What would you sell?

[mvadventure]

Part of yesterday's errands included a stop at a solar energy store. We learned a lot about solar energy and its tremendous limitations for reducing our electric bill. Investment versus payback were totally out of the question for our purposes. Yet once it was decided we weren't going to be customers and the conversaton turned to other solar products we learned the dealer sold solar golf carts and we looked at what he had out in the warehouse.

He had two, one a very nice four seater that looked like a solar vehicle/almost a car and the other a regular golf cart looking thing. Both had flooded cell batteries and solar panels on the roof but the salesman admitted he knew next to nothing about the units and we would have to speak with the owner next week.

During the conversation however the saleman mentioned the owner had recently come back from a trip out to the west coast enthused about electric bicycles. The salesman knew NOTHING about them except they sounded silly to him with a very limited market. In less than five minutes I was able to change that attitude and wound up leaving my name and number for the owner to call me as a potential investor if he wanted to start something in that line.

So my question, one asked before but worth repeating: What brand/product would you sell if you had your own storefront? It seems to me the most viable would be an ebike designed from the ground up. The problem for me is that except for one or two of the Wally World models I don't think I've ever seen but one in person.
Mike

 

[deardancer3]

Trying to sell large solar energy systems for financial payback to urban dwellers is a tough sell. Especially in a credit strapped nation such as ours.

HOWEVER, Selling solar powered golf carts that can help when we have gasoline shortages, or can be used to power lights in the house when incoming electricity is out, or as a method to recharge ebikes without incoming AC, gives multiple purposes to the golf carts.

One might also consider Solar powered ovens, the new line of solar powered Air conditioners, and home energy audits.

As far as which ebike: see

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=6807

 

[mikereidis]

BionX is popular as a complete system.

But me, I'd sell my own packaged systems, with XLyte or perhaps Wilderness energy motors or whatever is good coming from China that year. I'd add controllers and other parts of my own choosing; XLyte is decent but a bit pricy, Infineon controllers are good for less.

I've decided I AM going into the ebike (and ecar etc) equipment business. I am looking to build micro-controllers for various purposes, including charging/battery management and Cycle Analyst type functionality.

I'm a "techie" and mostly just want to design, build and test (IE ride ! ) on my own schedule, so I'd be likely to use resellers to deal with customers.

 

[fechter]

That's a tough question.

I would agree that the BionX is one of the better available products in a reasonable price range.
You don't want to be dealing in something that has a high failure rate or you will be spending all your time dealing with problems.

There are incredibly few good options.

One approach is to find a fairly decent but cheap chinese product and give yourself enough profit margin to cover all the warranty issues, which may be significant.

Another option is to find decent components and assemble the bikes at the shop yourself. This could be quite labor instensive, but at least you can control quality. Ideally, you would want to find or have made a purpose built frame that has a provision for holding the batteries.

 

[mikereidis]

Another option is to find decent components and assemble the bikes at the shop yourself. This could be quite labor instensive, but at least you can control quality. Ideally, you would want to find or have made a purpose built frame that has a provision for holding the batteries.

If we are talking about something for the average person, and not high performance or custom bikes, then why not resell something like Shwinn Izip's for the budget conscious, and offer upgrade to decent batteries etc ? I see Canadian Tire has had the Izip on sale as low as $400 Canadian.

Or is an Izip just plain not good enough ? For the average joe or jane... What's the market ? Average person or performance/quality ?

 

[TylerDurden]

I'd sell the Izip line, or my own knockoff:

• With minor upgrades, they perform well enough for the masses
  They are easy to service
  Parts are cheap
  Additional upgrades are a channel of recurring business with existing customers

A dealer that can provide support should be able to outsell a big-box, if a service contract is a value-added option. Also consider the owners of big-box bikes will need local support too, which the conventional LBS may not care to handle.

 

[mikereidis]

Additional upgrades are a channel of recurring business with existing customers [/list]

A dealer that can provide support should be able to outsell a big-box, if a service contract is a value-added option. Also consider the owners of big-box bikes will need local support too, which the conventional LBS may not care to handle.

The cheap bikes have lead batteries, or maybe nickel. I think Cdn Tire has both for IZip.

Batteries will weaken and die, especially if abused or pushed. Batteries are an ongoing source of revenue potential.

 

[TylerDurden]

A better recurring revenue channel is the upgrades, IMO. I have yet to meet anyone who wants to go slower and get shorter range.
Not to mention all the accessories, bells, whistles, entertainment and security options.

Batteries are expected to perform for a season at worst. You can sell add-ons and add-more-ons all year.

 

[Lock]

I'd look at the product being sold in Europe, like these:
http://www.extraenergy.org/main.php?language=en&category=products&subcateg=102

`Round here "euro style" pedal bikes (whatever that means) have been enjoying some success in the last year or two...

ES ppl might not like the Euro performance specs (eg pedelec, 250w ) but I would expect the design, quality and reliability to be better than a lot of Ebikes that have been introduced to North America so far...
tks
Lock

 

[PedalingBiped]

I have thought of the Leasing angle and now with a $20 subsidy it could work.

Here in Seattle the city encourages local employers to cut back on car trips with incentives and penalties.
Employers offer bus passes and free parking for car poolers.

Bus passes are $54 to $81 a month.

You could pick up a big box bike, put a kit on it with SLA's and lease it for $30 or so per month.

$360/yr would pay back in a little over a year.

The employer could build a 'shack" in 2 or 3 parking stalls in the garage for the bikes to be lock up.

An employee could "upgrade" on their own and buy better batteries off you.

10 bikes here, 10 bikes there ......

 

[Zoot Katz]

My idea would be to lease or sell cargo bikes with maintenance contracts to local businesses looking for a green image.
Longtails, bakfeits, longjohns and cargo trikes offer lots of room for their advertising space.

 

[mikereidis]

My idea would be to lease or sell cargo bikes with maintenance contracts to local businesses looking for a green image.
Longtails, bakfeits, longjohns and cargo trikes offer lots of room for their advertising space.

Companies with large campuses (esp in warmer climates) may be potential customers for employees who have to maintain things all over. But larger companies might be less likely to deal with a small ebike supplier. Perhaps actual campuses at colleges; I worked at a university once and had to go all over for computer installations/maintenance and we could easily waste 10-15 minutes getting to a location just on a smallish single campus.

I keep thinking police departments should buy ebikes for patrolling parks etc. In some places they still use horses (my house in downtown Toronto was regularly passed by horse mounted cops in 1990s, and they left BIG messes regularly.

In Ontario, police have special rules that allow them to pilot Segways and other EVs anywhere they want. Sadly, women (and occasionally men too) are attacked and even killed (once every several years?) way too often on the bike paths at night here in "safe, law abiding" Ottawa, Canada. I think there SHOULD be some semi-regular police patrols of the bike paths on ebikes just for this reason.

 

[Rassy]

I was visiting a friend in Grants Pass (Oregon) and they had saved an article from the local paper featuring a guy that had designed an electric bike and had it built in China. I didn't have a chance to go see the bikes on that trip, but they actually look interesting:

http://medford.craigslist.org/bik/828435143.html

As you can see, his initial venture is to sell them on craigslist. The little town of Cave Junction is out in the boonies.

 

[Ypedal]

Right now.. oct 10 2008, i'd go with ezee.

The kits are refined enough that you won't spend nearly as much time fixing problems as you will dealing with clyte stuff.. ezee also makes complete bikes.

Contact Justin at ebikes.ca if you are really serious about it.

 

[mikereidis]

Right now.. oct 10 2008, i'd go with ezee.

The kits are refined enough that you won't spend nearly as much time fixing problems as you will dealing with clyte stuff.. ezee also makes complete bikes.

Contact Justin at ebikes.ca if you are really serious about it.

I think most of us self builders balk at the $1350 price for Ezee kit. I was considering one originally; seems nice.

Hey, I see ebikes has Nine Continents listed now: http://www.ebikes.ca/store/store_nc.php . Perhaps they would be better than XLyte as components in a "kit" to be sold. What are the issues with CLyte stuff that Ezee, BionX etc. have solved ?

Canadian Tire has some of their Shwinn IZips on sale again this week. I'm thinking of getting one to mess around with, but may wait for mid winter super discounts, esp. since I'm spending way too much lately...

 

[mvadventure]

The guy with the solar store never called me which means, I think, he doesn't want to add ebikes to his inventory or doesn't want an investor. What I've learned however simply from asking a simple question on this forum is that there are manufacturers with ready made bikes and kits other than Crystalyte that could probably provide product for a willling entrepreneur. I had no idea there were waterproorf hub motors out there, especially at reasonable prices.

Thanks to everyone for some enlightining posts.

Mike

 

[Lock]

Earlier I suggested pedelec product from the European market, so it's amusing to see another news post on ExtraEnergy.org:

http://www.extraenergy.org/main.php?language=en&category=&subcateg=&id=2174

`Coupla snips:
"Pedelecs and e-bikes reach the highest average price in the German bicycle trade. Customers pay for additional comfort and functions––a great chance for bicycle dealers."

"Pedelecs sell for highest average price
On September 4, 2008, the German bicycle dealer magazine SAZ published a research, which showed that people in Germany spend more money on pedelecs than on any other bicycle category. This statement means that the customer is really paying more money for the added value he gets from an electric bike compared to a regular bike (faster and more comfortable, riding uphill or against head wind with ease, carrying loads more easily). The average sales price for a pedelec in Germany is 1,685 Euros (last year it was 1,639 Euros). This is a little less than in Holland where a pedelec typically costs 2,000 Euros."


But never mind all that...

Broadening the original question to EVs, I'll suggest an accessory item that I can't find anywhere (yet) that hundreds of thousands of EVers want today.

This from a conversation yesterday with an "EVer" who buys and sells and repairs EVs quite a bit.

Tapping here about those mobility scoots!

They're all (almost all?) still driving SLA. And the fellow I talked with (neighbour actually) described any longer trips on his scoot (yes, he is trapped in one of these EVs also) in northern winters as his "nightmare".

What he doesn't have and that hadn't occured to him is an electric battery warmer that wires into the batteries themselves. So yah, they sap a little of the Ahs, but if the SLAs are better insulated and also kept warmer-ish... might be a great product.

There are already add-on foot warmers, EVen electric blankets to wrap legs.

So, a kit w/battery insulation material plus heater strip(s) to slip under the batteries. Proper temp-controlled on/off otta make the heaters automatic. Once installed they could just lay there year `round as they stay off unless low temp threshold is reached...

Easy to develop, cheap to make, huge market already , no competition (at first.)

What's wrong with this fast buck scenario? Cummon ES ppl. Somebody do this.

Yah, I'm probably missing something - the fatal flaw - so then somebody straighten me out
tks
Lock

 

[TylerDurden]

It's possible the mobility consumers will recognize the value of better batteries and suffer less from the lithium sticker-shock.

Down here, the mobility suppliers enjoy the benefits of private and public insurance which pay for many of the units sold. If replacement batteries are also payed for by insurers, they might put more lithium on the street than GM.

Thoughts?

 

[mvadventure]

Re the mobility scooters and electric wheelchair market for better batteries I can only speak of what I've observed. For the vast majority of the market the SLA's provide more than adequate range because of the nature of the rider and their requirements. I've had two family members in the past and one currently using mobilty scooters and none has needed more range and only my Father used his outdoors and then was able to go most anywhere he wanted on the two SLA's. The others never had the scooters outdoors and never came close to using battery capacity. Younger people in electric wheelchairs may provide a small market share but consideration needs to be taken that healthy young people in wheelchairs don't use electric ones. I talked to a fellow in the grocery store awhile back, he was pretty much a quadriplegic. We talked about his chair, it's range and speed and while he would like more speed and range he was the first to admit the potential danger of higher speeds could only be tragic. Even with his chair providing fantastic mobility he still needed someone with him. His range was adequate for current needs.
Mike

 

[TylerDurden]

Ja, south of the Mason-Dixon, there is less need for the lithium benefit of cold-weather operation.

 

[Lock]

Ya, thought about gov and health care monies. Always nice to sell to markets with this support (see $1,000 hammers bought by military etc <hehe>). Can cushion the sticker price as the specs usually call for Cadillac quality - or at least Cadillac prices

Nope. Not really thinking of the warmer climes. Just places like northern states and Europe. Last I checked 30% of Canucks live in the 700mi strip between Windsor/Detroit and Montreal. Southern Ontario and Quebec and I believe states like Nebraska etc get pretty chilly for part of the year...

I'll quiz my neighbour again about winters, but I believe many mobility scoot ppl do curtail their trips (groceries whatever) when things get bitter. Partly maybe only `cause the snow clearing can take some time to get the sidewalks cleaned up.

Pretty sure higher speeds were not a thought. (Perhaps especially when sidewalks have a light snow covering that might hide big holes whatever.) "Regular" summer ranges only needed.

Ya, lithium probably makes sense. The weight savings moving to Li isn't significant as all up weight of vehicle plus (often large) rider plus groceries... But good to go to minus freezing temps with much smaller performance (range) hit.

But the battery insulate/warmer *retrofit* kit if an inexpensive add-on and easy to install... Might profit on volumes...

Tks for the comebacks
Cheers
LoK

 

[Lock]

Man I love/hate talking w/the ppl in their mobility scoots.

The fact that they almost always know nothing about them I think maybe implies they are strong designs and very reliable.

But I also think ppl are already in this "EV Biz" and making Enron Profits(tm)

Heard this first time when one neighbour was "rescued" in the grocery store and they charged her to swap her lead for fresh, at three times what I knew I could buy her bats for locally. Hard to say what the value of "roadside service" is I guess. And knowing the old gal/rider, were the batts really due for a swap?

Caught up with my other mobility scoot neighbour today (the guy above that "...buys and sells and repairs EVs quite a bit"?)

He confirmed he really only wants his "summer range" in January, not a faster machine.

But he was also excited today to report that "they" had visited him and that he was in for a brand-new machine. Yay!

And he is moving to lithium! Yay!

A little faster top end speed at 18kph. Yay!

And no more chain! Yay!

...it has a new "direct-drive" motor with "hydrostatic" transmission. Yay!

And it will cost (not him but somebody else you-know-who) $10,000! Wow!

The more I talk to the guy the more I realize his EV fix-it work is maybe limited to swapping tires from dead ones to working ones or something... popping chains back on.

How to you make a $10,000 3-wheeler "standard-looking" mobility scoot? EVen WITH a lithium pack?

The guy is not "web-enabled"...

Left him promising to look up his new "Winner" brand machine. Curious what the drive system etc is...

After a google I'm pretty sure he is talking about the "Winner" style of "Fortress" brand scooter. The Fortresses "Made in Canada" for years. Common around here.

From Optiway Technology Inc. here in town.

`Cept Optiway got bought out years ago by movingpeople.net (Dutch)

And movingppl got bought out by Handicare (Norway)

Today Handicare is owned by the Andresen family of Norway now the Ferd Group. The Andresens family biz actually goes back to 1778 and a royal charter to sell ...tobacco. Ferd actually didn't fully get out of the tobaksfabrik biz until 2005.

What a biz plan! Sell`em cigs until they cough their lungs up, then sell them scoots when they can't walk any more! Dean Kamen really didn't think his Segway biz plan all the way through did he? <hehe>

Anyway. Getting OT.

How do I tell my excited neighbour that his new scoot isn't a $10,000 machine? (Web retail prices are sub-$5,000)

That it'll have gel SLAs and not lithium? That the only lithium in it is the grease?

(And do these machines even have some sort of hydrostatic transmissions? Some sort of CVT? All I've ever seen looked like DC motors w/gear boxes?)

And who is deceiving who? Gotta find out who "they" are... Are they REALLY billing some health plan for 2x retail prices?

Stay tuned...

Anywhooo, he is aware of the batt warmers sold for auto starter batts... They're 12v I/we believe. He said a pain to install/whatever. Not sure about that. Most/all mobility scoot traction is 24v AFAIK. Be nice if any batt heater was 24v and a direct hookup w/out any DC/DC.

Gawd, could probably sell these ppl a ton of add-on electric cigarette lighters too :x
tks
Lock

 

[Mathurin]

I would sell BionX systems out of a bike shop like nearly every bike shop around here does, don't want weird one-off stuff. I would pay attention to having utilitarian/commuting stuff in my shop, a variety of fenders, racks, lights, extracycles, rain wear, studded tires, etc.

 

[springsguy]

I love the Nine Continents system and recommend it for my Electric Push Trailer Plans......... www.ElectricBicycleTrailer.com