Until VESC is available - your ESC of choice?

[sl33py]

Hey all!

I've been lurking for a while and having trouble deciding on an ESC. Would love to get VESC, but seems like it may be a while? My SMD soldering skills suck or i'd build my own. Between the ESC and programmer - just a bit out of my skillset.

Target is 8s, but may want to setup 6s for my GF to ride slower w/ me (likely will have 2 boards setup). I'd like mine to be dual motors (i have 2 pairs/sets, one DIY 5065 200kv, other 6364 200kv), and "extra" board likely will be for her to ride with me.

I guess my criteria are this:

8s capable (at least for mine), but would love to stick with same ESC for swap/x-compatibility between boards. Otherwise hers 6s single motor likely.
slow speed friendly - it will only take one jerky start/crash and she'll likely never ride w/ me again. Smooth and easy is the key. I'd like to avoid having to kick start if she doesn't want to.
Good brakes and too much to ask for regen braking?

I've been looking at the following
APS 120a twin ESC (says 2-8s, but actually doesn't do 33.6, max is 32v - Bruno has been great!)
APS 150a twin ESC (might even go sensored if that would help? (and add a hall sensor))
DIY/Torqueboards 12a 120a HV Opto - Speaking with Dexter (super helpful!) my only concern is slow speed and "require an initial kick to run good. I'd recommend kicking off anyhow as it helps with balance ..." (I understand but honestly if it isn't smooth and she crashes i likely will lose my GF as a skate partner. Has to be fun and easy for her, she's not very adventurous to begin with.)

Others i'm considering -
CC Mamba XL2
Turnigy Trackstar 1/5th Scale Sensorless 200amp 8s Opto Car ESC

Not sure if the APS do regen braking, or any of the others actually? Dexter says his Torqueboards 120a does.

I'm ok adding some hall sensors if that will give me good slow speed. Wouldn't mind avoiding if possible just w/ it being another failure point and hard to protect w/ a bare motor(s).

Which ones would you recommend? Especially curious how it works given the above criteria.

Thx for help pointing me in the right direction!

Rob

 

[torqueboards]

All of these boards require a kickoff. Aps and or my escs. Vesc doesn't but that's because it's just awesomely made by Ben. You need a sensored motor to start up from a stop and/or vesc.

Not sure what you mean by slow speed but slow speed isn't defined by the esc but the setup.

My current board is ridiculously fast and I actually need to change the gearing for more torque.

 

[erwincoumans]

I have the VESC and although it does start from zero, there is a little 'jitter' before moving smoothly (using sensorless), so a small kickoff works better with VESC.

So I recommend using sensors, or just buy a Boosted Board for your GF and be done with it, it is low maintenance and very well done.

 

[sl33py]

Thanks for clarifying! My concern is she comes to a stop (or almost a stop) and then tries to go again. I saw a video of a *really* jerky low speed (not just from stop) e-skateboard that she'd fall off of and exactly what i'm trying to avoid.

Just trying to find some middle ground we can do together. She won't skydive, or paraglide, rarely scuba (blue water), or is afraid to go over 35mph on motorcycle... So less and less we can do together as i do all of those. Just trying to make sure i build something she can ride with me.

If my only options are a sensored motor/esc - that might be the way to go.

What sensored ESC do you guys recommend? I saw a kit to add a hall sensor to motors by diameter - looks like something i could do. Wish i had a cover to protect it, but c'est la vie!

Wish the VESC was ready!!

Thx Torque!

Rob

 

[sl33py]

I have the VESC and although it does start from zero, there is a little 'jitter' before moving smoothly (using sensorless), so a small kickoff works better with VESC.

So I recommend using sensors, or just buy a Boosted Board for your GF and be done with it, it is low maintenance and very well done.

Thanks Erwin! Didn't know that about the VESC and "jitter". Maybe my expectations are too high... I'll keep digging. My hobbies are $ enough which was why trying to do DIY and save $ (plus have fun building it myself). I might get a Marbel board and build the second as a DIY, let her ride the marbel when together.

So if kicking off is a moot point now - which ESC do you guys/gals run and recommend?

8s and regen braking?

 

[torqueboards]

Well vesc will cog if you don't give it voltage but if you give it enough voltage it should pull you out and run similar to a sensored setup.

You can use vesc and run a sensored setup. Sensored option can add more points of failure in the long run.

 

[onloop]

i wouldn't necessarily use the word 'jitter' or 'cog' to explain the behaviour of the vesc when its trying to start from stationary.

i think it is better to say 'pulsing' because i believe that is what it is doing (i think*), it is pulsing the motor with power to get slight rotor movement/rotation so it can detect position and allow continuous rotor motion/revolutions to occur.

but simply getting some forward movement and it is not a problem.

*i am sure ben could explain this in more technical terms, or perhaps it his secret.

VESC is 99% ready, shipping early may.

 

[torqueboards]

If you pulse it with not enough voltage it would cog on start up. Vesc is awesome though. It's something you just have to try. Check out Bens videos it explains everything.

 

[LEVer]

OP, two words...brushed motors.

 

[psychotiller]

I like the EZrun pro (6s) and the XL2 (8s)
I think I'll eventually invest in the VESC, but take note that I can start from a standstill on my EZrun 6s.

 

[sl33py]

Thanks all.

As for brushed comment - no thanks, but i understand what you are saying. I could push with my feet if i wanted, but hey i'm a geek and electric just ROCKS.

So it seems like 3 options - VESC ("soon"), XL2 (spendy - regen braking available for those who run one? and low speed decent?), and Torqueboards (has regen).

Want VESC, but nobody has them. Tempted to see just how bad my SMD soldering skills are... A bit of configuring and this really seems like a sweeeeet setup. Wish he'd move his components to one side for a simple heatsink (I know he doesn't think it needs one - but heat=death for electronics, so i'd heatsink it anyway).

Appreciate the input and thanks for all the help!

Rob

 

[sl33py]

I like the EZrun pro (6s) and the XL2 (8s)
I think I'll eventually invest in the VESC, but take note that I can start from a standstill on my EZrun 6s.

make that 4 -sorry missed that psyhotiller. will go look at the EZrun 6s. Did you have to use a programming card - what settings?

Rob

 

[simonjook]

I second liking the EZRun Pro 150A though I've been happily using the Hobbyking HK150As. The HKs aren't as good as the EZRuns but are far less painful than the APS ESCs. Apart from the APS ones not being as smooth as the HKs dealing with Bruno is painful because his documentation is non existent (even for himself) and he can never even tell which firmware version has which features. Sure he is friendly and helpful as a personality but he often falls short on good support because finding a feature involves trying every firmware yourself until it works as you expect ... because he cannot tell you which feature and which bugs are in each version.

With the APS I find updates are unreliable, programming is unreliable, braking is pitiful, the ESCs tend to misbehave and the 8S version (early one not sure if it has changed) isn't really even an 8S. If your LiPos are full it reads them as over voltage so it's more like a 7.8S. I used APS motors with the APS ESC and to be honest some issues may also be motor related because I have found they aren't very mechanically durable either ... sadly the cheap SK3s are proving much more durable and smoother.

With the HKs the performance has been reliable, acceleration/braking is powerful, smooth and consistent.... but not as beautifully smooth as the EZRun and I can't start without a kick on the HK even running dual motor, dual ESC setup. This experience is almost exclusively using SK3s and I find the NTMs not as friendly with the HKs.

I am also very interested in the VESC but if Vedder doesn't get himself organised with testing and docs both his changes and version features it will turn into the same nightmare the APS ESCs are.

 

[bandaro]

I made the call a months or three ago to get a FVT esc, because the VESC wasn't yet proven well enough in my mind to warrant the price, and I was on a tight budget. I wanted something that I could plug in and go. Not saying the VESC wouldn't have been as good in the long run, I just saw the FVT as a more 'proven' option.

I do however see myself turning to a VSC maybe at the end of the year, if I decide to go a higher voltage setup on hub motors. In the long run it's more expensive I know, but it let me get a board running cheaply, and 6s is more than capable to get you going fast efficiently. If I can pick up some larger contracts or get myself as the 'go-to designer' for a local company I'm working with I might be getting one sooner rather than later, they are close but not quite there yet.

 

[BadWolf]

I agree with Bandaro, the FVT 120A is really great.
It's really small, runs cool (even with the fan removed), doesn't make that screeching noise when breaking like some other ESCs and it's really cheap as well.

 

[sl33py]

I second liking the EZRun Pro 150A though I've been happily using the Hobbyking HK150As. The HKs aren't as good as the EZRuns but are far less painful than the APS ESCs. Apart from the APS ones not being as smooth as the HKs dealing with Bruno is painful because his documentation is non existent (even for himself) and he can never even tell which firmware version has which features. Sure he is friendly and helpful as a personality but he often falls short on good support because finding a feature involves trying every firmware yourself until it works as you expect ... because he cannot tell you which feature and which bugs are in each version.

With the APS I find updates are unreliable, programming is unreliable, braking is pitiful, the ESCs tend to misbehave and the 8S version (early one not sure if it has changed) isn't really even an 8S. If your LiPos are full it reads them as over voltage so it's more like a 7.8S. I used APS motors with the APS ESC and to be honest some issues may also be motor related because I have found they aren't very mechanically durable either ... sadly the cheap SK3s are proving much more durable and smoother.

With the HKs the performance has been reliable, acceleration/braking is powerful, smooth and consistent.... but not as beautifully smooth as the EZRun and I can't start without a kick on the HK even running dual motor, dual ESC setup. This experience is almost exclusively using SK3s and I find the NTMs not as friendly with the HKs.

I am also very interested in the VESC but if Vedder doesn't get himself organised with testing and docs both his changes and version features it will turn into the same nightmare the APS ESCs are.

Have been busy and didn't see your comments, so catching up.

I originally ordered the dual "8s" APS ESC. A horrendous experience. Bruno finally made it right, but he was extremely difficult dealing with and just left a bad taste in my mouth. As soon as i learned it wouldn't truly do 8s (but still was being sold as 8s), i asked to return it (unused, unopened). He made me re-provide details and info he should already have and just extra hoops to jump through, so it took over a month to sort out and refund. The final comment that i'm being "childish" was just icing on the cake and i'll never buy from him again. I did finally get him to change the description to 7s, as this is truly the limit of the ESC. Small victories...

I've briefly tried an XL2 and the brakes are pathetic... I originally tried 50%, then 75%, and since swapped it out. I'll test it at 100% (just hope to avoid a sudden flying "get off" brake event) - with pads and wrist guards next. I'm planning on building some "spare" boards for my brother and his kid to use so we can ride together, so it'll get used i imagine. If not, i'll find an RC car use for it i'm sure.

I just finished soldering the wires and cap on one of Vedder's VESC's. Simply amazing in comparison. I need to update the firmware, but did the motor config and setup per his instructions (not the clearest, but it's totally doable if you are moderately technical). They need to be re-done w/ the OSX and Windows BLDC tools available now. I built an Ubuntu 15.04 laptop to do this (old and slow one i had spare). Following his steps i had issues with the udev step and never got the programmer working. BUT (luckily?) it seems like that functionality (flashing firmware) is now built into the latest BLDC tool he's released. Still some gotchas, but having Vedder respond to my configuration issue (throttle) was just cool he gives us so much of his time. Not only building/creating the VESC, but checking in and providing support. He's my hero currently.

 

[sl33py]

I agree with Bandaro, the FVT 120A is really great.
It's really small, runs cool (even with the fan removed), doesn't make that screeching noise when breaking like some other ESCs and it's really cheap as well.

With my plan to have a spare board or two, i also grabbed an XERUN 120a, which looks like it's the same as the FVT. Not tried it quite yet, so i'm encouraged that the FVT works so well!

How are the brakes? did you need a programmer to configure it to work well?

 

[torqueboards]

DIY/Torqueboards 12a 120a HV Opto - Speaking with Dexter (super helpful!) my only concern is slow speed and "require an initial kick to run good. I'd recommend kicking off anyhow as it helps with balance ..." (I understand but honestly if it isn't smooth and she crashes i likely will lose my GF as a skate partner. Has to be fun and easy for her, she's not very adventurous to begin with.)

Rob

Rob - Sensored motors and sensored ESCs next month. Sensored ESCs are being shipped out yesterday and motors should be done within a week and shipped out.

No kicking needed anymore

I decided to upgrade all the products at the same price point. You can either use sensored or not use sensored.

You can use 15mm wide belts which is a lot more stable and solid than 9mm although more drag. I custom made a longer motor shaft to fit the entire 15mm with keyways.

 

[sl33py]

DIY/Torqueboards 12a 120a HV Opto - Speaking with Dexter (super helpful!) my only concern is slow speed and "require an initial kick to run good. I'd recommend kicking off anyhow as it helps with balance ..." (I understand but honestly if it isn't smooth and she crashes i likely will lose my GF as a skate partner. Has to be fun and easy for her, she's not very adventurous to begin with.)

Rob

Rob - Sensored motors and sensored ESCs next month. Sensored ESCs are being shipped out yesterday and motors should be done within a week and shipped out.

No kicking needed anymore

I decided to upgrade all the products at the same price point. You can either use sensored or not use sensored.

You can use 15mm wide belts which is a lot more stable and solid than 9mm although more drag. I custom made a longer motor shaft to fit the entire 15mm with keyways.

Thanks Dexter! I might hit you up for one of the sensored setups! I did bite the bullet and order a Marbel board... Figure that will be good for her and of course i'll ride it too. So looking forward to comparing it to a home build board (single like now on my "beta" board - really should be "alpha" cause it's pretty fugly...), and the eventual dual motor board i'm still planning.

Gotta say your 5065 motor is *really* nice. The keyway didn't need any sanding to fit, you gave me an extra/spare key which fit perfectly, and the motor build quality is great! Kudos for quality gear!

 

[BadWolf]

With my plan to have a spare board or two, i also grabbed an XERUN 120a, which looks like it's the same as the FVT. Not tried it quite yet, so i'm encouraged that the FVT works so well!
How are the brakes? did you need a programmer to configure it to work well?

The FVT 120A runs great out of the box on a e-skateboard/longboard, so no programmer is really needed. I did however get a programmer after buying my 3rd FVT to change the motor timing to high but it only improved it a small amount to the already great and stable performance. I'm not saying it's the best on the market, but it's an excellent option and one you should definitely try out.

Just a warning, don't buy it from SDS Hobby. Ordered one but never received it or any compensation. I know that APS and RC Jucie has it in stock most of the times though..

 

[torqueboards]

Marbel should be great I think.. Although, the following should have been done.

They claim and seem to be a high quality company making them here in the USA but why would you add in NON USA Trucks and Wheels?

They should of added a second motor - why wouldn't you for a top of the line board? They should of used Caliber Trucks and Kegel wheels.

The difference is slim to none for wheels and trucks about $50-$60 bucks...instead let's get China trucks and China wheels but everything else is made in USA? I don't get that...

I also don't see how they say a 50mm single motor is going to climb up hills at 20mph and brake going down as well as 25mph top speed.
They do mention 16 mile range in ECO mode but I'm pretty sure that's more like 8-10 miles in regular riding.

Anyhow, I'm still excited to see how it comes. Most definitely, post some photos

 

[lizard]

Others i'm considering -
CC Mamba XL2
Turnigy Trackstar 1/5th Scale Sensorless 200amp 8s Opto Car ESC

Stay away from those. They Castle XL2's are not reliable, they even burn when used in a light R/C car. Way too many reports on R/C forums that they burn or fail, even the newer ones. The Turnigy Trackstar is just a copy of the XL, so it will likely have the same issues.

In general, the castle ESCs have problems with cogging when trying to accelerate from standstill when used with high gearing and/or high load (which a skateboard with driver is).