Cost/Benefit Questions for first ebike build (BBX's)

I

ivi_3

1 mW
Joined
Jul 5, 2016
Messages
17
Hi ESers,

I'm seeking advice on my first build regarding the cost/benefit analysis of the BBS02 vs BBSHD (or any other build strongly suggested). The current Luna Cycle sale on BBS02's has me thinking twice about my conviction of "BBSHD or bust". Basically, what would your thoughts be on the cost/benefit analysis of the two mid-drives for a 6ft 185lb commuter looking to do a 10mi commute (20 miles total). The commute is just hilly enough that I've thought twice about DDs. This assumes the current price point of the BBS02 at 885 and the BBSHD 52v at 1285 all inclusive.

Back information: Last year, I fell in love with the idea of biking to work through the Mr. Money Mustache Blog posts (http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2015/08/31/electric-bike-reviews/ among others). After this, I made the preliminary purchase of an entry level Trek 29er with a 68mm bottom bracket. I have every intention of upgrading the bike to an ebike but wanted to condition myself to the commuting idea. From Aug to Dec or so I did a 12mi round trip commute on the bike alone to build my base. Hills were the hardest part of course on a suspension MTB. I've been saving all my budgeted disposable income (the wife and I are very frugal) for a little over six months in preparation for building this bike. I'm totally comfortable waiting longer for the next sale or suggested buying window.

Off now to triple check that the BBS's will fit using this post: https://electricbike.com/forum/foru.../bbshd/10736-how-to-order-the-right-bbsxx-kit
 
Can you say how steep/long the hills are? A mid-drive is going to require a lot more chain maintenance and probably not be as reliable as a direct drive hub motor for commuting.
 
Hmmm, Google maps is saying 600ft of climbing over the 10mi. The hills on the new route don't seem as bad as the previous commute. I think the total elevation change is about the same if not less than my previous 6.7mi commute.

Is there a better website for judging hills? As a novice, I am trying to fight my natural impulse to overstate their grade :D. These are coastal Connecticut hills so they're not incredibly sharp inclines that often.

For reliability, having to change my tires on the road is nearly impossible with DDs right? The interchangeability and road maintenance availability is a factor.

I'd also like this bike to scoot along at a nice clip (20+mph no problem). With those considerations in mind, I'd love to hear your DD suggestions. Ease of install and interfacing parts together is a considerationas well.
 
600 feet of climb over 10 total miles is one thing and no big deal,
but if that 600 feet all falls within a single short section it could be a tougher climb.
Here is good site for calculating the grade of any given section:
http://veloroutes.org/hillgradecalculator/

I'm 175 pounds and live in a very hilly area.
From my own experience...

1) BBS02 performs terrific for any route I ride. Drop into lower gears and it climbs the hills without fuss. Go into higher gears and it flies on the flat. If I was going off-road the BBSHD might be better, but for on-road it would be overkill for my needs. If choosing between BBS02 and BBSHD for your commute... I'd save money by getting the BBS02, and invest that saved money in a great battery.

2) My other main bike is a MAC geared motor hub. I have to add pedal power a bit on steepest hills near my house (~7% grade), but otherwise no pedaling needed unless I want to. It is a simple, low maintenance workhorse.

Like them both, but on balance and if I could have only one of them the BBS02 would probably be my pick.

Can't speak from personal experience about DD hubs, but for commute you describe DD might be a great low cost option with a battery that will feed it sufficient power.

Re flats... not that big a deal if you use the Dutch approach to repairing punctures, leave the wheel mounted while you patch the tube: https://bicycledutch.wordpress.com/2016/03/15/dutch-style-puncture-repair/
 
I should add that I use a 48v 30A controller with geared hub motor, Bafang BPM2 24mph max, and it is plenty powerful for me (145lbs, always pedal) on hills on my route that are several miles long (10%) or on my driveway, which has a short stretch of 20% steepness. Max power draw of 1200w, but I usually keep it under 700-800w average on a hill. Never ridden a mid-drive myself.
 
Using the veloroutes site (awesome!!!) I'm seeing the hills are no more than 6% grade and aren't especially long persay. I'm just a wimp :D

Places to buy MAC motors include em3ev and where else? Having convinced myself of the mid-drive, I have under-researched the hub motor buying options. Part of the appeal was having a motor and battery that were guaranteed to interface well. The Luna hub drive kits offer no branding whether is BMC or MAC except for the more expensive Xiongda model.
 
Does Luna still sell the Magic Pie? I've had one on my street bike for a year or so and its working fine. Integrated controllers have a lot to recommend them for a first ebike.
 
I would highly recommend a dd hub Iver the bbsxx series for commuting, I've had a bbs01 and bbshd, both were a nightmare, atheist once a month I had issues after the first 4 months of use, especially the HD, first my motor shift bearing, then the clutch, plus you can't leave it anywhere, and on my charge cooker 27.5+ replacing my chain and cassette once every two months (with proper alignment) is astronomically expensive in the long run, that's without the added cost of replacing the blingring, a dd will save on pars through regeneration, and the saved money can he spent on a better battery, read range, and a torque sensing bb, read efficiency and better ride quality
 
Hi ivi_3
I came to these forums the exact same way (MMM blog) and had the exact same dilemma regarding BBSxx. After months of dallying (I had just graduated and didn't have a job, thus had no money to be decisive), I finally came to the conclusion that what made most sense for a cheap commuter was a rock-bottom priced 1000W ebay DD motor. kits are ~$160 shipped.

See https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=41170 for one long-term review.

The pros and cons of a cheap DD motor come out in favor of light duty commuter use in my opinion

Cons:
* lower efficiency than more expensive motors (70-something% to 80-something%). The cost difference is maybe a cent of electricity per ride, and a ~13% larger battery for the same range.
* no gear reduction for higher torque. This means you won't accelerate as fast off the line or be able to climb mountains.
* might have to spend time and effort (poking things with a multimeter and soldering) manually enabling controller features like regen braking

Pros:
* save ~$350 in motor/shipping cost, minus the $50-100 extra battery expense from above
* DD is very robust. Only maintenance is flat tires, and puncture-resistant tires/liners and sealant almost eliminate flats.
* low replacement cost means little worry about damage or theft (assuming you take the expensive bit, the battery, in to work with you to charge)
 
The deal in question is no longer on offer. Perhaps this is for the best though....

I'm considering myself disabused of the necessity of a mid drive for road maintenance. The Dutch method above I've actually used to patch a flat before.

Thank you all for posting in this thread and I will continue to pick your brains regarding hub options! Time for more research!

I was ready to jump on the deal if Luna had offered it, but maybe this is for the best long term.
 
bnoooogers said:
...I finally came to the conclusion that what made most sense for a cheap commuter was a rock-bottom priced 1000W ebay DD motor. kits are ~$160 shipped.

See https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=41170 for one long-term review.

The pros and cons of a cheap DD motor come out in favor of light duty commuter use in my opinion
Click to expand...

Don't own DD myself but have ridden a few, and think there is a lot of good sense in the above advice. If you basically want some boost for taking the sweat out of commuting, aren't dealing with silly steep/long hills, are happy with moderate acceleration... an inexpensive DD combined with a quality removable battery is tough combo to beat from a mrmoneymustache perspective.
 
FWIW, I have commuted on a BBS02 for 1 year and recently upgraded to a BBSHD. My commute is roughly equivalent to yours in length and hills. I weigh about 220 lbs + 50 lbs for everything else. I previously had a flat commute and used a 1000W DD front hub motor from eBay. One day while riding in with the hub motor, I got a flat on the motor wheel and found it impossible to fix on the side of the road - had to call a work colleague and have him pick me up with a truck on his drive. With the BBS02, I once snapped a chain on my ride home, but since I carry a chain tool as standard gear I was able to fix it and get on my way. I have never had a mechanical issue with the BBS drives themselves (newest models of each from Luna). Monitor the chain and cassette wear, replace when necessary, and they make a fine commuter. I would get a BBSHD if you can afford it and have a suitable 30A battery, but the BBS02 is definitely good enough. When I upgraded, the difference seemed rather subtle - just a bit more power. You'll definitely appreciate the ability of a mid-drive to run the power through a range of gear choices though.

FYI - I ride 26" wheels with a 42T Bling Ring HD and 11-32 cassette
 
titusmc said:
FWIW, I have commuted on a BBS02 for 1 year and recently upgraded to a BBSHD. My commute is roughly equivalent to yours in length and hills. I weigh about 220 lbs + 50 lbs for everything else. I previously had a flat commute and used a 1000W DD front hub motor from eBay. One day while riding in with the hub motor, I got a flat on the motor wheel and found it impossible to fix on the side of the road - had to call a work colleague and have him pick me up with a truck on his drive. With the BBS02, I once snapped a chain on my ride home, but since I carry a chain tool as standard gear I was able to fix it and get on my way. I have never had a mechanical issue with the BBS drives themselves (newest models of each from Luna). Monitor the chain and cassette wear, replace when necessary, and they make a fine commuter. I would get a BBSHD if you can afford it and have a suitable 30A battery, but the BBS02 is definitely good enough. When I upgraded, the difference seemed rather subtle - just a bit more power. You'll definitely appreciate the ability of a mid-drive to run the power through a range of gear choices though.

FYI - I ride 26" wheels with a 42T Bling Ring HD and 11-32 cassette
Click to expand...
Good to know BBS02 and HD can be reliable. About how many chains per year do you use or how many miles per chain? Also does cogs/cassette need replace?
 
ivi_3 said:
For reliability, having to change my tires on the road is nearly impossible with DDs right?
Click to expand...

I have changed probably 10 tubes on my DD rear hub motor, and while it is a pain to take the wheel off, it is doable. I think it really depends on your tire, some brands are known to fit tighter to the wheel than others. Mine seems to bend my tire irons, but eventually I have gotten the tire off each time.
 
anoNY42 said:
ivi_3 said:
For reliability, having to change my tires on the road is nearly impossible with DDs right?
Click to expand...

I have changed probably 10 tubes on my DD rear hub motor, and while it is a pain to take the wheel off, it is doable. I think it really depends on your tire, some brands are known to fit tighter to the wheel than others. Mine seems to bend my tire irons, but eventually I have gotten the tire off each time.
Click to expand...
There is also a innertube that is open, with ends, rather than a circle. Then you don't need to take the wheel off and can replace the tube if you can't patch it. Forget what it's called.
 
Jon NCal said:
There is also a innertube that is open, with ends, rather than a circle. Then you don't need to take the wheel off and can replace the tube if you can't patch it. Forget what it's called.
Click to expand...

Google has failed me also. Someone change my life by telling me what these are!
 
Jon NCal said:
Good to know BBS02 and HD can be reliable. About how many chains per year do you use or how many miles per chain? Also does cogs/cassette need replace?
Click to expand...
I would estimate it to be about 1 (max 2) replacement of each per year with a 20 mile round trip commute. That's somewhere around 3000-5000 miles per chain/cassette depending on how many days a week you ride (generally, both are replaced together as they have matched wear). Also, FYI - I originally used a KMC e-Bike chain (the one that snapped...). Ever since I have used a SRAM PC-971 chain without issue (and I ride with a brand new spare chain and chain tool in my road emergency kit).
 
anoNY42 said:
Jon NCal said:
There is also a innertube that is open, with ends, rather than a circle. Then you don't need to take the wheel off and can replace the tube if you can't patch it. Forget what it's called.
Click to expand...

Google has failed me also. Someone change my life by telling me what these are!
Click to expand...

Some info on these tubes:

http://www.bicycles.net.au/2014/12/review-gaadi-bicycle-inner-tubes-the-new-revolution/

https://en.hollandbikeshop.com/bicycle-tires-and-inner-tubes/gaadi-inner-tube/

Never tried one, but they seem like a reasonably useful thing. Also available on Amazon and eBay, but in limited range of sizes.
 
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