$200 Factory midtail from a Genesis 32" wheel bike..

[neptronix]

So i've been obsessed with longtails and midtails since i first hooked my cargo bike up, for the extra battery room, and the plusher ride, as more of the rider weight is shifted forward and thus can be suspended by the front fork.

You get some of the plush ride characteristics of something like a yuba mundo or extracycle, but without all the extra length which may not be desired or even needed. You can put a pair of panniers closer to the rider weight, which makes their weight more middle-neutral and thus handle better.

But even better - at high power levels, midtails prevent wheelies due to more rider weight being up front, which is a big problem once you get into large motors

So in other words, longtails rock, but so do midtails!

Here are examples of midtails:

Kinn bikes' midtail.

Kona MinUte

Yuba's 'Boda Boda'

So to get to the point :lol: ,i noticed that walmart was selling a 32" wheeled bike recently..

http://www.walmart.com/ip/20658229?...1=g&wl2=&wl3=21486607510&wl4=&wl5=pla&veh=sem

Just at a glance, it looked like this bad boy had a pretty long wheelbase for a bike with such comically large wheels. So i took the image into photoshop and shrunk the wheels by 81.25% ( 26" is ~81.25% of 32" )

The result is a bike that looks even longer than a Kona MinUte!

Only downside i can think of: you *may* have to go with shorter cranks than stock with a bike like this. 165MM would be as short as you need to go if you run tires larger than 2.0".

So if you are looking for a midtail, but turned off by prices, availability, or other factors, then this seems like a super cheap way to go about it. Just wanted to tip y'all off while these bikes are still available to the public. They just came out last year i think - so they should be around for a while.

 

[neptronix]

Another idea for a midtail on a budget..

An oldschool Scwinn iZip is another fine midtail frame. Yes, it's heavy, being made out of crap-grade steel. But it is rather long and would be just as good if you can deal with the weight.

I had one of these at one point and didn't appreciate it at the time - but i remember the longer wheelbase being a lot more stable. It had better riding characteristics than many hardtail MTBs i've ridden in my life, but i couldn't figure out why at the time. :lol: The only reason i mention these is that they will occasionally pop up on craigslist and other sites, because the battery is dead and the user doesn't feel like replacing it, so they can be found for $100-$200. You could make a sweet blender out of that loud brushed motor, down the line anyway... lol

But the downside may be that the front fork is 1". There are still some suspension forks for 1" tubes though, still... but they are mostly made by RST ad other budget brands.

 

[dogman dan]

Lots of those generic china ebikes are midtails.

Not exactly the same, but the ever so slightly longer wheelbase made this bike ride real nice. It was a Schwinn meridian trike, but it was possible to take off the trike rear end, and make it into a nice cruiser. I definitely see the appeal of a midtail.




The downsides for me were that I found that pedal forward hurt my back after about 10 miles, and it was about one inch too long to fit on a city bus bike rack.

 

[spinningmagnets]

Genesis 32-inch, $200
http://www.walmart.com/ip/20658229?...1=g&wl2=&wl3=21486607510&wl4=&wl5=pla&veh=sem

I really like this idea, cant beat the price. If you want the BB to be a couple inches up and a couple inches forward (semi-recumbent like a Rans, Day-6, Townie), you could attach a "sliding bottom bracket shell" to the bottom of the downtube just in front of where the stock one was. BB height back where its comfortable, and a little forward for a more comfortable posture...I would even make the rear wheel a 24-inch wheel with a fat cruiser tire and a Thudbuster seat-post. Lots of room for a mid-drive motor, and a triangle battery pack.

 

[dogman dan]

The more I look at that genesis with smaller wheels, the more I like it. I couldn't ride it myself, since I can't tolerate pedal forward. But I'm sold on longer wheelbases for street. I love true longtail, but others don't.

Alloy frame, so no welding on some disk mounts. I would have to remain a coaster brake bike. So mid drive or front hub only. Lowering the ride height, pedal strike might be an issue. It was on the Schwinn when converted to a two wheeler. You just had to learn to stop pedaling on all corners. Easy enough.

 

[neptronix]

I didn't do this in the image, but you could flip the seat post forward in order to get it to offset towards the front, which would minimize the 'pedal forward' design even further. Then you'd just need to get shorter bars as well.

If you have a rear hub motor, then regen can do the job that a rear brake does. This is fine for street riding, but not great for offroading where you need careful modulation of the brake.

That's how i set up my 20" wheeled bikes. Works good to 40mph if you have a 203mm disc rotor up front.
Replace the front fork with a tall 26" suspension fork or shorter 29" sus. fork and you can get that 203mm disc brake.

I like true longtail too, in fact i like *your* bike design the most. If i could do it, i'd do almost exactly what you did, but a little shorter.

 

[Drunkskunk]

32" tired bike could be interesting for a number of reasons. I like the look of that thing better with the 26" on it, but a big wheel bike could be fun

 

[veloman]

This is a great thread, thanks for posting, also for that sliding bb, spinningmagnets.

I like the concept of these midtails, but would need to add rear suspension. After riding an izip Zima yesterday I am done with rigid frame ebikes, wanting my dualie back!

 

[spinningmagnets]

I like the concept of these midtails, but would need to add rear suspension

DIY full-suspension longtail cheap
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=19131&p=278822#p292479

 

[Rassy]

If you have a rear hub motor, then regen can do the job that a rear brake does. This is fine for street riding, but not great for offroading where you need careful modulation of the brake.

The Genesis 29er that I have since given to a sister came with decent rim brakes so just had to put new KoolStop pads on it. But on both of my trikes I wanted to add rear brakes. The NuVinci has the mounting for the rotor so all that was needed was something to hold the caliper. I don't weld so I got a universal kit that didn't fit at all. Made a flat plate that bolts onto the axle, plus another point to keep it in place, and shaped it to fit the caliper. Works great.

 

[neptronix]

Speaking of genesis 29ers...
They do have a shiny cruiser bike hangin' out at wal-mart. Looks very well built, i think it's called a GX7.
My Trek 4500 is an extra large 22.5" frame, and i compared the wheelbase of both bikes the other day, the GX7's wheelbase was about 3-4 inches longer.

OK, so that's not really a midtail. But if wheelie prevention is what you're looking for because you have high power, then maybe it's not half bad, eh?

 

[neptronix]

Speaking of the $200 figure....

http://www.walmart.com/ip/32-Genesis-Men-s-Beach-Cruiser-Bike-White/20658229

It looks like this bike is on sale for $175, if you get it in white, blue, or green.

Finding a suitable 48 hole rear hub with a disc brake attachment so that the rear 32" wheel could be kept and a rear disc brake sprocket could be used.. is apparently a challenge.

I'm really tempted to order this today, maybe i get to be the guinea pig.

 

[neptronix]

Well, i guess i am the guinea pig since i couldn't convince anyone else to be :lol:

Can anyone here help me find a single speed 29er wheel ( 110? 120mm axle? ) with disc brake for the back of this bike? I've had a hard time finding one for under $200. I know they're out there.

 

[Thud]

Well, i guess i am the guinea pig since i couldn't convince anyone else to be :lol:

Can anyone here help me find a single speed 29er wheel ( 110? 120mm axle? ) with disc brake for the back of this bike? I've had a hard time finding one for under $200. I know they're out there.

Your going to have to roll your own for that one I am afraid.
I been looking for a source of free-wheel compatible disc hubs for awhile.
Only thing I find is the choppers US unit (quando)
http://www.choppersus.com/store/product/1368/Std-Rear-Hub-FW-Disc-BLK-36/
And after that you will need to re-space the hub on the axel.

 

[neptronix]

Yeah, i actually ordered something from them before, didn't turn out too well. The hub came totally ungreased internally and spun really bad.. i'm thinking this is chinese junk to be honest.

BUT....I realized that if you took the end-nuts off of a shimano hub, you can shave off ~12mm really easily. Maybe it's possible to replace those with a thinner nut, to get a standard shimano hub down to about 125mm? that wouldn't be much of a stretch in a 120mm dropout, ya know?

 

[Thud]

Totally do-able.
The freewheel hubs typically can be spaced to 120mm. Free hubs are another animal.

The quando from choppers us are sketchy...but improve dramatically with a decent set of balls & cones. All inexpensive & on the shelf at your LBS.
Short of that, it's cut & fit a custom hub...the fat bike guys are splicing together hubs to fit different applications, we can do the same for our purposes if nothing else presents.

I'll be watching.

 

[neptronix]

Interesting...

Yeah, this is a freehub i measured and was talking about.
Looking at it, i see the problem now that you mention it.
Thanks for the tip about the threaded freewheel hub though, i wasn't aware of that. I see how that could be a hell of a lot easier as you could adjust things a few MM more.
Maybe i'd need to move the whole hub on the axle a few MM one way or another way to give me clearance for the disc.
I already have a short 5 speed freewheel which may work to give me variable gearing, but i do expect to just throw a BMX freewheel on there and do a single speed designed for 20mph.

Any idea where i can get a freewheeled disc brake hub..? solid axle would be really nice...

 

[jkbrigman]

Neps, you know what you need and that's A-OK (your experiments are always molto bene) but I GOTs to speak up for the "slightly crank forward" townie-like bikes and their ilk. I chose that type of bike when I busted my azz test-riding a mountain bike I wanted to convert. I limped away convinced "longer wheelbase" were the keys to the kingdom and I've never looked back. This Genesis you've found might be the ticket, but man that bent top tube and freakishly large wheels kinda suck. Can you get a Schwalbe or a Hookworm in that size?

Electra Townie:
http://www.rei.com/product/851139/electra-townie-21d-bike-2013
I'm seeing the bike on various craigslist for $300-range. You know you want it.

The Phat Bike upright riding posture is horrible for aero (I joke that I'm a "meat parachute" on it), but I love the bike. Love love love the bike. I got an older year held-over for $400-and-change out the door from LBS. Yes, it's aluminum and the dropouts are crap, but two ebikes.ca rear torque arms and I'm good-to-go.

The space between the rear fender and the seat tube is ideal for the controller - I'll be moving mine there shortly. You can make the battery cable and phase wires to the motor absurdly short from that position. The HUGE triangle is perfect for all the LiPo you can load the bike down with, and the huge wheels/tires have been fantastic: no worries at all about crap in the road.

By the way: with the Crystalyte I hit 40mph on the bike, smooth as can be, no rear suspension, no thudbuster. Guess I gotta mod my .sig someday soon! I wonder out loud what that HS Crystalyte would do in a 26" wheel with a 2" tire? Would you have the fastest "stock motored" bike on the forum?

However, I could just be babbling. What if you aren't going to be happy unless you specify a bike from the ground-up and have something completely custom built? If you COULD, what would that look like? Probably not like that Genesis.

You talked about modding "da bomb": why wouldn't you just slice off everything rear of the seat tube and have your welder dude rebuild it as a mid-bike? Then you could have rear disk, INSANE dropouts and whatever width and chainline your Frankenstein heart desires. Heck, find the right mountain bike and you can have DS by welding on only a bracket for the shock on the top and a tubular hinge at the bottom. If you can't sell "da bomb", why not go-for-broke with it and do it dogman style?

JKB

 

[spinningmagnets]

Nep, this is the long way around this problem, but you can find a flip-flop hub the 120mm width that you want, it has right-hand threads on both sides. You can attach one of the adapters below to put a disc on the left side.

ebay used flip-flop for $30, 32H
http://www.ebay.com/itm/gt-mohawk-flip-flop-hubs-/281088157402?pt=Cycling_Parts_Accessories&hash=item417228e6da

This is a typical fixed/freewheel, high flange rear hub. Quite often they're available in 120mm and 130mm OLD to fit different width dropouts. These hubs generally have solid axles without quick releases to prevent the hub from slipping and slackening your chain. The right side is for a fixed cog. (The hub in the picture has a lockring installed already). The left side is for a single speed freewheel.

http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=7192&p=697617#p697617

 

[neptronix]

Spinningmagnets, you're awesome! Have i ever told you that?

OK, so are these flip flop hubs you linked to special in any way, or will any ordinary one do fine?

Will i have problems driving a sprocket on the disc brake side, because the threads go in a different direction on each side - right?

 

[neptronix]

http://www.staton-inc.com/store/pro...ge_Hub_Left_and_right_hand_threads-885-0.html

I'm not sure if this is useful, i suppose i am not visualizing which direction things are spinning in correctly.

 

[spinningmagnets]

The Staton hub you linked has a left-handed thread on the left side. That is so when a motor drives a sprocket on the left, the top of the sprocket being pulled forward drives the FW into the hub, tightening it.

If you put a disc brake on the left with right-handed threads, the caliper is pulling the top of the disc back...also tightening it towards the center of the hub.

 

[neptronix]

I see.
But a motor on a right hand thread is going to dethread itself on the other side. I don't think a lockring can prevent that.
This is not a problem if i go fixed gear for pedaling, and reverse the hub.
But i'm not cool with that, so..

Maybe i will go with one of the staton-inc 120mm hub setups. They sell sprockets that thread onto the left hand side of their hub. This is actually a different type of thread than the right, but it works with their sprockets.

http://www.staton-inc.com/store/cat..._Roller_Chain_1_2_Pitch_x_1_8_Width-50-7.html

They make a bunch of sprockets for single speed ( #410 ) chain. I guess this probably limits my power to 1kW-2kW, but that's okay for what I want to build here.

 

[spinningmagnets]

I "think" #410 sprockets are a little thick for bicycle chain, you could thin the teeth a little with a file/angle-grinder and run #415H chain, I read somewhere that #415H is pretty strong.

 

[neptronix]

The bike arrives tomorrow !