Adaptto - manual fine tuning Thread

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notger
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Adaptto - manual fine tuning Thread

Post by notger » Tue Apr 18, 2017 5:27 am

Hi,

The "main" Adaptto Thread https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... g#p1279709 is getting too big right now to keep an overview about all the covered topics.

Thats why i see the need to open a seperate Topic about manual fine tuning the adaptto besides the autodetect function.

There is this quite good explaining video from NYX-Bikes https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-cmNtBS-n9k
Still it does not go that deep or explain the effects of the individual "manual tuning" settings or their relations to each other.

I played around with my two adaptto's on on a GNG-mid-Drive the other on a MXUS, but every time ended in autodetecting and going with those auto-settings at the end.
By fine tuning (without really knowing what i actually do) i got effects like shaking, massive overheating, shaking at high rpm, lower torque than with autodetect,....

So would some people who know about Controller settings fill us in how manual setting in adaptto relate to each other and how manual tuning could be done step-by-step ??

greets, and thanks in advance

notger

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Re: Adaptto - manual fine tuning Thread

Post by Cowardlyduck » Tue Apr 18, 2017 6:21 am

I've had a bit of experience manually tuning a couple of different motors, HS4080 (4T)and '1500W' Leaf motor (5T) on my Mini-E.
In both cases, I've never been sure I've got the tuning right as the motors do seem to heat up about as fast or a bit faster than on the old square wave infineon controllers.

The best 'guide' I've found so far has been this Menu Reference guide. Some of the settings aren't exactly correct any more for the newer controllers, but it explains the purpose of the complex tuning settings the best I've seen so far.

Hope that helps.

Cheers
Last edited by Cowardlyduck on Tue Apr 18, 2017 6:22 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Adaptto - manual fine tuning Thread

Post by Allex » Tue Apr 18, 2017 6:21 am


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Re: Adaptto - manual fine tuning Thread

Post by Doctorbass » Tue Apr 18, 2017 2:03 pm

Thanks Allex,

In fact i made that sumarry for myself and with the help of you, Jeka and Oleg but i shared it with many people that after said it was very helpfull, i have more detailed version.. if i can find it i'll add it again.
so here is the actual i found in my folder:

Short compilation of most of the tuning settings instruction i am using on the Adaptto:

Here it is step by step:

Note1: you will need to recalibrate above values when when volting up or down on your bike.
Note2: Both manual and auto tuning should be done at the charge state that you are riding in mostly. So don't do it on a fully charged battery nor on a discharged one.

1: Set OVS (fielf weakening) to 0

2: Do a THROTTLE CALIBRATION (thr linear)

3: Lift up the wheel accelerate to 10-15km/h and holding this speed, adjust your ANGLE CORR so you have a smooth rotation.
If the angle is wrong you will hear it and also the wheel will turn more slowly. So keep adjusting it until you have the most silent spin at this speed.
You can also test it on a very long stretch. Find a flat road and drive 15km/h and try and finally keep setting you get the lowest possible temp.
(Angle corr setting compensate for the inaccuracy of the Hall sensors installed. This inaccuracy is the difference between the applied magnetic field of the stator and the Hall sensor angle readings. Since three Hall sensors are installed, this setting is the average deviation of the three gauges from zero. The Deviation of each individual hall sensor is determined and automatically compensated during the motor auto-detect process.)

4: Same goes with IND TIMING. But this time you need to have a constant cruising speed (ex ~35-50km/h). If you do not know what the cruising speed of the motor, then look at"debug" screen, In the line "OA: xxxx DA = xxxx Axxxx" see "Axxxx". Look at the first digit after the letter "A" and gradually speed up motor. It will begin to change in the following order: 8,9, A, B, C, D, E, F. Accordingly, 8 corresponds to the minimum rotation, and F to the maximum. You need a speed corresponding to the letter "D". After reaching motor cruising speed start changing parameter "ind timing". Select a value where the cruising speed is achieved with minimal effort (ie, the minimum throttle). If the wheel does not spin or vice versa spins very quickly, ind timing is off. Very high speed is not valuable. Keep current consumption at no more than 7.5 amps. Under strong throttle, settings above certain values will make the motor begin to slow and get noisy. This should be avoided, reduce the throttle input. Value generally should be slightly less than the threshold at which the motor begins to slow and get noisy.
(Ind timing sets the delay compensation between the signal hall sensor and the control signal of the controller. When rotating at high speeds, the signal from the sensors has been delayed, so you need to adjust the timing. Accordingly, it is the sum of the controller Hall sensor filter circuit delay and the controller CPU processing time. Determined automatically during the motor auto-detect process.)

5. Adjust POWER TIMING so you have maximum torque when you go WOT from 50km/h(about 1/2 of your top speed).(usually values: 0.17 for high-speed motors, 0.3-0.5 for average and 0.7-1.2 for slow motors). PWR timing sets the lead angle shift in relation to the phase current. The greater the inductance of the windings of the motor is, the stronger the control signal phase currents. This setting compensates BEMF.

6: Set OVS timing( field weakening), Optimal values are usually 2-4. OVS timing setting responsible for extra motor speed when the battery voltage is not high enough to achieve the maximum vehicle speed. When the PWM cycle is nearly 100%, the controller increases the lead angle, which enables additional speed (and reduced efficiency of the motor). Only if the voltage is limiting the maximum motor speed, not the wind resistance, will this work.

7: To avoid damage to the controller it is recommended to set the maximum speed limit when configuring profiles somewhere around 20% more than the maximum speed of your vehicle on the road

8: Shunt2 – Power profiles compensation. If the maximum current shown on the ammeter while in use differs from the maximum current set in the power mode profiles, change this value. Adjusting this value will change the settings of current profiles (power mode profiles), while the actual current used does not change. This setting is used to fine tune the displayed current while in use to match the actual controller current limits.

Other important parameters:

Wire R - Stator resistance at standard temperature (24 degrees C). Determined automatically during the motor auto-detect process.

Motor KV - Measured in arbitrary units. Determined automatically during the motor auto-detect process. Wire R and Motor KV values are needed for a new algorithm for calculating the phase current (based on the current speed, control voltage and winding resistance, and not from the control voltage and current, as in the standard version). This algorithm is required to reverse the engine braking, and also improves the smoothness and precision of the phase current limits. It includes the following setting:

Wire R PHC - The use of an alternative algorithm for calculating the phase current. Allows you to calculate the current even at zero cycle of the PWM that is required for proper zero crossing at work reverse braking. Important: when this setting is turned off, the motor KV will be sensed automatically if the motor spins up to medium speed and the throttle is released. After you enable this setting, automatic motor KV sensing does not occur.

Doc
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Re: Adaptto - manual fine tuning Thread

Post by tomgda » Mon Apr 24, 2017 7:16 am

Doctorbass wrote:i have more detailed version.. if i can find it i'll add it again.
Doctorbass have you found more detailed version ?

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Re: Adaptto - manual fine tuning Thread

Post by Doctorbass » Mon Apr 24, 2017 8:03 am

tomgda wrote:
Doctorbass wrote:i have more detailed version.. if i can find it i'll add it again.
Doctorbass have you found more detailed version ?
I did not found it. It was translation from the electrotransport.ru website.

Doc
CURRENT PROJECT: 2WD duo MXUS/Max-E ebike 32kW
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... =3&t=65764
-Fastest speed record 117 km/h on flat
-Fastest 1/4 mile@ 114km/h on flat and 16.316 sec
-Succeded to haul a 19200 pounds schoolbus!
113kmh Gianthttp://www.evalbum.com/3406
Mongoosehttp://www.evalbum.com/1947
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http://twitter.com/DocbassMelancon
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Re: Adaptto - manual fine tuning Thread

Post by bigbore » Wed May 03, 2017 2:47 pm

On my setup after doing the following steps as per Allex and Doctorbass directions
1: Set OVS (fielf weakening) to 0
2: Do a THROTTLE CALIBRATION (thr linear)
3: Lift up the wheel accelerate to 10-15 .... adjust ANGLE CORR ....
4: Same goes with IND TIMING. But this time you need to have a constant cruising speed (ex ~35-50km/h) ....

I have discovered two things.
1) Increasing POWER TIMING I have both more maximum torque under acceleration and also gain more top speed.
and
2) Increasing POWER TIMING with OVS = 0° or increasing OVS(0°=>3°) with POWER TIMING = 0.69 I can get to 100Km/h but then at full throttle there is no more amperage drop. I have around 145-150A constant for many km.

Are these 2 things in the norm?

Edit: I found the data I collected some time ago

Image

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Re: Adaptto - manual fine tuning Thread

Post by litespeed » Thu May 04, 2017 7:07 am

I'm going to have to try this and see as well.

Tom
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Re: Adaptto - manual fine tuning Thread

Post by ridethelightning » Wed May 24, 2017 5:28 am

thanks for posting that bb, pwr timing is still a bit of a mystery to me. so you can get a higher top speed for a given ovs value, by increasing the pwr timing..interesting 8)

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Re: Adaptto - manual fine tuning Thread

Post by bigbore » Wed May 24, 2017 2:05 pm

ridethelightning wrote:thanks for posting that bb, pwr timing is still a bit of a mystery to me. so you can get a higher top speed for a given ovs value, by increasing the pwr timing..interesting 8)
Yes with my QS205 extra/V3 30X4T 11.39kV and 20S14P of 18650 LG DBHE2 I have those results and would be useful to know if I have something strange or other people have the same behavior

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Re: Adaptto - manual fine tuning Thread

Post by notger » Sun Jul 02, 2017 2:03 pm

Talking about Settings: where are the Setttings actually stored? on the Display or the Controller (Box)

I plan to use one Controller (Box) with several Motors-Options, and i have one spare Display here.
It would be nice to just change to Motor and Display without having to make an autodetect and all the other changes every time.

Or does anyone see other solutions ?

greets

Notger

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Re: Adaptto - manual fine tuning Thread

Post by csc » Wed Sep 06, 2017 2:37 pm

Notger : almost everything seems stored in the controller : no way

Allex, what I understand here (https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 0#p1313396) about ind and pwr is quite different from what i read from Doctorbass above : would you please give more details about how and why you tune these settings ?

Doctorbass : do you have new thoughts about the ind/pwr/ovs stuff ?

My plan is to use my 2xMXUS 3t with 2 x 10kw max e AND understand what I do at the same time, which I have to admit, is not 100% the case right now, though it goes already way too fast.

To sum up my doubts, here's a more precise question :

Doctorbass explains in details why ind timing is a fix value. Others show that increasing it makes the machine go faster. I currently run with ind 469 and pwr 1.59 but it's a blind test. Are these values linked or independant ?

edit (as you've noticed I edit a lot) : here's what I see with my mxus 3T

First the angle corr is at -9° with autodetect and goes to -12° after the manual tuning based on noise (same as my former v2 4T)

Then Ind timing seems to be a fix value if you consider the noise again when manual tuning. For my winding it's around 590us (was 462 previously with a v2 4T). Important : increasing the Ind timing will increase the no load speed, but apparently it's not an improvement if I believe Doctobass' guides : so I'll prefer OVS to increase speed

pwr seems to set the amount of acceleration at mid and high speed : the higher, the more torque (and heat). I suspect you need to increase PWR and OVS alltogether, otherwise the power is not available at high speed in real conditions. What I don't understand is when Doctorbass says that I should be around 0.1 / 0.3 with my fast winding. Around 1 gives a very bigger acceleration and heat is almost reasonable (working on it right now). Probably possible only because my 2wd config avoids a lot of heat.

OVS : cheats with max speed, warms too much after 4 with a 3T, 6/7 was ok with my 4T

Am I on the good path ?

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Re: Adaptto - manual fine tuning Thread

Post by notger » Thu Sep 14, 2017 8:19 am

Hi, in the Adapttos Owner Thread ther are Fine-Tune-Questions comming up again, so i just post the info from the menue reference.pdf

So if anyone is up to explain more detailed how you get the perfect Values of those setting that would be amazing.
(thanks to those who did that allread in this thread)


Advanced
Setup 1
/5


Angle corr.
-8.18°
This setting makes up for the inaccuracy of the Hall sensors installed. That is, the difference between the applied magnetic field of the stator and the Hall sensor angle readings. Since three Hall sensors are installed, this setting is the average deviation of the three gauges from zero. Deviation of each sensor separately is determined and automatically compensated for during the rotation of the motor. Determined automatically during the motor auto-detect process.

Angle corr2
+0.00°
Analog versions of the above settings for reverse thrust mode (ie, active braking) Ind timing 0430uS Sets the delay compensation between the signal hall sensor and the control signal of the controller. When rotating at high speeds, the signal from the sensors has been delayed, so you need to adjust the timing. Accordingly, it is the sum of the controller Hall sensor filter circuit delay and the controller CPU processing time. Determined automatically during the motor auto-detect process. PWR timing - Sets the lead angle shift in relation to the phase current. The greater the inductance of the windings of the motor, the stronger the control signal phase currents. This setting compensates BEMF.

PWR timing
+0.51
PWR timing affects power consumption (and efficiency) of the motor under load. Set PWR timing (usually one of these values: 0.17 for high-speed motors, 0.3-0.5 for average and 0.7-1.2 for slow motors), to achieve maximum acceleration when you
mash the throttle at cruising speed.

Advanced
Setup 2/5


PWR timing2
+0.51
Analog versions of the above settings for reverse thrust mode (ie, active braking) OVS timing 005° Setting responsible for extra motor speed when the battery voltage is not high enough to achieve the maximum vehicle speed. Works like this: When the PWM cycle is nearly 100%, the controller increases the lead angle, which enables additional speed (and reduced efficiency of the motor). Only if the voltage is limiting the maximum motor speed, not the wind resistance, will this work. OVS can raise the maximum speed by reducing the efficiency of the motor. Optimal values are usually 2-4. Select a value by trial and error. Keep in mind that if you raise settings "OVS" and "ind timing" really high and run high currents, no speed limit and high RPM, the motor can quickly overheat and you can even burn up the controller. Therefore, to avoid such situations it is recommended to set the maximum speed limit when configuring profiles somewhere around 20% more than the maximum speed of your vehicle on the road.

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Re: Adaptto - manual fine tuning Thread

Post by csc » Thu Sep 14, 2017 12:16 pm

Notger can you precise your MXUS winding please ? 3t 4t etc ? It will be easier to compare with mine.

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Re: Adaptto - manual fine tuning Thread

Post by notger » Thu Sep 14, 2017 12:45 pm

csc wrote:Notger can you precise your MXUS winding please ? 3t 4t etc ? It will be easier to compare with mine.
I actually found a "solution" for my setup, i just use <1500Watts right now and do not have heat Problems.
But:
I actually do not use a MXUS i do not even use a Hub-Motor.
All my Bikes are Mid-Drive: one is a GNG-Motor Mid Drive (Kind of LightningRods) anotherone is a Torman CPD.

So thats even more challenging i think, but with keeping them under 1500-2000Watts it works out.

So i actually would love to make this thread a collection of important inputs and infos about finetuning an adaptto in general.
It's just a Pain-itA to read trough the 185 Pages of the Owners Thread if you look for some specific infos around it (sure the search helps but skips quite some important talks)

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Re: Adaptto - manual fine tuning Thread

Post by csc » Thu Sep 14, 2017 1:52 pm

Ok, noted, sorry, i can't help about your mid drive config

In my case it's a 2 x mxus 3k 3t, which seems to avoid a lot of motor heat at high speed. So the settings are influenced by a quite unusual efficiency. And it's in a 90% road environment.

I'll send my "final settings" here asap

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Re: Adaptto - manual fine tuning Thread

Post by agedashidofu » Sun Sep 17, 2017 2:55 am

Folks,

Does anyone on this thread use QS205 V3? And if so, what are the setting parameters that you use on your Adaptto?

I'm actually just starting on my build, and I keep hearing that some folks get their motor very hot with the Adaptto...

In fact, wouldn't it be a good idea if folks can share their setup & respective Adaptto settings (such as motor type, # of turns, and how they tune their Adaptto settings) - that way all of us can compare notes & share learnings.

Many thanks!

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Re: Adaptto - manual fine tuning Thread

Post by Doctorbass » Tue Sep 19, 2017 11:05 am

agedashidofu wrote:Folks,

Does anyone on this thread use QS205 V3? And if so, what are the setting parameters that you use on your Adaptto?

I'm actually just starting on my build, and I keep hearing that some folks get their motor very hot with the Adaptto...

In fact, wouldn't it be a good idea if folks can share their setup & respective Adaptto settings (such as motor type, # of turns, and how they tune their Adaptto settings) - that way all of us can compare notes & share learnings.

Many thanks!
Autodetect + some fine tuning will help.

unless you are not an Adaptto user and use sabvoton or other and need parameters?

Doc
CURRENT PROJECT: 2WD duo MXUS/Max-E ebike 32kW
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... =3&t=65764
-Fastest speed record 117 km/h on flat
-Fastest 1/4 mile@ 114km/h on flat and 16.316 sec
-Succeded to haul a 19200 pounds schoolbus!
113kmh Gianthttp://www.evalbum.com/3406
Mongoosehttp://www.evalbum.com/1947
YOUTUBE---https://m.youtube.com/user/Doctorbasss
http://twitter.com/DocbassMelancon
I speak FRENCH and english

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Re: Adaptto - manual fine tuning Thread

Post by ridethelightning » Wed Sep 20, 2017 3:13 am

agedashidofu wrote:Folks,

Does anyone on this thread use QS205 V3? And if so, what are the setting parameters that you use on your Adaptto?

I'm actually just starting on my build, and I keep hearing that some folks get their motor very hot with the Adaptto...

In fact, wouldn't it be a good idea if folks can share their setup & respective Adaptto settings (such as motor type, # of turns, and how they tune their Adaptto settings) - that way all of us can compare notes & share learnings.

Many thanks!
yes i have one with max-e,9kv
auto only worked for the halls combo, but very rough. i had to manually tune.
swapping the phases around can improve things.
ind timing is higher then for cro. i think 600~700us range
increased pwr timing really makes it feel more powerful.
i have ferro fluid and hubsinks, it rarely gets over 70c now and rapidly decreases temps again.
normal riding is~45-50c

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Re: Adaptto - manual fine tuning Thread

Post by mpmoller » Mon Oct 30, 2017 5:19 pm

Very nice thread! I will try some of this tomorrow and come back with a update!

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Re: Adaptto - manual fine tuning Thread

Post by agedashidofu » Tue Oct 31, 2017 6:23 pm

Hi folks,

Hoping to pick the brains of the more “learned” ones from Adaptto users here.

I currently have a 2wd setup with 2 adaptto max-e controllers.

For Adaptto 2wd setup, the discharge wires are only connected to one of the controllers (and not to both) - I'm guessing that the maximum battery / dc amp discharge would be limited to 140a (the capacity / limit of that one controller) instead of 2x150a = 280a. Is this the right way to think about it for Adaptto?

On other controller types where the battery discharge wires are connected to both of the controllers, normally the maximum battery amp discharge would be doubled, since they're connected to two controllers.

Thx a lot!

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