What do you think will be the next major hub motor release by ebikes.ca?

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What do you think will be the next major hub motor release by ebikes.ca?

I think a rear hub based on the following 45mm stator Marine design would probably come fairly soon:

https://ebikes.ca/grinhub-sfst.html

Looking forward to dual splined torque arms and the ability to fit different axle diameters like we see on the Grin front hub.

Current Kv is 21, so it will need a slower winding if the plan to keep within typically ebike speeds with 36 volts or higher.

A lower Kv will lower rpm per volt but increase torque per amp.
 

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It won't be a direct drive, he seems more interested in small light geared hub motors and the question is what feature will his new collaboration or strictly grintech motor be. From others we've already gotten curved magnets, double set of sense wires.

Weight reduction with the backing metal or the spoke flanges which originated from grintech along with through axle and torque arm attachment methods.

Maybe thinner laminations but that MAY bring in other problems, a new type or concoction of steel alloys.

If you want a slower kv he just tied the phases in a different config to get different kv in his sailboat. Different axle diameters is just a matter to some degree of adapters which is already out there but I am old school so I go with qr's, new age fanboyism isnt my gag.

ebike4healthandfitness said:
What do you think will be the next major hub motor release by ebikes.ca?

I think a rear hub based on the following 45mm stator design would probably come fairly soon:

https://ebikes.ca/grinhub-sfst.html

Looking forward to dual splined torque arms and the ability to fit different axle diameters like we see on the Grin front hub.

Current Kv is 21, so it will need a slower winding if the plan to keep within typically ebike speeds with 36 volts or higher.

A lower Kv will lower rpm per volt but increase torque per amp.
 
calab said:
It won't be a direct drive, he seems more interested in small light geared hub motors and the question is what feature will his new collaboration or strictly grintech motor be. From others we've already gotten curved magnets, double set of sense wires.

Weight reduction with the backing metal or the spoke flanges which originated from grintech along with through axle and torque arm attachment methods.

Maybe thinner laminations but that MAY bring in other problems, a new type or concoction of steel alloys.

If you want a slower kv he just tied the phases in a different config to get different kv in his sailboat. Different axle diameters is just a matter to some degree of adapters which is already out there but I am old school so I go with qr's, new age fanboyism isnt my gag.

ebike4healthandfitness said:
What do you think will be the next major hub motor release by ebikes.ca?

I think a rear hub based on the following 45mm stator design would probably come fairly soon:

https://ebikes.ca/grinhub-sfst.html

Looking forward to dual splined torque arms and the ability to fit different axle diameters like we see on the Grin front hub.

Current Kv is 21, so it will need a slower winding if the plan to keep within typically ebike speeds with 36 volts or higher.

A lower Kv will lower rpm per volt but increase torque per amp.

Greater gear reduction? Perhaps combined with thinner laminations and field weakening?

I got a great result in the simulator comparing a MAC 6T with 2:1 reduction vs. MAC 12T:

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=109778
 
But what will make money?

ebike4healthandfitness said:
Greater gear reduction? Perhaps combined with thinner laminations and field weakening?

I got a great result in the simulator comparing a MAC 6T with 2:1 reduction vs. MAC 12T:

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=109778
 
calab said:
But what will make money?

ebike4healthandfitness said:
Greater gear reduction? Perhaps combined with thinner laminations and field weakening?

I got a great result in the simulator comparing a MAC 6T with 2:1 reduction vs. MAC 12T:

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=109778

I have no idea, but apparently wheelbarrow motors are popular so an extra 2:1 reduction could lower the Kv of the MAC 12T to 3.55 . This would be good for wheelbarrow motor.
Then there could be a 6T using that same internal reduction to take over for the old 12T and faster winds like a 4T taking over for the old 8T.

Basically by increasing the internal reduction MAC has a greater breadth of applications for its motor.

(Don’t forget a hypothetical MAC 3T with extra 2:1 internal reduction could also replace the current 6T)
 
Yeah because bobcats are sometimes to wide to fit between fence posts and they are to expensive to rent or buy. Those wheel barrow motors are probably a quick easy flip or modification to an existing hub motor, is that the case with gear reduction?
I thought the macs came from 4T to 18T, did you contact the company that makes the mac motors?
http://www.macmotortech.com/
https://mac.en.alibaba.com/

ebike4healthandfitness said:
I have no idea, but apparently wheelbarrow motors are popular so an extra 2:1 reduction could lower the Kv of the MAC 12T to 3.55 . This would be good for wheelbarrow motor.
Then there could be a 6T using that same internal reduction to take over for the old 12T and faster winds like a 4T taking over for the old 8T.
 
calab said:
Those wheel barrow motors are probably a quick easy flip or modification to an existing hub motor, is that the case with gear reduction?

Not sure how difficult adding an extra 2:1 gear reduction would be on the MAC....but here is the video from showing how the Bafang wheel barrow motor (Kv 3.1) was made:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=up-tnPZMTPk

(It is a G310/G311 motor with an extra 3:1 internal reduction added)
 
I was being facetious, given that there is a set amount of room for the gears and making gears is expensive it probably won't happen because you just rewind the motor from 3t or even 2t if possible, to 18t. I actually do remember seeing mac motors on alibaba that you could choose 4-18t, but it was a reseller so it could of been a lie.

There always seems to be a lot going on over there in hippie vancouver land.

From the landing pages at https://ebikes.ca/
SX1 vs G311?

In the meantime, we are extremely happy with the state of our two smaller geared motor systems, the G311/G310 from Bafang and the SX1/SX2 from Shengyi. They both really shine in the low to medium assist levels and our recent updates with the dual speed/temperature sensor has eliminated the overheating risk. We made a little comparison video to help highlight the differences and similarities between these hubs and help you decide!

As has been widely discussed, 2021 is proving to be an exceedingly difficult year to navigate in the manufacturing industry. Oversease shipping costs have tripled, lead times on most ebike part orders have gone from 8-12 weeks to more like 8-12 months, if we can get them at all. We've been working exceedingly hard navigating this situation, finding alternative suppliers and backup plans to ensure we continue having items available for customers interested in DIY ebike builds.


Wheelbarrow motor and Kit

Turn your Wheelbarrow into an e-barrow!After the unexpected success of our initial order of geared wheelbarrow motors, we now have a fresh supply this time with the 16" wheelbarrow tires already installed to facilitate use of this hub in custom low speed and high torque projects.

Marine Conversion Drive

The future of boating is electric tooWe're also making great headway in our development of a custom high-RPM hub motor for direct drive in sailboats with inboard engines, and are taking this from our proof-of-concept into a commercial project this summer.<

For those interested, we have a sign-up sheet and are sending out update emails to keep in the loop of our rollout plans and participate in this pilot. Here's the latest video update showing the power of this hub right up to 5kW, and we have an even larger motor model that will do 8kW:


dapter for Bosch Batteries

We've also got an initial batch of custom XLR->Bosch adapter cables made up to charge Bosch battery systems using our Satiator charger. This is one of the most often requested adapters and we're glad to finally have a solution.

Charge your Bosch Ebike at up to 6 Amps, and to 85% Partial Charge

The overmolded plug includes built-in electronics with a 42.5V cutoff as an extra safety against accidental use with a higher voltage charge profile, and we're looking forward to feedback from early adapters before we produce them in bulk.
 
ebike4healthandfitness said:
What do you think will be the next major hub motor release by ebikes.ca?
I don't know what it will be, but I'd love to see a small geared motor with an EM clutch that disengages the motor completely. That way you can remove the battery and have (effectively) a regular bike with an extra few pounds in the hub.
 
calab said:
it probably won't happen because you just rewind the motor from 3t or even 2t if possible, to 18t. I actually do remember seeing mac motors on alibaba that you could choose 4-18t, but it was a reseller so it could of been a lie.

A comparison between the Bafang wheelbarrow motor and the MAC rewound to 18T:

https://ebikes.ca/tools/simulator.html?motor=MMAC12T&cont=BRL10&hp=0&axis=mph&wheel=16i&batt=B36LiGox2&cont_b=BRZ9&motor_b=MG311_WB&batt_b=B36LiGox2&wheel_b=16i&hp_b=0&bopen=true&kv=5.093

(Fixed broken link and changed controller on Bafang wheelbarrow motor to Baserunner z9 cold from Baserunner L10 cold which hurt power of the wheelbarrow motor by a good amount)
 
ebike4healthandfitness said:
A comparison between the Bafang wheelbarrow motor and the MAC rewound to 18T:

That's no good. Unless you know the number of wire strands that will fit in the MAC's stator slots, you have no way of knowing whether the copper fill will be comparable.
 
Maybe an IPM (Interior Permanent Magnet) hub motor to replace an SPM (Surface Permanent Magnet) inrunner design like the Bafang G310/311 which is also used in the Bafang wheel barrow motor?

(Note: Bafang wheel barrow motor applies an additional 2.8:1 reduction beyond the G310/G311's 11:1 reduction to yield a final reduction of 30:1)

Some info on IPM motors:

https://www.automate.org/industry-insights/interior-permanent-magnet-motors-power-traction-motor-applications

Perhaps the biggest advantage of IPM designs, one that gives them an edge in vehicle applications like traction motors, is the high-speed performance. The power versus speed curve for SPM motors is roughly hyperbolic, rising to a region of quasi-constant power over a narrow speed range, then falling off.

IPM motors, in contrast, provide a much broader region of more or less consistent torque. Using a technique called field weakening, designers can apply current to modify performance. As speed rises, the permanent magnets and motor generate highers voltage. At very high speeds, the back EMF of the motor times the speed can exceed the voltage of the battery, which limits drive current, and torque. Field weakening essentially involves tuning the magnetic field of the stator to partially oppose the effect of the permanent magnets. The process involves a control scheme known as direct (D) and quadrature (Q) axis current control. The D-axis runs through the center of the rotor pole while the Q-axis lies between two adjacent rotor poles in the center. “By breaking the stator vector into two vectors, and applying one current to the quadrature axis and one to the direct axis, they control the current phase angle between them, which allows much wider constant power control," explains motor designer and IEEE fellow Jim Hendershot, co-author of Permanent Magnet Brushless Motors and Generator Design.

For vehicle applications, the technique provides big benefits compared to SPM motors. “The IPM configuration allows more control over the magnetization of the magnetic circuit," says Hendershot.

That's not to say that field weakening isn't possible with SPM designs, as well, but because of the size of the air gap, the technique requires far higher currents. “Because of the current limit of the inverter on thermal limitations of the motor, you can't field weaken it enough to produce torque at high speeds," says Fulton.

At low speeds, SPM motor and an IPM motor of the same size can generally produce about the same amount torque, or the SPM design may even produce a bit more up until they reach the corner point RPM. At speeds higher than the corner-point RPM, torque from SPM designs drops rapidly. “If both of them have a base of 3000 RPM, the SPM motor will probably have zero torque at 5000 RPM whereas the IPM could continue on to 10,000 or 12,000 RPM," says Fulton. The behavior makes IPM motors a good fit for traction motor applications, which tend to demand high torque over a broad speed range. “With IPM designs you get the best of both worlds—you can get very good acceleration at low speeds and then run at very high speeds while at almost the same power level.

https://www.nidec.com/en/technology/motor/glossary/000/0040/

A type of motor that has a rotor embedded with permanent magnets is called the IPM (interior permanent magnet) type. Compared with the SPM (surface permanent magnet), this type of motor can reduce the risk of a magnet being peeled off by centrifugal force, and take advantage of reluctance torque. The IPM type allows various structures for embedding permanent magnets.

Some commentary in the link below from Grin on how the Bafang G310/311 magnets can come loose at higher rpm. This due to it being an inrunner design using surface permanent magnets:

https://ebikes.ca/product-info/grin-kits/bafang-g310-g311.html (Scroll down to "Loose magnets from fast rpm")

][b said:
Another limitation on these hubs is (being an inunner) they rely on magnet adhesives to hold the magnets on the rotor[/b]. If the motor ends up spinning too fast, especially when it is hot and the adhesive strength is reduced, then the centrifugal forces can cause the magnet to lift off the rotor and scrape against the stator. This results is a sudden loud raspy sound from the engine which goes away once the motor speed is reduced. If the motor is allowed to run for a length of time with the magnet scraping like this, it will overheat and demagnetize the loose magnet. Otherwise if it's caught early enough then the magnet can be glued back to the stator to no ill effect.

On our first samples of G310 motors we were able to run the hubs at 450 rpm continuously without any issues. However, on our first large sea shipment in 2018 we were experiencing cases of magnets coming loose as low as 300 rpm, or 40 kph in a typical ebike. On that run we ended up opening and regluing the magnets ourselves using a high temperature rated thermally cured epoxy adhesive which was a lot of work. Bafang has improved this situation with our current 2019 shipment but it's still not as good as the magnets that we glue ourselves. The stock motors can be used up to 350 rpm, equivalent to the standard wind motor at 48V or a fast wind at 36V. If the motor will be used in a faster application (with 52V batteries or with fast windings in smaller wheel sizes) then we offer a reglued magnet option that will work up to 500 rpm. 2021 Update: All of our 8T fast wind G310/G311 motors come stock with a special magnet adhesive that is immune to this problem.

Diagram below showing the difference in magnet placement between SPM and IPM on an inrunner motor rotor:
 

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What do you think will be the next major hub motor release by ebikes.ca?

I think a rear hub based on the following 45mm stator Marine design would probably come fairly soon:


Looking forward to dual splined torque arms and the ability to fit different axle diameters like we see on the Grin front hub.

Current Kv is 21, so it will need a slower winding if the plan to keep within typically ebike speeds with 36 volts or higher.

A lower Kv will lower rpm per volt but increase torque per amp.

Sorry but the torque per amp will be the same if you are talking about Power. The faster turning motor will require more phase amps per ft lb but that is a controller limitation and not equivalent to "amps" from the battery. Changing the Kv will only change the speed that the motor turns per volt. There are very minor differences due to internal losses but for the most part those can be ignored for this conversation.

The GMAC is an awesome motor and will out accelerate anything in the drop down menu of the Grin Tech Motor Simulator given equivalent power inputs. A geared hub motor like the GMAC can have over heating issues if you push it where a Direct Drive motor is easier to keep cool.

Supposedly Bafang changed the adhesive on the G310/311 and the problem of losing the magnets has been fixed.

The Shengyi (Sp-?) that Grin Tech sells an out runner so no problem losing magnets?

I'd like to see Grin Tech carry/sell the Crystalyte H+ 55 series of motors...Direct Drive, 135mm dropouts and a 55mm stator. I plan to send Grin Tech a message suggesting it and if others feel the same way, join me with your own emails.
 
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Grin announced in a recent Winter newsletter that they're working on a rear version of the All Axle. I've been emailing them and they're looking at releasing this summer, although nothing is certain. See below:

"Rear Grin All-Axle Motor (with integrated PAS sensor)​

Yes, the wait is almost over. The rear version of our famous All-Axle Hub Motor has been through an extensive local pilot-test phase for the past several months and will soon be opening up to outside sales. This is compatible with 135mm quick release dropouts, as well as 142x12 and 148x12 thru axle dropouts. It has an integrated PAS sensor allowing you to cleanly build a PAS assist ebike with back-pedal regen, and no need for an external crank sensor."

A couple of notes I've gather from emails with Robbie and Hayley from Grin

1) No torque sensor yet. A torque sensor will be later since they want to develop their own in house torque sensing unit. Very excited about that one
2). 148x12 and 142x12 compatibility, but no superboost compatibility
 
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I've been waiting for the rear axle version of that motor for... i dunno how many years.

My stance on that matter:

shut-up-and-take-my-money-futurama.gif
 
Grin announced in a recent Winter newsletter that they're working on a rear version of the All Axle. I've been emailing them and they're looking at releasing this summer, although nothing is certain. See below:

"Rear Grin All-Axle Motor (with integrated PAS sensor)​

Yes, the wait is almost over. The rear version of our famous All-Axle Hub Motor has been through an extensive local pilot-test phase for the past several months and will soon be opening up to outside sales. This is compatible with 135mm quick release dropouts, as well as 142x12 and 148x12 thru axle dropouts. It has an integrated PAS sensor allowing you to cleanly build a PAS assist ebike with back-pedal regen, and no need for an external crank sensor."

A couple of notes I've gather from emails with Robbie and Hayley from Grin

1) No torque sensor yet. A torque sensor will be later since they want to develop their own in house torque sensing unit. Very excited about that one
2). 148x12 and 142x12 compatibility, but no superboost compatibility
Nice!
 
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