Why a 5000 Mile EV spells trouble

[Puppyjump]

Hi PuppyJump,
I've just read thru this entire thread and I have two questions for you.

1. Do you work for Zap in any way shape or form? Your posts smack a little bit too much of lame viral marketing to me.
2. Where do you get this $30,000 figure for the cost of the tesla batt? Ref please. I have not heard that it is anywhere near that expensive.

thanks,

Daniel Neumansky
Alameda CA

No, I get nothing from ZAP. The dealer even gave me business cards and said that if I refer a customer to them by signing my name on the card, and the customer gives the card to the dealer, then the dealer would give me $100 on the sale. I refuse to do this. I have gladly passed out flyers and cards to people who question me in parking lots, but not with my name on them.

I am not promoting ZAP for personal gain but rather refuting some of what I perceive to be inaccurate criticisms. All along, I have stated the limited application I demand from my ZAP of basically 8 miles distance to my job. In fact, I just posted a set of energy measurements I made on a post whereby I told a reply poster that he would not get his requested range of 50 to 75 miles from a ZAP unless he took very drastic measures.

http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=9430

It remains true that ZAP is, so far, the only off shelf solution to an EV for about $10K that goes faster than 25 MPH. I simply want people to know this because if they have limited demands like I do, then a ZAP can work for them, and more drivers who see the ZAP will become enlightened that EVs are beginning to be possible, though not from established legacy car companies for reasons I've posted elsewhere.

As to the question about the Tesla battery pack costing $30K, Here is what Wikipedia says:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_Roadster

"The Tesla Motors Club bulletin board estimated the 2007 ESS replacement cost at approximately $20,000; this cost is likely to decline in the future. Tesla Motors, in February 2009, stated more about the ESS including placing the current replacement cost at slightly under USD$36,000, an expected ESS life span of 7 years/100,000 mi (160,000 km), and began offering owners an option to pre-purchase a battery replacement for USD$12,000 today with the replacement to be delivered after seven years."

....So it looks like Tesla states the cost (ESS stands for Energy Sorage System, ie, a battery pack with BMS) is about $36K but they will sell you one in 7 years for $12K if you prepay right now.

The Tesla pack is made from 6,831 small cells about the size of a "AA" or "C" battery wired in series/parallel strings. It can't be very cheap to wire up this kind of pack considering the BMS that is probably wired up to such a pack. A cheaper alternative would be the Large Format 200 AH LiFePO4 cells all wired in a single series string. This may not have the instant amperage capacity a super sports car needs.

 

[Puppyjump]

Didn't the famous Wired Zap article talk about how Zap was paying a small army of bloggers to talk up their products and conversely their stock?

Maybe? If you click on his username, most of his post have been about e-bikes though, :?

I don't know if ZAP pays an army of bloggers. It's possible but I don't think so and I doubt they have the money to do so anyway. In fact I feel there is a chance the present economic crisis (I think we are basically in another Great Depression) may cause them to die since very few people can rely on a ZAP as a singe car, nor afford to buy one to supplement their gas car. I really could not afford to buy my ZAP, but I did anyway figuring you only live once (though the ZAP is so small that that one life could be shorter if a huge Honda Civic heads my way )

I post positive things (where merited) about my ZAP because I admit to being an electronics Nerd, and nothing is cooler to a Nerd than driving on electrons. Yes, I built an E-bike to make Pee Wee Herman envious...and you can see it on Youtube

Bike in prototype form:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hd6iQ402i_g&feature=channel

Bike in more refined form:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AdMAmjXD824&feature=channel

Exciting encounter with Police Helicopter
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uMIBzPuH5G4&feature=channel

...and my humble ZAP, but I've since removed my homemade tailgate signs because I think they gave the impression of being smug, and being smug is not a good way to present an EV to the public...after all, even Southpark did an episode about smug Prius Drivers....so I guess it's back to many drivers thinking my ZAP has a small underpowered gas engine...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R3An_kwgw68&feature=channel

While is debatable that ZAP has shill bloggers, I do feel it's almost certainly true that Deep Pocket Big Oil/Auto companies blog against EVs, including ZAP. You know, the lies that EVs are no good because they simply transfer pollution to a distant power company generator (they "forget" to mention that the amount of transferred pollution is much less than if the same car were powered by gas), or that EVs still need battery research, so Big Car can't build them yet....and that ZAP=CRAP. More likely they consider a ZAP 35-40 MPH EV for about $10K a threat. Especially if ZAP is still around when gas goes back up to $4.

Here is a good example of a well placed article by a PhD basically saying EV (and plug-in Hybrids suck).

http://www.hybridcars.com/plug-in-hybrids/battery-expert-doubt-plugin.html

The article is full of half truths and outright lies. Read all the replies. The biggest lie is:

"The life of either battery technology, nickel metal hydride or lithium ion, in the plug-in application is not known. There is a significant risk that its life will be shorter than that of conventional hybrid car batteries."

The Toyota RAV4, of course, proves NiMH is lasting more than 100K miles so far, and still going strong...

One does not get a doctorate degree and have access post an article on a major website nor brief the US Senate by being an ignorant fool. I propose that he well aware of the true facts and is giving misinformation intentionally and is certainly in the pockets of Big Oil, and/or the Big Auto that does not want to lose service revenue....but you decide for yourself.

 

[Puppyjump]

Hi PuppyJump,
I've just read thru this entire thread and I have two questions for you.

1. Do you work for Zap in any way shape or form? Your posts smack a little bit too much of lame viral marketing to me.

good point. he does seem to have a single-minded focus throughout the world on promoting Zap, contrary to all other evidence:

http://www.google.com/search?client=saf ... 8&oe=UTF-8

It's not that I am single minded focus on ZAP. It's single availability of a "cheap" EV, so far, being limited to ZAP. (Note that I don't consider a 25 MPH NEV to be a viable EV).

Dozens of nicely-speced EVs in the $20-$30K range are supposedly going to hit the market soon, but it's still a waiting game. I'd happily heap praise on a readily available EV if they were for sale (at a price you and I can afford). Notice I praised the Toyota Rav4, but as we all know they were discontinued in 2003.

In any event, here is a website I found of another ZAP owner who says many of the same things that I do although I think he goes a little overboard on some of his statements like: "The people who write most of negative "articles" you see on the net are simply spoilers who fancy themselves as car experts. It makes them feel important if they can "save you" from buying an Xebra. "

I think most Xebra detractors own stock or work for the Oil companies or Big Auto, while a few of them have simply only read the negative reviews, like one poster here who read the ZAP Xebra only goes 25 MPH.

http://www.xebraworld.com/

 

[neoender]

Yes a move to EV will put alot of businesses out of business but the conversion to EV if it happens will be a very gradual process over 30+ years. Its not like all manufacture of ICE vehicles will stop instantly and all ICE vehicles will disappear overnight and suddenly be replaced by EV. These businesses will slowly fade out over time.

 

[Puppyjump]

Yes a move to EV will put alot of businesses out of business but the conversion to EV if it happens will be a very gradual process over 30+ years. Its not like all manufacture of ICE vehicles will stop instantly and all ICE vehicles will disappear overnight and suddenly be replaced by EV. These businesses will slowly fade out over time.

I don't know. 30 years? Maybe. But the EV move, and consequences from it, could be quicker. I can certainly see the scenario that if a roadworthy EV showed up at the auto dealer, at an affordable price, sales of the ICE cars could practically stall. One EV test drive would do it. I can predict that by having owned a ZAP. Even as crude as it is, it showed me EV is superior to ICE because I can extrapolate from the ZAP what a "real" EV would be like (not that the ZAP is a bad choice if you have a very short city commute). A highway speed family sized EV with "only" a 100 mile range is suitable for almost all of us provided it can be plugged in each night. Just imagine an EV with that Stanford battery though...10 times the range....

It's true that even if zero ICE cars were sold after the arrival of EV's, the existing fleet of ICE vehicles will remain for a long time: 10, 20, or 30 years before they wear out and get scrapped. But, here is a possible problem: Once an EV makes it into your driveway, there is a chance that your ICE car will see much less use. This means fewer ICE repairs as a function of calender time and a consequential reduction of cars at the repair shop at any given time.
I almost never use my ICE car now that I have an EV, and it's only a ZAP.

 

[miro13car]

What I don't like about Alberta?
Calgary is one of few cities in Canada which doesn't alow ebikes on its bikepaths.
Those noise-loving idiots driving with illigal mufflers with disregard to all of other residents.
Acoording to Highway Traffic Act illigal for sure.
Police gave up .
tHE WORST OF all HD motor bikes, really scruge.
Factory does everthing to make quiet cars pleasure to drive for NORMAL people.
Otherwise beautiful land, most wonderful Summers in all Canada.
BTW why sombody"loving" ICE would even post on forum like this?

MC

 

[Instant Karma]

The smell of Ozone created by plasma is foul and burns your nose.

The smell of sweet sweet Methonal and rubber at the dragstrip, ahh, the most delightfully intoxicating aroma on earth. Somedays I would pay the $40 track admission price just for one deep breath of it.


For me, I love building racing engines, and tuning engines. I do all my own work on cars, and I enjoy it. However, I will drive anything that wins races. If somebody makes an 11second car electric car that I can beat the piss out of for 100miles or so of ultra-agressive driving, I would buy it. If it can't do that, it's not a real replacement for the cars in my stable. The Tesla is a far cry from it. However, if a 10x increase in energy density and "C" rating happened, a real ICE replacement sportcar could happen, and I would buy it.

There is no doubt some kind of methanol high at the start of an open wheel auto race when they all head down the straightaway and the sound, vibrations and aroma of the fuel hits you all at once. Just for that it's worth going to a race, I know Indy cars switched to Ethanol made in Brazil, from Methanol a couple years ago so I wonder if the smell is similar to Methanol. Guess i'll have to go to a race and smell for myself. And regular ICE cars all run on methanol would be pretty nice in a traffic jam.