Wilderness Energy BL -36 Stopped Working

[silentguy]

Hi, I'm new here on Endless-sphere, but have posted on V is for Voltage forum before.

I am going to recycle my thread here, as it seems there is more response and action here, and I recognize a few of the posters.

My problem and pics to follow :

Was running WE BL-36 at 61 volts overvolted.

I think I have the 50Amp controller.

The Current draw on the Watt's UP meter, only showed 23 Amps.

Had been running fine.

I was stopped still, at red light.

Went to accelerate, and the front wheel fell off, I think the bolts had come loose.

It might have been that I didnt' pedal, and only used throttle,
or the wheel might have just come loose on it's own.

I put everyting back together, the wires seemed fine going to the motor.

Now the motor makes funny sounds, and doesnt draw as much currrent.

The Watt's Up meter, shows it only draws about 1 to 2 AMPS now,
before it was anything up to 20Amps, but usually just around 10Amps.

Speed is only about 8mph with the wheel off the ground.
It used to be more than 30mph.

Lots of vibration and noise coming from the motor.

Any ideas on what i broke ?

I need to probably take apart the motor ?

Anyone fixed a BL-36 ?

No brushes, but what is there that would need fixing ?

Thanks for any help or ideas.

 

[silentguy]

What happened, may have been the equivalent of throttling, and braking at the same time,
because as I was using the throttle, the wheel came loose, and the brakes jammed it to a stop.

Any ideas what this would break ?


I wanted state that I am adding torque arms so this doesnt happen again.
I had to learn the hard way I guess ....

 

[silentguy]

Well, from reading up on other posts,
it seems I have a Hall Sensored Brushless BL-36

The 5 other wires, thin Blue, Green, Yellow,
and thin Black, Red, are for the Hall Sensors.

The 3 thicker wires are for the motor Power.

I've gone ahead and purchased a new 72 Volt 20 Amp Crystalyte controller,
for brushless, with the Hall Sensors.

Do the Hall Sensors on the motor burn out too ?

I hope it's not the motor that is the problem.

Anybody know how to check if the hall sensors are good ?

I didnt smell any weird smells in the motor,
so i dont think anything is fried in there.

Also in the controller it didnt smell weird either,
so not sure what failed there.
The Caps in the controller are 63volts, but I was probably close to that,
as I know I was running at 61volts.
So that is a more likely failiure ?

Also took the opporutunity to silicon seal the motor,
so it should be mostly waterproof now.

Hopefully the motor is still good ....

 

[silentguy]

Here are pics of the motor take apart, and wires :

 

[silentguy]

MOre pics of my BL-36 Brushless take apart

 

[silentguy]

 

[silentguy]

 

[silentguy]

 

[dnmun]

looks like it doesn't even have spokes any more. you shoulda tested it to see which of the hall sensors was shorted before you took it apart. you can't turn it now so you can't figure them out.

 

[silentguy]

It's back together with the spokes and everything.

How do I test the hall sensors ?

check how much power is going to them ?

I need to take it apart again, but keep the spokes on ?

Thanks,

 

[dnmun]

you need to have the controller powered up and the hall sensor wires and the red power lead and the black ground lead all connected to the controller. then observe the voltage on the hall sensor at the 5 pin plug from the backside of the plug, while you move the wheel slightly and the hall senssors should toggle on and off. if they don't toggle on and off they are burned out. you need to make sure the phase wires did not get cut when you twisted off the wheel but sounds like you pulled the leads off the hall sensors.

 

[silentguy]

Thanks for the tips.

All the wires appear to be intact.

I'll try your suggestion about verify the hall sensors.

Replacement sensors are only a few dollars ?

I saw them on ebikes.ca but they were out of stock.

Do they have a voltage rating ?
I probably need to get ones that can handle 61 volts.

 

[dnmun]

i have a buncha hall sensors, honeywell SS41s, i share them out to people too, but first you need to test the ones in your motor to see if they work. power up the controller with the 5pin connector exposed so you can measure the voltage on the backside of the controller side of the 5pin plug, stick your voltmeter probes into the copper part that holds the wire to the pin put the black probe on the black ground wire, then move the wheel just a little while measuring the voltage on each of the green, yellow, blue hall sensor wires, no need to have the throttle connected either so it doesn't run the risk of taking off on you. the hall sensors will toggle on and off, each of them.

 

[dogman dan]

I'm suprised the wires didn't get cut when you spun the wheel. I suspect the controller blew myself. I think you just blew it by stalling the motor. The cause of the spinout is 99% likely due to poor fit of the washers, that deformed and let the nuts loosen. Betcha got quick release dropouts or some kind of lawyer lips.

Not sure if you can still get a sensored controller from WE, but the sensorless one would work, it's 22 amp with no er, exaggerations. With the current aotema controller, you wouldn't need halls. High tech bikes is the good supplier for the sensorless controller.

Check for blown halls first though, of course. If you want high amps and high volts, a Clyte 48- 72v or other similar sensored controller is what you should upgrade to.

 

[silentguy]

This is what my voltmeter found for the hall sensors:


Not plugged into the wheel sensors but powered to the controller and testing the 3 sensor wires to the Black ground wire:

Red - 4.58 Volts
Green - 4.58 Volts
Yellow - 4.58 Volts
Blue - 4.42 Volts -- *** This means the controller is not delivering the same voltage to BLUE as the others


With the sensors wire now plugged into the wheel and connected to the hall sensors, and powered up and spinning the wheel :

Red - 4.36 Volts Constant
Green - goes from zero to 4.36 Volts
Yellow - goes from zero to 4.36 Volts
Blue - 4.20 Volts Constant


Does this tell me the Blue wired Hall Sensor needs replacing ?

If you have some to spare or can tell me where to get them, and the right specs, I really appreciate it.

When the sensor fails, is it because of too much voltage , or too much current, or both ?
That's the danger of overvolting I guess, but risk we are willing to take.

I was stopped at a light, and went to go, I think I pedalled, and also did some throttle,
but the wheel stuck and fell off the fork.
The symptoms of the failure was the wheel stopped, and popped off the fork.
I think there was enough force to do that.


Thanks for your help.

 

[silentguy]

I'm suprised the wires didn't get cut when you spun the wheel. I suspect the controller blew myself. I think you just blew it by stalling the motor. The cause of the spinout is 99% likely due to poor fit of the washers, that deformed and let the nuts loosen. Betcha got quick release dropouts or some kind of lawyer lips.

Not sure if you can still get a sensored controller from WE, but the sensorless one would work, it's 22 amp with no er, exaggerations. With the current aotema controller, you wouldn't need halls. High tech bikes is the good supplier for the sensorless controller.

Check for blown halls first though, of course. If you want high amps and high volts, a Clyte 48- 72v or other similar sensored controller is what you should upgrade to.

I didnt cut the wires, because I was stopped, and when the wheel fell off, I caught it before it went too far.
Yes I do have quick release dropouts.
I am going to use some 11mm wrenches as torque arms now, so the wheel cant fall off.

So you don't need the sensors ? I could just use a sensorless controller, and not worry about those extra 5 wires ?


I did order a Crystalyte 36-72V sensored controller.


Thanks Dogman nice to see you here too.

 

[silentguy]

How easy is it to replace the Blue Wired Hall Sensor.

I think they are taped or glued in place ?
Just find the old one, remove it and put the new one in the exact same place ?

If someones done this before and has tips let me know.

Well the good thing about this is I now know how to take apart my motor, and respoke it.

It looks very nice in there.

 

[dnmun]

i have a thread somewhere on rebuilding a twistoff, but first you need to test them to see if they are bad, since the problem could be in the controller. since you didn't cut the wires or tear them off i figured the most likley was that the leads had pulled loose inside, but if the hall sensors will still toggle then the problem is in your controller and not the wheel. imho.

 

[silentguy]

The BLUE wired hall sensor doesn't toggle.
I tested them.
The Green and Yellow wired sensors do toggle.

So i need to replace the Blue one , right ?

 

[dnmun]

maybe you need to replace it, maybe not. you now need to check continuity from the pins of the 5 pin plug all the way to the leg of the hall sensor in the motor. if you have the plates on now, you only need to take off the side opposite the side where the wires go through. the hall sensors are on the other side and you can reach the legs of the hall sensor with your voltmeter probes.

first power up the controller and check to see that you are getting 4.7V to the red leg, the left leg, of the hall sensor. then you need to turn off the power and check continuity on the black leg or ground in the middle back to the black wire in the 5 pin plug, and finally check continuity between the pin holding the blue wire and the right leg of the hall sensor. the continuity should be 0 ohms.

if you can still show it is a bad hall sensor then i will go find my old rebuild thread for the pictures. here it is:

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=10667

 

[317537]

Recently My bike fell over and I freyed the wires and the bike stopped functioning. To make sure my hub motor was OK and not the controller an elimination process has to take place and the most common problem is the failure of three chips on a printed circuit board inside the hub motor called the HALL SENSORS...

HALL sensor are for the most part a good thing as they aid efficient phase angle magnetic detection and timing of the brushless motor design. However they are sensitive to high higher voltages than they're rated at. (5V)

Before you go waist time and money there is a good fast test you can do without a working controller. You need to test the hub here and disconnect the controller...


Things you need.

1: 3X small batteries soldered in series or 5v power from controller.
2: 1X multimeter.
3: 1X 10k to 1000k resistor
4: Wires
5: One hub motor with sensors that need a testing

First thing I did is build a sensor test battery. I used 3X AA batteries in series and made a solid reliable pack.

Then I attatched the 1000k ohm resistor to the positive..





The test involves turning your hub sensors into a circuit.

The circuit is looks like this.

How it looks in real life looks is a lil more confusing so here goes.


The sensor wires on the golden motor hub are all the thin wires, NEVER ALLOW THE MOTOR POWER WIRES (thick wires) TO TOUCH THE PHASE DETECTION WIRES (thin wires) Even if the motor power wires touch each other the wheel will not move easily at all. just wrap some insulator tape around the motor wires if exposed and you may save yourself a lot of grief. Ive been lucky so far here.


RED (+ sensor power lead)
BLACK (- sensor power lead)
BLUE, YELLOW, and GREEN ( phase detection sensor leads) for three sensors inside your hub.





Connect the negative wire of the battery or to the - BLACK sensor power wire and the black multimeter lead as well like this...

Then connect the +5v battery lead or the controller power directly to the RED sensor power input lead and to the resistor on the opposite side of the resistor endpont, and connect the resistor end point to the red multimeter lead. The image is a little out of whack here as it is hard to do this holding a camera, but the resistor end point is twirled around the red multimeter lead.

Then connect only one of the yellow blue or green wires at a time to the end point of the 1000k resistor.
Here I test the yellow first.

Turn the wheel very slightly until you get close to 5v. If the voltage drops to 0 then goes to 5 volts as you move the wheel the the sensor your testing works.

If any sensore reads 0 or 5 volts and does not change when you move the wheel, IT BUGGERED...

Yellow sensor is all good here as it alternates between 0 to 5 volts. Well my batteries a lil flat and expect a voltage drop from the resistor too 4.27 volts is fine under these conditions.


Leave the wheel so yellow read 5 volts. just change the yellow wire to blue and you should get 0 volts. Then move the wheel you should get 5 volts...


to finish the test repeat the above for green..

If the yellow green and blue sensor wires all turn off to 0 volts and on up to 5 volts your sensor array works perfect...


Ohh! Sensor Array! we going Star Trekie?

 

[317537]

The BLUE wired hall sensor doesn't toggle.
I tested them.
The Green and Yellow wired sensors do toggle.

So i need to replace the Blue one , right ?

Ohh dear the above post took too long.

Yes you need to replace the blue one and replace all the others while you're at it. Some manufactures use cheaper parts and you can use possibly better parts.

 

[dnmun]

i'll repeat, you still need to establish continuity of the power, ground and sensor output on the blue hall sensor back up to the plug. you could easily have pulled the wire apart and that seems most likely since your hall sensors have NOT been exposed to the phase wire voltages WHILE SWITCHING. imho.

 

[dogman dan]

Wire could easily be cut, while the insulation looks ok, or a plug could have a poor contact, as previously said. Ebikes.ca sells a special washer for hubmotors mounted on QR hubs, but my advice is DONT DO IT. Not on a front hub. Get a mtb or bmx fork with big steel dropouts if possible.

I barely look at the V nowdays, everybody's here anyway.

 

[silentguy]

I'll check continuity this weekend.
Will need to take the motor faceplate off.

Thanks for everybodys help and advice, and hopefully I can get this back on the road soon.
I'll post when I have more information.