 rpm'lik bir pervane hızım var. Io akımım (şanzımanlı yüksüz motor akımı) da %40 düştü. ESC'yi ürünlerinin borularının toplamı su geçirmez bir alüminyum kutuya monte edilmiş ve üç fazı motora kadar çalıştırdım. Bir testte motor tam devirde 1000w güce dikkat çekti.

Ödünç alınan 130 lb 15' Saturn Kaboat'ı iterek Wisconsin'de bir haftalık deneme için almıştım. Panasonic 21700 5,0 ah-saat sistemi kullanılarak iki adet 48v nominal (13 seri hücre) 30 amperlik paket oluşturuldum. İçinde 500 kiloluk insanımız vardı. Telefonumdaki GPS'i kullanarak tam gazda 4,8 mil/saat hıza ulaşabildik. Teknede bir kişi varken ortalama 5,8 mil/saat hıza ulaştı. Tam hıza ulaştığında güç 200 watt düşerek 800 watt'a düştü. Motor sıcaklığı 53 C'nin altında kaldı (sıcaklığı izleyebilmek için motora monte edilmiş termistörü kabloladım).

Sonunda bir Pic Mikrodenetleyici kullanmaya başladım. Daha önceki bir proje için benzer bir kod yazdığım ortaya çıktı, ancak sadece birkaç saat uyum sağlamayı sürdürdü.

Şimdi motor bloğunu değiştirmem gerekiyor, böylece doğru yolda bir kayaya çarptığında parçacıkları kırmak yerine harekete geçecek. Nehir sığ ikiliğinde fıçıyı (destek yok) kaybettim. Bu sonbaharda Güney California'dan Colorado Nehri'ne ulaşmayı ve bazı dayanıklılık testlerinde performans göstermeyi başardı. 90 lb 13' Saturn Kaboat bağışçısı (iki kat kalın alt) satın almayı planlıyoruz ve bunu tek kişiyle planlayıp halledemeyeceğimize bakıyoruz.

Merhaba 1003'üm var, pilim yok, dönüştürmek istiyorum, ilerleme kaydederseniz resim ve video gönderin.

 

[Markillie]

Hello Emir0723,
I feel better now that I’m not alone.
I order a controller off Amazon. Suppose to arrive Thursday.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B09FL9K551/ref=ya_aw_od_pi?ie=UTF8&psc=1

The housing split quite easily and should seal back up fine using the existing orings.
I snipped the existing wires from board to motor and soldered 3 of the 4 existing power wires to the motor. (Pulled out slack cable towards motor, separated the cable, then pulled back leaving just enough to reach the motor).

The wiring part went fine, but will be interesting to see what happens once connected to controller. I will let you know.

 

[emir0723]

Hello Emir0723,
I feel better now that I’m not alone.
I order a controller off Amazon. Suppose to arrive Thursday.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B09FL9K551/ref=ya_aw_od_pi?ie=UTF8&psc=1

The housing split quite easily and should seal back up fine using the existing orings.
I snipped the existing wires from board to motor and soldered 3 of the 4 existing power wires to the motor. (Pulled out slack cable towards motor, separated the cable, then pulled back leaving just enough to reach the motor).

The wiring part went fine, but will be interesting to see what happens once connected to controller. I will let you know.

That's great to hear! I'll look forward for your results. To be honest, I'm not so good with electronics, but do you think motor controller would be enough to not burn the motor?

By the way the context a bit different but this videos/docs might worth a check out:

Torqeedo Electric Motors — Rover documentation

ardupilot.org

 

[murat2371]

 

[murat2371]

 

[murat2371]

I disassembled the engine and marked it. I will remove the links. I think it is a heat sensor like NTC.

 

[Markillie]

Just a heads up. Hooked up the controller and my motor is not running. It starts to move when in train mode, but only goes a 1/4 turn then stops. Not sure if it’s just not a good combination of controller motor or something else. I plan to spend some more time on it over the weekend, but wanted to let you know my results haven’t been real good so far.

 

[murat2371]

The video is not very descriptive, I don't understand what it does to run it, maybe it will help.

 

[Markillie]

I tried the WYE configuration as was done above. It will run when wired like this, but rpms are low, still chatters a bit, and the motor is heating up. Thinking the motor would burn out I quickly if left running.

I don’t think the cheap controller is going to work with this motor. Using original controller and tying to emulate the communication as was done with the rover project you posted is probably the best approach. Or just spend the money on a factory battery, but for may application, I would be better off spending that on a gas outboard.

Wish I could have shared more positive results. Good luck with yours.

 

[murat2371]

Sadece aklınızda bulunsun. Kumandayı bağladım ve motorum çalışmıyor. Tren modundayken hareket etmeye başlar, ancak yalnızca 1/4 tur döner ve sonra durur. Bunun kontrol motoru veya başka bir şeyin iyi bir kombinasyonu olup olmadığından emin değilim. Hafta sonu biraz daha zaman ayırmayı planlıyorum ancak sonuçlarımın şu ana kadar pek iyi olmadığını bilmenizi isterim.

Have you tried the esc control circuit?

 

[Markillie]

yes, was using the e-bike style controller I purchased from Amazon (link shown above). The controller has hall sensor connection but description stated dual mode indicating it could run without hall sensors connected. But, not able to get it to run smoothly at all.

Going to try one more thing before throwing in the towel. Found a different controller on Amazon that is specifically for no hall brushless motors. It’s affordable so figured worth a try. Pretty long lead time so will be a while, but will post results once received.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0CFV6FJTT?psc=1&smid=A3V4B8JO0DSAZA&ref_=chk_typ_quicklook_imgToDp

 

[murat2371]

As explained here, I think they started it without a battery.

GitHub - yOyOeK1/hackqueedo: Alternative solution to use torqueedo outboard 100x and 50x.

Alternative solution to use torqueedo outboard 100x and 50x. - GitHub - yOyOeK1/hackqueedo: Alternative solution to use torqueedo outboard 100x and 50x.

github.com

 

[Markillie]

$17 controller worked like a charm.
Need to re-wire using the original wires but seems to work perfectly.

 

[munz]

$17 controller worked like a charm.
Need to re-wire using the original wires but seems to work perfectly.

Hi Mark,
Did that controller work out of the box for you? And at what voltage?

I ordered what appears to be the same controller off AliExpress and was unable to get it to drive my 1003 (an early one like post #1). The motor didn't turn and the board occasionally gave a locked rotor fault (4 quick flashes) at high throttle settings.