Zippy Flightmax / Turnigy lipo testing

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Wiring up the harnesses is a PITA. Doing a 40Ah 20S pack, and connecting all the balance taps and soldering together all the pack leads into big 4awg wires took a lot longer than I had imagined it would. It's still much faster than doing a pack build from the cell level though. That takes a lot of work!

It will be very nice if I can get HC to make the packs in building blocks 4x larger. It should mean a 4hr pack build should only be a 1hr pack build :)
 
GGoodrum said:
I ran into the same problem with the little red holders that match up with the packs. It turns out the only way they go on is if you slide them from the back. I figured this out, of course, after I had soldered all the bullets on. :roll:
Click to expand...
Opps, sorry I should have mentioned that!
I butchered the first two when I did it, I tried to heat it up with a heat gun and jam the connector through but yeah, it just melted.
Board mount is a good idea, I thought about doing that and making up my own multi-pin connector - then putting a small ring of tube around it and filling with epoxy to make a solid plug. I figured I'd never get both sides to match up perfectly and fit well though so went with the highly original clipped together andersons.
 
Hello all;

I wanted to make everyone an offer... I have protel (CAD for designing PCBs) here and about 8 years of designing circuits using it's interface.

I haven't made any PCBs for cell level pack builds because I have tons of these 4mm gold connectors laying around so I just made various charging and discharge harnesses.

If anyone would like these PCB layouts made and published as Gerber files suitable for either home or commercial production? Please let me know which designs you would prefer:

Anyone who is interested could just send the PCBs out for production at a commercial PCB house. Most will do 2 sample board in 3 days or less for about 50.00. They have higher quality and finish available for those who want it (Dual Black Epoxy Resin Coated, Dual Hard Gold Plating of the pads to reduce resistance and increase heat handling, etc) and who are willing to wait.

With enough interest I could have some of these made in qty of > 100 with all the bells and whistles features and then some... they would work out to be relatively inexpensive with enough lead time (I would consider a PCB to make 2P12S with dual epoxy coating (I am partial to black) for chemical and heat resistance and double hard gold plating for increased current and heat dissappation and costing in the area of 10-15$ ea)... in either case, if there is enough interest I will coordinate a first bulk order for whatever there is interest in, if people want me to.

Personally I will be needing 2x 2P12S boards and 2x 2P15S boards to begin, I can etch these here at home in small quantities with fairly high quality (Ive been doing prototypes a long time, it's not always easy like these) and will for myself. Most likely I will divide into 4x2P6S and 4x2P8S

The pack PCBs I'm considering are:

2P10S - 10AH, 37 v nominal
3P10S - 15AH, 37 v nominal
2P12S - 10AH, 44.4 v nominal
3P12S - 15AH, 44.4 v nominal
2P15S - 10AH, 55.5 v nominal

I am open to requests, suggestions and will work on these in the coming days. I am also thinking that grouping them into 6S or 8S blocks for charging purposes, again open to suggestions and requests.

-Mike
 
I was getting excessive voltage drop with 8awg wire. Upgraded to 4awg and 2awg and voltage stays up better.

Do you have an option for extra thick copper on the PCB's? I think many of the LiPo guys are (or will be) drawing between 100-600amps.

I like the 8mm pin/sleeve tight fitting connectors, or just directly soldering the pack leads together into beefy leads.

What would be super handy would be if somebody wanted to do a production run of JST multi-tap harnesses.

I've made a ton of my own, and you can see a few of them on the right side of this picture, but it's very tedious and time consuming work. Doing 1-4 harnesses is a pain. Doing 1-8 harnesses is really taxing and lame. I would gladly pay $20-30 a piece for some pre-made ones to save me the 2-hours of cutting 56 pieces of heat shrink, stripping 56 wires, soldering 56 wires, heat gunning the heat shrink for 56 wires, and then testing to make sure no wires were connected wrong.

All it would take is somebody taking normal JST extension leads, and throwing in a male side some where mid lead. Then packs could all easily be daisy chained at the cell level for balanceing, and it would be flexible, take seconds to connect/disconnect/isolate.


randompartsjq7.jpg
 
I sent Hobbycity an email a few month ago (when they weren't selling Turnigy yet) and asked them if I could buy 200 lose 5Ah Zippy cells for a motorcycle build. At first they didn't want to, so I replied I could understand that and that I was sorry to hear it. I then asked if they could direct me to their supplier. After that they changed their mind and said they could sell them to me for a wholesale price. It was still too early for me to buy so I didn't do it.

Now I think I will just buy 6s packs since it seems easier to assemble into a big pack.

EDIT: added that it was the Zippy 5Ah cells I was talking about.
 
liveforphysics said:
I was getting excessive voltage drop with 8awg wire. Upgraded to 4awg and 2awg and voltage stays up better
Click to expand...
How many amps are you drawing to need to go to 2awg ???

While soldering up my packs today I noticed one I ordered a month or 2 back has puffed slightly. Not alot, but when I picked it up I noticed one cell on the end is a bit squishy and can be compressed a few mm. All cells are perfectly in balance at ~3.8v as they arrived from HK, it's just been sitting on my bench and hasn't been charged. I'm not completely sure it's done it spontaneously, I wasn't looking for puffy cells before so I may have missed it if I happened to pick it up a different way.

So... whats the deal with packs that puff ?
Should they be binned immediately, or can they be used if an eye is kept on them ?
 
Keep pressure on them.

All pouch type cells should be compressed at all times. The heat-shrink on packs is not just for looks and the very mild protection it offers.

You can do a little experiment with your puffing pack. Throw some load on it, like a couple car headlight bulbs or any resistive load that is roughly a constant draw.

Have your meter on the voltage of the pack under load.

Set the pack on something flat, and set a board or something similar on top so you can step on it to apply a lot of pressure to the pack. You will watch the voltage that the pack holds under load increase with the pressure on the cells. This is because it decreases the internal resistance of the cells as the space between the layers decreases.

I made a thread showing a bunch of pics of exactly what they look like inside there, and what happens when they start to puff.

As far as safety goes, it will have increased Ri, which means more heat, more voltage drop etc. Depending on the application , it may be ok, may not be ok.

I bind my packs in stacks with about 50-100lbs of pressure tying them together. I use many rolls of electrical tape, carefully adding holding about 2lbs of stretch on every layer of tape I do. For example, if you do 4 sets of 10 wraps each with 2lbs of tension stretching the tape as you wrap the layers, then you've got 160lbs of tension (80lbs on each side) pinching that stack of packs together. Cells perform very well with that pressure on them keeping the layers pinched tightly together.
 
I just scanned the last 5 pages.
Cant remember if I reported, but the last 4 packs I bought (6S 5Ah 20C) came in perfect. All within 11mV. Cheaper than my last batch of 15C :|

My procedure when I get packs to to hook them all together in parallel at the balance taps and hook my favorite balancer on there and walk away.
I never cycle packs. I just hook them up to my bike and cycle them the good old fashion way. I have never seen a new lipo cell that "looked fine" but failed after some period of time. Call me lucky - call me an optimist - call me reckless.

btw: For what it is worth - my opinion

* I dont like bullet connectors because it is too easy to short things out. Any connector that will allow me to create a short circuit will inevitably lead to a short circuit. I am currently in love with the Anderson connectors.

* I think 6S is the way to go simply because of industry standards and availability. We need to align ourselves with the RC guys. My hope is for a 6S 10Ah pack.

* I think that Gary needs to fab up a board to do series-parallel hookup. When the packs come in we just cut off all the connectors and solder into the board. All the JST-XH balance taps would then plug in.

-methods
 
methods -

I will PCB up a board for whatever basic config people want, I could even incorporate cell (or parallel block) level LV detection and cutout trigger.

The biggest issue with designing PCBs for these (imho) is determining mounting method and location.

For example:

1.) If I mount 12S2P under my main tube (current method) then I basically have 2 12S 5AH packs which I parallel (harness) and then feed into ESC. The packs are 4 high for 12S and then run the length of two packs.

2.) This would not work nearly as well for a 3P or 4P configuration

3.) When trunk mounting the batteries (on my rack), I actually use them in 12S1P configuration (range issue, can't get too far this way) since my nominal load isn't too heavy right now. This works in the above pack layout for me but... I am sure others would like to weigh in.

Perhaps if we can just decide on 2 basic PCB modules - 1.) 6S1P and 2.) 6S2P then we have the building blocks needed for anything we could want (more or less).

If the experts will weigh in on actual PCB pack configuration, I will do the layouts and publish for both negative exposure (DIY) and commercial CAM process.

-Mike
 
methods said:
* I dont like bullet connectors because it is too easy to short things out. Any connector that will allow me to create a short circuit will inevitably lead to a short circuit. I am currently in love with the Anderson connectors.

* I think 6S is the way to go simply because of industry standards and availability. We need to align ourselves with the RC guys. My hope is for a 6S 10Ah pack.
Click to expand...


Here here!!
 
I like the combination of getting bulk loose cells at wholesale prices (as bearing mentioned) and then building desired packs quickly with a range of purpose-designed and published PCBs as offered by Mike, and/or made by Gray. This route would involve some group buying and then distribution though.
I'm after 48-92 myself soon and possibly more later and I'm guessing that there would be 2 or 3 other Victorians around here that might meet for a 200 cell party :mrgreen:
Anyone interested who can get to Melbourne (or knows how these things can be posted legally in Oz) let me know!

- Ben
 
Ben,

I have a crude design now for 2P6S Segments (Figuring people can build from there to fit nearly any configuration, well okay it fits my needs). I have a bit more trace thickening to do and there are a few tap traces that have me worried right now (2-3 mil thick) which even with Hard Gold Plating and dual epoxy resin protection scares me in a battery circuit.

Although I have though of integrating a BMS (Programmable LVC, HVC ... no current limiting at this time) and it is doable there are many many standalone BMS and blancer systems for lipoly so why re-invent the wheel. I do plan to have an isolated per parallel cluster balancer tab trace which will terminate along the same block and accept soldered wires (up to 12 guage- should be good for single cell charging up to 6-8 amps) or 100 mil spacing pin headers to make your own connectiers. Standard balance plugs will be included if desired.

I have sent my design for these off to the prototype facility and should hear back with a price breakdown in 100, 200 and 500 quantities. I am not looking to make a profit here (re-imbursement at a reasonable rate for the time involved in booking, ordering, redistributing to individual buyers - maybe a 2-5% mark up (if the cost would sustain it)). Really I would like to get some quality PCBs out there that can handle the amperage you more elite folk are planning on pulling through these packs.

When I get the price quote back from them (and lead times) I will post my costs here and then we can factor s&h... I really don't want to track the finite oz/gram weight of each board x customer because it's far too time consuming but s&h should be fairly cheap as we can use USPS for this.

I can also souce a low cost supply of the silver solder and flux which you will need to solder the aluminum cell tabs into place.
-Mike
 
I considered bulk distribution of Lipo on this board... I was going to buy a few cases from HC, average out the shipping, and ship flat rate 2-3 day.
Then I considered the nighmare of endless PM's telling me that one cell (out of 50) has 3% less capacity and so forth...

Unfortunately around here - Lipo is so expensive and we are so cheap - that I will never want to distribute those.
Too much personal risk involved.

Whoever decides to be the organizer of that group buy - pity his soul!

-methods
 
methods said:
I considered bulk distribution of Lipo on this board... I was going to buy a few cases from HC, average out the shipping, and ship flat rate 2-3 day.
Then I considered the nighmare of endless PM's telling me that one cell (out of 50) has 3% less capacity and so forth...

Unfortunately around here - Lipo is so expensive and we are so cheap - that I will never want to distribute those.
Too much personal risk involved.

Whoever decides to be the organizer of that group buy - pity his soul!

-methods
Click to expand...

If anyone is up for a trip to Hong Kong from UK - I will pay 250 GBP of the 400 GBP flight in return for collecting some LiPos. Sounds crazy - but if a few people in same city/area are up for it it is cheaper to fly there and collect in person. Just pay a bit of excess baggage.

(if 2-3 interested we should do it ... no complaining though!)
 
A suitcase full of LiPo...hmmm.

Is that allowable??? They generally ask if you have anything dangerous in your luggage. International airports are not the sort of place you want to get stuck in explaining yourself to authorities, particularly if it's in another country. :D
 
Don't take a suitcase full, it might look suspicious. I reckon wear a vest with all your lipo cells strapped to it, it cuts down on you going over your luggage allowance and shouldn't cause any problems going through airport security... :lol:
 
Hyena said:
Don't take a suitcase full, it might look suspicious. I reckon wear a vest .....
Click to expand...

Lol...

-methods
 
I would totally do something like this, but I would have a thousand or so stickers printed up in advance that say something like, "NiCd 7.2v 3Ah toy battery" And also include a copy of every little approval sticker you've ever seen. "UL listed", "CE", "RoHS", then maybe invent a few, and add something like, "Air travel shipping safe".

Then print up some fake invoices and fake bill-of-sales the list them as "Prismatic NiCd Saftey toy batteries" or something, and make sure to throw them right on top in each piece of luggage so they see when they inspect, because I'm positive they would inspect.


Stick one of those stickers on each pack, fill each carry-on luggage with as many packs as I could easily carry, perhaps 200lbs of packs in each piece of luggage, maybe 3 pieces of luggage, pay the extra weight luggage fees, and send them on through to get checked.
 
Hey all,

Sorry to be the bummer but if you took lipos on an aircraft you could be totally scre*&( !

Seriously, the FAA regulations are far worse than the normal DOT, and Hazmat ground shipping requirements and it's just not worth the fines and hassle.

-Mike
 
15S1P Turnigy Lipo - Charged to 4.17v per cell (62.55 v hot)

This was a test run by my friend and associate Jason Able of MTO Battery ( http://www.mtobattery.com ). He said he had it up to 34 but I guess he didn't look down when he hit 47 and had a car coming at him. I didn't notice until I got home from Lancaster and his test runs (at different speed limits, lipo configurations, amperage limits, etc).

I thought the data was wrong but I checked it... I manually calculated the time between GPS locations where 47 mph was alleged by Eagle Tree and sure enough the GPS was right on... even the RPM of the wheel matches up with the kV + the advance I dialed in.

Basically this is what 150.00 of turnigy lipo 3s packs could get you (or 3x5s packs)

The infineon is reprogrammed but not modified so far... Speed %2 is set at 120 (need to put my dash board back on so I can switch this smoothly or even better teach the pretroller to shift up and down for me electronically based on wheel speed, brake input throttle position, etc.

The bike is as described in my sig, except for the new 15s configuration ... Jason provided me with an equiv nimh pack of 10AH capacity... it's heavy man but it won't blow up like lipo could ...

Speaking of blowing upo, some recent research has indicated that lipos perform best when operating between 100-120F range. This is measured by voltage drop under loads, peak currents delivered, etc. In fact, back some time ago ... RC CAR racers would use warming blankets on their lipos before a race to get them up to best output performance. This was quickly made a no-no because people were using literal electric blankets, hot water bottles... seriously, stupid stuff... The real point is lipo runs better warmer but do keep an eye on the temperature if you are able (even if only with some audible alarm.

My lipos are in a well padded and insulated rack mount trunk. I have 10G (700% C, Gas and Oil Resistant) AWG running power from the back to teh front handle bar bag with the controller (Infineon 9FET) mounted below (underneath) upside down with the fets facing forward.

-Mike


EagleTreeLogger_47MPH%20GPS%203rd%20Party%20Confirmed.jpg
 
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