192V / 100Ah - what cells?

Raphael

10 W
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Jan 8, 2008
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Hi,

we are looking for a LiFePo4-Pack in the size of 192V and 100Ah. Has anybody some suggestions what cells to use (bigger cells prefered to lower to cellcount) and where to get an according BMS?
Estimated costs would be interesting to know, too.

Thanks,
Raphael
 
Give us some idea of attributes that would be helpful to your application.

Low cost?

High Energy density?

High Power density?

If space and weight aren't big concerns, SLA would definately be the most economical approach to take.

If you are trying to save weight, and they don't need to be omni-directional, I think that Thunder Sky makes some 100Ah cells for a reasonable cost, but I've heard they rarely seem to yeild over 70Ah unless they are very warm. 60s of the 160Ah Thunder Sky cells? That may be a low cost solution to your energy storage needs and keep the batteries in a shallow cycle for maximum lifespan.

If you are insane and looking to make a roadrace car or a nice little 500kw Dragster, LiPo would be unbeatable.

More details please! Very tough to advise on a battery with out having application specifics.

Best Wishes,
-Luke
 
It all depends on your discharge rate.
If you need up to 2C then Ping can build you a pack. But I would pay a little extra and buy a Headway pack/cells then you can get 5-10C.
 
It's for a car.
Empty weight 370kg w/o batteries.
Battery weight around 230kg.
Peak motor power around 34kW.
Definitely looking for LiFePo4, car runs now on lead acid.

So power density is not the problem, energy density is what has to be optimized.

I thought of BMI cells. Are there any bigger cells then 10Ah?
If there are only the 3.3V/10Ah cells, we need around 60s10p of that.
What are Headway cells?

So who knows a good partner for such a deal and what are the prices to be expected? Who has a BMS capable of managing such a pack?

Thanks to all of you,
Raphael
 
For Headway, if you are in the USA and budget say US$25 per cell (I'm not sure what the exact price is at the moment including air freight) then you'd be looking at:

64 cells in series (for 192V nominal, 208V operating, 237.25V off the charger)
10 cells in parallel
= 640 cells total

US$16k and you might want to budget a bit more for cell interconnect and packaging materials.

A 20.5 kWh pack sounds sweet :D
 
If that A123 pack is really made of genuine cells then it sounds quite good! A good BMS would be required to manage that many small cells.

Another option, PSI cells:
http://www.rechargeablelithiumpower.com/

A 640 cell pack would run you $24.8k in bare cells plus postage within the US.

Oh, and the headway customer service rep is a member of this forum, Victoria
 
Thanks to all of you!

Aren't PSI cells the same as BMI?
Victoria, here's an opportunity to sell a really large pack to a really well known customer (I won't say his name publicly). If your product do what he expects from them, you are sure going to have some good publicity.

I think those A123-cells are the small ones (3.3V 2.3Ah) and not the M1, unfortunately. That would create a real mess (around 44p for 100Ah and 60s for 192V, so 2640 cells - not practical). I'd love to see the M1 for that price though...

Raphael
 
Raphael said:
Thanks to all of you!

Aren't PSI cells the same as BMI?
Victoria, here's an opportunity to sell a really large pack to a really well known customer (I won't say his name publicly). If your product do what he expects from them, you are sure going to have some good publicity.

PSI/BMI/LifeBatt same cells from the same factory (if they came off the line at the same time).

I'll try to point Victoria to this thread so she can give you a quote. I don't know that Headway has BMS up to 192v however... But they do have 48v BMS so perhaps the pack could be divided into 4 series strings of 48v...

Are you in the USA or another country? For PSI cells, for example, there's different people to talk to depending if you are in North America, Europe or Australia/NZ.
 
Raphael said:
I think those A123-cells are the small ones (3.3V 2.3Ah) and not the M1, unfortunately. That would create a real mess (around 44p for 100Ah and 60s for 192V, so 2640 cells - not practical). I'd love to see the M1 for that price though...

Raphael

actually the ~123 M1 IS the 3.3V 2.3Ah cell.... its the one in the dewalt packs.... to get 19,200Wh with each cell having 7.59Wh, you'd need 2,530 cells

if you go to the DIY car thread linked here, someone is offering 50 cells for $325 in packs, welded with BMS.... you'd need about 58 of those to make a 192V pack.... and it'd cost $18850... and be 22,011Wh.... and be one bitchin pack.
 
I don't think tiny A123 cells should be used for car-sized packs unless you're drag-racing or are mass-producing the packs. Otherwise it's way too much effort and time and you just won't be approaching the charge or discharge rates it's capable of. The only benefit would be a longer lifespan than regular LiFePO4 but it'll also be more expensive just for the raw cells, I'm pretty sure. Typical ebay prices are $10/cell or $1.32 / Wh. Then you have to get a BMS and charger separately that can handle your needs.

Tesla uses old-school lithium-ion 18650s for power density but their pack is highly engineered. It's actively liquid-cooled even when the car is off (using power from the pack itself as long as it remains > 90% full) and is designed to handle a cell exploding without setting off a chain reaction.

Anyway, if I were you, I'd go with a large-sized LiFePO4 that people are already using in cars and motorcycles so we know what the performance is like and the level of support the company offers. There are many bad companies or vendors.
 
I don't think tiny A123 cells should be used for car-sized packs unless you're drag-racing or are mass-producing the packs. Otherwise it's way too much effort and time and you just won't be approaching the charge or discharge rates it's capable of.

which means you won't be stressing the cells.... which means longer life and less capacity loss after time. Now there are benefits of both, but just because you're not USING the high discharge/charge rate doesn't mean that they're automatically not as good... Not putting the cells to their limits is a VERY GOOD thing. Plus, the A123 cells are higher energy and volumetric density than prismatics (from ones I've seen). Charging can be done faster on smaller cells (like a123), on prismatics its 1/2C or thereabouts. Also, if one cell goes, you can have a fuseable link to take that one out of the pack, try doing that with prismatics. Voltage sag on prismatics compared to smaller paralleled cells can be much higher.

The only benefit would be a longer lifespan than regular LiFePO4 but it'll also be more expensive just for the raw cells, I'm pretty sure. Typical ebay prices are $10/cell or $1.32 / Wh. Then you have to get a BMS and charger separately that can handle your needs.

Ebay is way overpriced, you can get them much cheaper.....read some of the links people posted... one of them was a link to another forum with someone selling a123 packs of 50 cells in a 3.3V 115Ah configuration with welded for $325.... thats $6.50 a cell... as I also stated. and it ends up being about $1.16 a Wh. hovering just above the $1 a Wh mark.

The charger/bms argument is null... you need that either way... its required reguardless of what kind of LiFePo4. BMS for the same voltage is the same.... same number of cells in series (all parallel batteries self equalize within that parallel pack, so only one BMS channel is needed).

Tesla uses old-school lithium-ion 18650s for power density but their pack is highly engineered. It's actively liquid-cooled even when the car is off (using power from the pack itself as long as it remains > 90% full) and is designed to handle a cell exploding without setting off a chain reaction.

they use li-cobalt... unstable and volitile if overcharged/undercharged. High density, but at what cost? Also a 5 year pack life...you're talking apples and oranges. This is LiFePo4, much more stable, no cooling needed in most cases, and safer than most other chemistries.

Anyway, if I were you, I'd go with a large-sized LiFePO4 that people are already using in cars and motorcycles so we know what the performance is like and the level of support the company offers. There are many bad companies or vendors.


I think the long and the short of it, you're not basing the choice for a pack on anything that matters... so what if it takes more to assemble, thats not really a requirement is it..... So what if others are using thundersky and hi-power, A123 has good peformance and support as well. And who cares if there's more cells, you can fit more into your vehicle in a smaller space and it'l weigh less.

What he needs to do is give us the peak power levels needed from the battery pack. If he can achieve that with prismatics without stressing the cells (staying below 1-2C continuous)... then prismatics might be the best choice. If needs continuous current above 3C, then a smaller format battery might be a better choice, because each cell is at a lower C rate, but the overall pack can discharge tons of amps, hence more power. The voltage sag is much less. Sure more effort to assemble, but its a pack that is matched to his requirements.

You really can't just blindly chose batteries, they need to match the requirements of what they're being used for, thats the ONLY thing that matters as well as cost. Labor might matter to some of the lazier people here.... but I'd rather assemble 2000+ cells and have it last years, than to assemble 40 and be crying because i have to replace it in a year.
 
A123 has zero support. The only way to get the M1s is to take apart DeWalt packs and you'll get no support from DeWalt or from A123 if you get a bad cell.

0.5C charge rate is quite a lot for a car-sized pack. That would be 192V 50A to charge a 192V 100Ah pack, or nearly 10 kW. You can't draw that kind of power from a regular outlet. If you somehow found a suitable power source, you'd charge the pack from empty in just two hours, but I'm pretty sure you won't find a suitable power source. That's why cars like the Tesla charge much slower from a 110V outlet than from a 220V, or why you can get a power station to put in your garage that can feed the appropriate power. The pack is capable of much more than your home electrical system.

The guy selling those 115Ah strings just posted a few days ago. Has anyone actually bought them from him and verified all cells are working correctly? It would be easy to hide bad cells in such a string.

My comment about the BMSs was that some companies offer their own BMS and charger, which obviously isn't true for A123s.
 
I think you calculated Wh per dollar instead of dollars per Wh.

6.5$ per cell makes 0.88 dollars per watt hour.
 
bearing said:
I think you calculated Wh per dollar instead of dollars per Wh.

6.5$ per cell makes 0.88 dollars per watt hour.

oops, even better argument :) I though it sounded low... i'm bad sometimes with keeping units right while typing a thread reply.
 
A123 has zero support. The only way to get the M1s is to take apart DeWalt packs and you'll get no support from DeWalt or from A123 if you get a bad cell.
zero warranty... but if you call their tech guys, they WILL and HAVE given good information.... its NOT ideal, but its there. Moreso than some chinese knockoff companies. Does TS offer warranty? Hi-power? What other CELL MANUFACTURER has a warranty? Thats a distributor's job.

0.5C charge rate is quite a lot for a car-sized pack. That would be 192V 50A to charge a 192V 100Ah pack, or nearly 10 kW. You can't draw that kind of power from a regular outlet. If you somehow found a suitable power source, you'd charge the pack from empty in just two hours, but I'm pretty sure you won't find a suitable power source. That's why cars like the Tesla charge much slower from a 110V outlet than from a 220V, or why you can get a power station to put in your garage that can feed the appropriate power. The pack is capable of much more than your home electrical system.

Touche, saw your comment on another thread about the new MIT stuff... true its unlikely that we're even able to charge them as fast, but it was one of many of my points... you just picked the weakest point and elaborated. Care to touch on any of my other points? Still doesn't really matter... it was just one of the "pros" i listed.

The guy selling those 115Ah strings just posted a few days ago. Has anyone actually bought them from him and verified all cells are working correctly? It would be easy to hide bad cells in such a string.
Not that I know of, but he's just one source, its not impossible to get loose cells for less than $10. If you can't get a123, there's headway, K2 (DLG), phet, lifebatt, etc etc that offer small format cells that are even cheaper. Since you don't need the 80C rate of the a123, then get some 10C batteries and be done with it. This is just one guy, one example, that doesn't mean there aren't other sources.

My comment about the BMSs was that some companies offer their own BMS and charger, which obviously isn't true for A123s.
most cell MANUFACTURERS don't offer BMS, that is mostly done by resellers/distributors (like lifebatt, etc). They leave that up to the people selling the batteries to consumers.

You still don't mention ANY need to look at actual project requirements when chosing a battery pack. How can you design the pack effectively?
 
You've still not given the application information...

It's impossible to give good advice without having application information.


If I were going to make a pack for an electric car, I would jump on those 115Ah A123 cell packs. That is going to be the most simple way to build a pack, as they are all ready all welded into a block. You just play the connect 60 blocks game, and you have it. Way easier than playing the awkwardly bolt together 600 10Ah cells game.

A123 is the best in the world for LiFePO4. You are not going to find any other LiFePO4 battery that matches it in any of the ways you can evaluate battery performance. It's only drawback has been price, but at $6.50/cell all ready built into welded packs, even the price is good.

IMO, I would pay 2-3times the money to get A123 over all other LiFePO4 cells, because it's worth that much more. However, in this situation, pricing is close enough or even better than other LiFePO4 price options, which seems almost too good to be true.

Give Application information! Does it need cold weather performance? Does it burst power for acceleration? What will the average C rate look like? Does it need the ability to be speed charged for the application? How critical is space and weight?
 
www.skyenergy.com.cn

$110 for a 100ah x 3.2v prismatic Lifepo

Every other brand mentioned here is almost double that price.
 
I think he implied that the C-needs were modest since the car was previously powered by Lead Acid. But it could've been that high-current lead acid for all I know, so I agree it was somewhat vague.
 
Technologic said:
www.skyenergy.com.cn

$110 for a 100ah x 3.2v prismatic Lifepo

Every other brand mentioned here is almost double that price.

I don't think too many forum members here can read Mandarin.
 
Are those thunder sky cells before they stick a thunder sky sticker on them? Do you have a way to buy them direct? That may be a factor direct priced alternative to buying from thunder sky, or at least a similar thunder sky battery for better prices. Although, 1C discharge and massive voltage drop at 1C means that a 100Ah pack would be dropping a lot of voltage at just 100amp discharge. If you work the numbers on that, an 80Ah pack is of a low Ri cell like A123 is going to yield the same energy, and 30 times the performance potential. If you are looking to use 100Ah, I would shoot for building a +120Ah pack if you are going to be using cells with extremely poor Ri, AKA, thunder sky, Ping, Headways, etc. But again, we don't have a clue on application, perhaps it only draws 20amps peak, and Ri is a non-factor.

We need info.
 
Raphael said:
Thanks to all of you!
Aren't PSI cells the same as BMI?
Victoria, here's an opportunity to sell a really large pack to a really well known customer (I won't say his name publicly). If your product do what he expects from them, you are sure going to have some good publicity.
I think those A123-cells are the small ones (3.3V 2.3Ah) and not the M1, unfortunately. That would create a real mess (around 44p for 100Ah and 60s for 192V, so 2640 cells - not practical). I'd love to see the M1 for that price though...

I'd recommend emailing Victoria directly.

I used Headway cells in my VW Bus conversion, currently 110v80ah (photo below), eventually I'll probably get to 180v80ah. What size is the current lead-acid pack? What is the Motor-side rating on your controller? What range are you looking to get?

For Headway, if you are in the USA and budget say US$25 per cell

That estimate is way off. I bought cells last year for $16.50 +$4 air shipping, $20.50 each. This year I bought 120 more for $11.50+$4 shipping, $15.50 each. It's probably more for smaller orders, but for a car-sized pack... You can get T-Sky cells on ebay from JungleMotors for the same price, but I prefer the Headways.

-JD

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=8012

file.php
 
swbluto said:
I don't think too many forum members here can read Mandarin.

Luckily they have english translations... and the batteries have been tested

http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/sky-energy-tk90aha-test-0-35-28708.html

I think paying twice or three times that much for headway or Yesa is a bit of a foolish purchase decision considering.

Not trying to pawn them off on anyone at all, just seems foolish to mention the most expensive products first and not link them by lowest prices first.

Anything over 40cents/wh in lifepo prices is way too high right now. These companies (large prismatic pack manufacturers) are starved. Even Thundersky itself has dropped to the low 30 cent/wh range.

at $20/shipped headways are double that price...
 
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